Salvation in the BofM

[Pamatridis]

I would appreciate any and all input on this subject.

I am looking for insights on reconciling the teachings of salvation in the book of Mormon with other restoration scriptures (specifically, the D&C).

Alma 12:12-18 teaches that all those who die in their sins will suffer the second death with Satan and his dominion AFTER the resurrection.

This is a recurring theme in the book of Mormon (especially the Book of Alma).

D&C 76 teaches that only the Sons of Perdition will suffer this fate, being assigned to the Telestial or even Terrestrial kingdom does not match with what is taught by Alma.

I would love to hear what you think.

Thanks.

[Justice]

Words have more than one meaning. There are instances in the Book of Mormon where prophets say "hell" but mean Spirit Prison.

The gist of your question is that repentance is the answer. If one does not repent and have their sins covered, or washed clean, by the atonement of Christ, then they will have to pay for their sins themselves. This means they suffer what Christ suffered (D&C 19).

Whether this is a permanent state for them or a temporary one is the issue. Sons of perdition (those who know and yet still deny) will be in this permanent state, while those who "die in their sins" never having repented will be in this state only temporary until the utmost farthing has been paid.

So many things in the scriptures overlap that they can be confusing if you take the words too literally, and ignore their message, or don't try to fit what they say to revealed truth.

[Pamatridis]

Well...this is pretty clear. A chronological series of events is given in Alma 12 -- death, resurrection, judgment, Hell (perdition). Hell in this chronological sequence is described as a place where those go who died as to a temporal death "in their sins". I understand what you are trying to say -- but truthfully put, that is not what the scripture says. I know what modern day revelation says, but I am talking about what Alma is saying. Is Alma wrong? Is Alma mistaken? Was Alma working under less than a complete understanding of the plan as we know it today?

Whether this is a permanent state for them or a temporary one is the issue. Sons of perdition (those who know and yet still deny) will be in this permanent state, while those who "die in their sins" never having repented will be in this state only temporary until the utmost farthing has been paid.

Modern revelation makes it clear that at the end of the 1000 years, Hell will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone and those receiving a telestial inheritance will come out of Hell. Those still in Hell after the resurrection are only Sons of Perdition.

So many things in the scriptures overlap that they can be confusing if you take the words too literally, and ignore their message, or don't try to fit what they say to revealed truth.

I am not sure what to make of this? In other words, don't believe what they say...but what you think they should say as compared to something else that you think you understand? Sounds like truth hasn't been REVEALED.

Thanks for your insight.

[Justice]

I'm saying you can understand something differently than what the author of the scripture was thinking. So, you should study and pray before you assume an isolated scripture contradicts the teachings of the church.

This sounds like a set-up question, where you were waiting to trap anyone who posted. You know I didn't mean to doubt what is revealed, nor did I mean Alma did not understand the plan of redemption. Some of the greatest insight we have is from Alma.

So that we can be clear, you should quote the exact scriptures you're referring to, and clearly point out how you think they contradict. Then I can offer specific comment, since you apparently don't like general advice.

[Moksha]

Alma displays much more of a fire and brimstone 'lake-o-fire' understanding and the D&C has a more Universalist approach. Personally, I like the Universalist approach.

[JohnnyRudick]

Alma displays much more of a fire and brimstone 'lake-o-fire' understanding and the D&C has a more Universalist approach. Personally, I like the Universalist approach.

Not me:angry:

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees,

hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for

ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are

entering to go in.

Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!

for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long

prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!

for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is

made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Matthew 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say,

Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever

shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Matthew 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the

gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

Matthew 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is

nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he

is guilty.

Matthew 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the

gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

Matthew 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar,

sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

Matthew 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by

it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

Matthew 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by

the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!

for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted

the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith:

these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Matthew 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and

swallow a camel.

Matthew 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!

for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but

within they are full of extortion and excess.

Matthew 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is

within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean

also.

Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!

for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear

beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and

of all uncleanness.

