The Godhead

[beefche]

John 17

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be bone, as we are.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are bone:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

I find it difficult to understand why others find it impossible to see that Jesus is not speaking to a mirror here. It seems very clear to me that he is speaking to Father. He explains that He and Father are one and He wishes all His followers to be one with Them.

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Do you not believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost?

I can worship the Father and worship the Son and not have that worship diminish nor has Their glory diminished.

[Misshalfway]

I am not sure they read this passage that day in Nicea.

[Jim108]

John 17

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be bone, as we are.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are bone:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

I find it difficult to understand why others find it impossible to see that Jesus is not speaking to a mirror here. It seems very clear to me that he is speaking to Father. He explains that He and Father are one and He wishes all His followers to be one with Them.

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Do you not believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost?

I can worship the Father and worship the Son and not have that worship diminish nor has Their glory diminished.

You are very close here, there is another answer. Take away the religion and think with the spirit.

[Just_A_Guy]

The only explanations I have seen for this from a trinitarian standpoint are either that a) the conversation is taking place for the benefit of the viewers; b) God "possessed" the body of the man Jesus and periodically left Him, necessitating verbal dialogue (e.g. "My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?"); or c) the human element of Jesus was talking to the divine element of Jesus.

I'd be interested to hear other (EDIT: trinitarian) explanations, as I find none of the above terribly convincing.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[pam]

I don't think she's close..I think she's spot on.

[pam]

Gordon B. Hinckley

“I believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

“I was baptized in the name of these three. I was married in the name of these three. I have no question concerning their reality and their individuality. That individuality was made apparent when Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan. There in the water stood the Son of God. His Father’s voice was heard declaring His divine Sonship, and the Holy Ghost was manifest in the form of a dove (see Matt. 3:16–17).

“I am aware that Jesus said that they who had seen Him had seen the Father. Could not the same be said by many a son who resembles his parent?

“When Jesus prayed to the Father, certainly He was not praying to Himself!” (“The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,” Ensign, Nov. 1986, 51)

[jameslentz]

i've had trinitarians explain it as "God is all powerful and can do anything He wants and I'm not going to understand exactly how it is possible just that it is"....so i usually just say ok and move on because there is no discussion after that because no matter what is said or what is read it is "God can do anything".

[ploomf]

You know it's funny, I wasn't raised in the LDS church. I wasn't raised in any church. I wasn't really taught about religion (unless you count watching Jesus Christ Superstar with my mother every Easter). My first brush with religion was when I was in kindergarten, I went to an after school program hosted by a Baptist church for a few years but I'll be honest, I went because my friends went and because they had snacks and fun crafts, I didn't really pay attention to the religious lessons.

As I grew older I started to think more about God and religion, I read the bible and went to a few churches. Even before the church when I thought about God and Jesus I always pictured them as separate persons. It never crossed my mind that they could be the same being manifested in different ways. The first time I encountered this was in a book I read and I remember thinking, well that’s silly, that’s not what God or Jesus is like at all. I guess that’s what made joining the LDS church so easy, it fit in perfectly with what I already believed.

[Justice]

You are very close here, there is another answer. Take away the religion and think with the spirit.

This is cryptic.

Jim, what do you really think?

[Justice]

“I am aware that Jesus said that they who had seen Him had seen the Father. Could not the same be said by many a son who resembles his parent?

Not just resembles physically, but characteristically too. He acts like the Father.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Along with these verses, I highlighted all the verses in the NT that indicate Jesus and God the Father are separate people.

Guess how many verses I found in total? Over 200....

Nearly every time Jesus speaks he defers to someone he calls Father. Never does he take credit for what he does, something the trinitarian god could do with impunity, since they're all the same person, right? So why does Jesus always give credit to some other person he constantly calls his Father?

To me it is as clear as the fingers on my right hand that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are separate people. It is plainly laid out in the NT for all to see.

Add to that the fact that Jesus told the Apostles that he would send the Holy Ghost in his absence, and that after they had recieved this comforter, they could see Jesus again as another comforter... If they're all the same person, then this whole arrangement is totally meaningless and overwrought...why would any god bother with such claptrap??

The most intriguing thing about all of this is that the strongest witness against the trinity is found in the Bible itself, yet far too many choose not to see it...

[bytebear]

Luke 22:24 pretty much sums it up for me.

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

If Jesus is the same essence of God, how can they have opposing wills?

[Maureen]

...something the trinitarian god could do with impunity, since they're all the same person, right?....

Incorrect. Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons but they all share the same nature, their divinity, which makes them one God.

Trying to understand the trinity in incorrect ways will get you no where. If you don't understand it, that's fine, if you don't believe it, that's fine. But don't give it definitions that are wrong. It doesn't make understanding it any clearer.

M.

[Maureen]

...that is confusing. Which is it? Three beings or one being? Three personages or one personage? the above contains conflicing statements - it is either one or the other, you can't have a square circle - it is either a square or a cirlce, one or the other, cannot be both. So which is it- are The Father, Son and Holy Spirit three distinct personsor- are The Father, Son and Holy Spirit one being, one God.which is it? choice a or choice b - it is impossible to have it both ways.

With God anything is possible and in this case the answer is both. That's why the Trinity is identified with the formula 3 in 1; 3 persons, one God.

[Maureen]

Trinity - a word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person. (from dictionary.com)

[Maureen]

changed, I understand that you do not agree with the doctrine or understand it but the doctrine itself is not going to go away because you see it as impossible.

[Dr T]

Tell me - Can God create a rock that is too large for Him to move?

Either

a) He canot create the rock,

or

b) He cannot move it.

God can do all that is possible. If it is possible, He can do it.

Some things are impossible though.

It is not possible to have both free will and live without the choice of evil. either

a.) we have free will in which case good and evil exist

or

b.) we do not have free will in which case good and evil do not exist.

one or the other, cannot have both.

one personage or three personages - one or the other, cannot have it both ways.

Some things are impossible, illogical, nonsensical.

the "mystery" of the trinity. There is a reason people do not understand it, think it a mystery. It is because it is nonsensical, illogical, contradictory, impossible. Sorry.

Some people think