Matthew 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto

men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!

because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the

sepulchres of the righteous,

Matthew 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our

fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood

of the prophets.

Matthew 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that

ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Matthew 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye

escape the damnation of hell?

Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and

wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and

crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues,

and persecute them from city to city:

Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood

shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the

blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the

temple and the altar.

Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall

come upon this generation.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the

prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often

would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen

gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me

henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the

name of the Lord.

Bro. Rudick

[rameumptom]

The key to understanding the Book of Mormon is on the term, "salvation." For the Nephites, it meant to be saved from hellfire and the 2nd death. This is ALSO how the term is used in D&C 76. Some members and GAs have confused the terminology in the past by equating salvation with exaltation.

The 2nd death occurs AFTER the resurrection. Still, Alma explained to his son Coriantumr that there was a space of time before the resurrection where we would await the resurrection. The Spirit World was and IS part of the time of the probationary period that we have (something many LDS do not understand).

In Alma 41, we read:

4 And if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil. Therefore, all things shall be restored to their proper order, every thing to its natural frame—mortality raised to immortality, corruption to incorruption—raised to endless happiness to inherit the kingdom of God, or to endless misery to inherit the kingdom of the devil, the one on one hand, the other on the other—

5 The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness (my note: levels of heaven/happiness), or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil; for as he has desired to do evil all the day long even so shall he have his reward of evil when the night cometh. (see note below as to when the "night cometh" for sons of perdition).

6 And so it is on the other hand. If he hath repented of his sins, and desired righteousness until the end of his days, even so he shall be rewarded unto righteousness.

7 aThese are they that are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they that are taken out, that are delivered from that endless night of darkness; and thus they stand or fall; for behold, they are their own bjudges, whether to do good or do evil.

When does the "night cometh"? It comes when there no longer is any time to repent, which is AFTER the resurrection. If people repent, in this life or in the spirit world, they are rescued from the 2nd death. Celestial and Terrestrial people tend to repent of the majority of their sins in this life. Telestial will be stubborn, requiring some period in spirit prison/hell, suffering for their sins, before they are humbled enough to repent (see Alma 32 - compelled to be humble, Alma 36 - for Alma's experience). And they receive the level of happiness they have desired (Telestial, Terrestrial or Celestial). Edited July 6, 2009 by rameumptom

[Moksha]

Johnny, those scribes and Pharisees sound pretty fire and brimstone to me. However, that fire and brimstone does not jive with LDS cosmology, which seems to be an inspired synthesis of the also inspired ideas of Swedenborg (three levels of Heaven with the Celestial being the highest) and Universalism (which does not send 90% of those who ever lived to an outer darkness). I think Joseph Smith was right in tune with God's wishes in his synthesis.

[Pamatridis]

Great insights, sorry if my abruptness offends -- this is not a bait question.

The key to understanding the Book of Mormon is on the term, "salvation." For the Nephites, it meant to be saved from hellfire and the 2nd death. This is ALSO how the term is used in D&C 76. Some members and GAs have confused the terminology in the past by equating salvation with exaltation.

This is an interesting insight that I really like. I will have to process that for a while -- I am annoyed by the idea that every prophet in every dispensation has thought the the english equivalent "salvation" has had the exact same meaning. I think this is a misunderstanding perpetuated by BRM. He went so far as to say that he knew of only three places in scripture where Salavation didn't mean Exaltation.

Apparently the Nephites did see Eternal Life as a greater form of Salvation, much like we see it today?

The 2nd death occurs AFTER the resurrection. Still, Alma explained to his son Coriantumr that there was a space of time before the resurrection where we would await the resurrection. The Spirit World was and IS part of the time of the probationary period that we have (something many LDS do not understand).

We know that the second death occurs after the resurrection. So what do we make of Alma 12:16 "And now behold, I say unto you then [after resurrection] cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness."

Has Alma just left out the concept of post mortal repentance...because he makes this statement directly about people who "die in [their] sins, as to a temporal death." This statement surely applies to the Sons of Perdition, but it also applies to a great number of people who will not end up in Perdition, but rather in varying degrees of glory.

I know it is impossible for any prophet to express the complexities of the plan within just a few versus. What I am looking at are specific instances in the Book of Mormon where, in context, parts of the plan are left out or not communicated. I, like most on the forum, believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God -- this is a given. What is strange is the way we read the word of God and then say, "Well, he doesn't mean what he says...what he really means is..."

[Hemidakota]

I would appreciate any and all input on this subject.

I am looking for insights on reconciling the teachings of salvation in the book of Mormon with other restoration scriptures (specifically, the D&C).

Alma 12:12-18 teaches that all those who die in their sins will suffer the second death with Satan and his dominion AFTER the resurrection.

This is a recurring theme in the book of Mormon (especially the Book of Alma).

D&C 76 teaches that only the Sons of Perdition will suffer this fate, being assigned to the Telestial or even Terrestrial kingdom does not match with what is taught by Alma.

I would love to hear what you think.

Thanks.

Beside everyone else post, let me post Professor Millet works with interrupting the Book of Mormon by listing each verse in Alma 12:12 thru 18:

13. Then we shall be condemned] See Alma 32:38-40.

14. Our words, our works, and our thoughts are but illustrations, evidences of what we really are or have become. Those who seek with all their hearts to come unto Christ and be perfected in him; who desire earnestly to forsake sin and sinfulness; who yearn, who hunger and thirst after righteousness-these shall in time have their beans changer transformed by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost. They speak "not as other men" (JST, Matthew 3:25). They perform the works of righteousness, not alone because such is required of them but also because they desire to do so, because it is the right thing to do. Their thoughts are upon good things, upon noble things, uplifting things, because their eye is single to the glory of God. They are not perfect, for they still err occasionally in judgment, speak or work or think what they should not. But their desires are to be like and with God, and they therefore repent speedily (D&C 109:21) and return without let or hindrance to the path of peace.

14. If we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us] Like Alma, who desired at the apogee of his agony to become extinct (Alma 36:15), the wicked would rather face anything but their God. (See also Mormon 9:1-5; Hosea 10:8; Luke 23:30.) Such, however, will not be possible.

15. Acknowledge ... that all his judgments are just] In the Day of Judgment, following the resurrection, there will be no disputing as to one's goodness or one's eternal station. In that day when we shall see as we are seen and know as we are known, every person shall be confronted with what he or she has become. No facade. No pretense. No sham. We shall face up to truth, diamond truth, truth which will be sharper than a two-edged sword.

16. A. second death, which is a spiritual death] See commentary on Helaman 14:16-18.

17. Their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone] The suffering to which the wicked are subjected takes place in the postmortal spirit world. This is hell, both a place and a state of mind. Concerning hell as a state of mind, Joseph Smith explained: "A man is his own tormenter and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstones (Teachings, p. 357.)

17-18. For all except the sons of perdition this suffering is eternal only in the sense that it is God's suffering and he is eternal (see D&C 19:4-12). It will come to an end at the time of the second resurrection (at the end of the Millennium). The sons of perdition, those who have known the power and goodness of God and who then deny and defy that power, shall indeed suffer in outer darkness forever. For those who reject the gospel and sneer at its saving power, it is as though there had been no redemption made, as though Christ had never come into the world, as though there had been a Fall but no hope for deliverance from it.

[JohnnyRudick]

Johnny, those scribes and Pharisees sound pretty fire and brimstone to me. However, that fire and brimstone does not jive with LDS cosmology, which seems to be an inspired synthesis of the also inspired ideas of Swedenborg (three levels of Heaven with the Celestial being the highest) and Universalism (which does not send 90% of those who ever lived to an outer darkness). I think Joseph Smith was right in tune with God's wishes in his synthesis.

That was the Lord Jesus Christ.

The head of this Church and Family.

He felt they had it coming.

Laying it out for them in a way they could understand.

there is a place for frankness and He found it.

Bro. Rudick

[Hemidakota]

Alma displays much more of a fire and brimstone 'lake-o-fire' understanding and the D&C has a more Universalist approach. Personally, I like the Universalist approach.

Alma had a personal 'teaching opportunity' since he was given the experience of real hell being in that state of three days...

[Pamatridis]

That was the Lord Jesus Christ.

The head of this Church and Family.

He felt they had it coming.

Laying it out for them in a way they could understand.

there is a place for frankness and He found it.

I agree, we underestimate the importance and function of Hell in the plan. I lean to a more universalist approach in the end; however, getting there is a thorny path for many, many, even the majority of people. Nobody understood the purpose and place of Hell more than Alma. However, once the justice of God has been satisfied and the individual soul brought to repentance -- the atoning blood of Christ can then be applied to the individual in the process of sanctification/glorification. Hell is an important state for many, many people.

[Hemidakota]

I will attest, I have tasted the absent of the Spirit and felt the pains of sin where I was left to myself in repenting or paying for them when I refused to heed the Godhead. What ever Alma felt, no mortal words can described the anguish of a bitter soul or the absent of the comforter - the Holy Ghost.

[rameumptom]

We know that the second death occurs after the resurrection. So what do we make of Alma 12:16 "And now behold, I say unto you then [after resurrection] cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness."

Has Alma just left out the concept of post mortal repentance...because he makes this statement directly about people who "die in [their] sins, as to a temporal death." This statement surely applies to the Sons of Perdition, but it also applies to a great number of people who will not end up in Perdition, but rather in varying degrees of glory.

Rameumptom: All those who have not repented of their sins in this world or the Spirit World; all those who have refused to accept Christ as their Savior; all those who insist on following Lucifer and darkness, even when suffering through hell in the Spirit Prison, will be those who will become Sons of Perdition and cast out into Outer Darkness for eternity. They will forever spiritually die, because they have completely refused to accept Christ's atonement.

Remember, it is probably easier to repent of sins here than in the Spirit World. Alma's focus was to get them to repent NOW, rather than wait until the Spirit World. Why? Because the longer we wait to repent and develop faith in Christ, the less time we have to repent, turn our lives around, and receive the fulness of his glory. If we become someone dark and evil, then it will require a lot of effort to change enough to not become a son of perdition. Why is it so hard for murderers to repent? Because they have sunk down so low that they are worthy of perdition, and their souls have been greatly scarred by such a sin. They are dark, and the climb back up into Christ's grace is a very difficult one. Most will probably only achieve the Telestial kingdom, as they have sunk so low in evil that most will not make the effort to do more than just barely be saved by the skin of their teeth. This isn't because Christ doesn't want to save them, but because the same being we are here will the the being we are in the spirit world. If we refused to repent here, what are the chances of us quickly repenting there? In fact, most of them will probably have to be compelled to repent.

Finally, remember that Alma, in talking with his sons, admitted to not knowing all the details about the resurrection, etc. It is possible he didn't understand salvation as well in his earlier years as he did in his later ones.

I agree that often the scriptures do not easily give us all the details we would normally like. That is why the Lord gave us additional information in the D&C - to fill the holes left by the older writings. It is very possible we have many teachings not included (or at least not taught in depth) in the Bible or Book of Mormon. Baptism for the dead and eternal marriage come to mind. We have continuing revelation for a reason.

And we are eligible for personal revelation of our own on these topics, as well.

[rameumptom]

That was the Lord Jesus Christ.

I agree, we underestimate the importance and function of Hell in the plan. I lean to a more universalist approach in the end; however, getting there is a thorny path for many, many, even the majority of people. Nobody understood the purpose and place of Hell more than Alma. However, once the justice of God has been satisfied and the individual soul brought to repentance -- the atoning blood of Christ can then be applied to the individual in the process of sanctification/glorification. Hell is an important state for many, many people.

I also agree with this. Alma understood that many require being "compelled" to be humbled and to repent. In fact, it required him going through hell for three days to compel him to be humble.

Only those who refuse to be humbled, either willingly or compelled, will not receive a kingdom of glory. Why? Because they will personally reject it.

Thankfully, we do believe in a near universal salvation.

[Pamatridis]

Rameumptom: All those who have not repented of their sins in this world or the Spirit World; all those who have refused to accept Christ as their Savior; all those who insist on following Lucifer and darkness, even when suffering through hell in the Spirit Prison, will be those who will become Sons of Perdition and cast out into Outer Darkness for eternity. They will forever spiritually die, because they have completely refused to accept Christ's atonement.

This is interesting. I have never considered that some might not finally choose to repent -- other than those we traditionally call Sons of Perdition because of their activities in the flesh.

Consider D&C 76:31-39 It gives a very succinct definition of those who will end up in Perdition:

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

I was not aware that a 'sinner' having never been brought fully into the light could ever become a Son of Perdition...not even through hell. At one point, Joseph commented: "No man can commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, not in this life, until he receives the Holy Ghost but they must do it in this world."

Finally, remember that Alma, in talking with his sons, admitted to not knowing all the details about the resurrection, etc. It is possible he didn't understand salvation as well in his earlier years as he did in his later ones.

I believe this 100%. Difficult as it might be to assimilate, but something we might have to come to grips with. I think it is a mistaken notion that all prophets have had the same light and knowledge that we do today in the light of the restoration. (see D&C 124:41). Without a doubt, some have had more, but is seems as obvious that others did not -- or they were put under the command that Alma discusses in Alma 12:9-11.

If anyone has additional information on a person becoming a Son of Perdition by not repenting in Hell, I would like to see it.

[martybess]

I think Samuel the Lamanite explains it in Helaman 14:17-19

Here's the key (repentance)

17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.

18 Yea, and it bringeth to pass the condition of repentance, that whosoever repenteth the same is not hewn down and cast into the fire; but whosoever repenteth not is hewn down and cast into the fire; and there cometh upon them again a spiritual death, yea, a second death, for they are cut off again as to things pertaining to righteousness.

19 Therefore repent ye, repent ye, lest by knowing these things and not doing them ye shall suffer yourselves to come under condemnation, and ye are brought down unto this second death.

-Marty

[Hemidakota]

When it comes to judgment God does not and will not hold anyone accountable for a gospel law of which he or she was ignorant. Every person will have opportunity— here or hereafter—to accept and apply the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Only the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, is capable of "keeping the gate" and thus discerning completely the hearts and minds of mortal men; He alone knows when a person has received sufficient knowledge or impressions to constitute a valid opportunity to receive the Plan of Salvation. Joseph had reaffirmed that the Lord will judge men not only by their actions, but also by their attitudes—the desires of their hearts (Alma 41:3).

[Pamatridis]

I hate to bring the forum back to the main focus. BUT. The point I was making in asking the original question is, "how do we interpret the teachings of a living church?" For example, has anyone considered what the doctrine of the church was on February 15, 1832 regarding Salvation? This concept was based on Biblical and Book of Mormon teachings. Then, do we appreciate the change that occurred on February 16, 1832? How do we interpret the older teachings in light of the new? The same could be said for each of the great doctrinal sections in the D&C which deal with the next life, judgement, resurrection, SALVATION, DAMNATION, ETC. Lastly comes D&C 138, probably of greater significance than we give it credit for. Again, what impact do such revelations have on our understanding of prior revelation, the Book of Mormon being one of them. I think this is a great discussion.

[rameumptom]

But that's the beauty of continuing revelation! How do we Christians understand the Old Testament, except from viewing it from a New Testament point of view? The revelation of Jesus Christ and his apostles directly affects how we understand previous revelation and teachings.

So it is today. We look at our current knowledge and truth with thanksgiving, but also with an understanding that there is always more to be revealed by the hand of God.

Socrates was right when he admitted that he knew nothing (and implying that the rest of us know even less, thanks to the Socratic method). Even the greatest scholars of today know virtually nothing compared to the currently available truth in the universe, which is very small compared to all the truth in the universe.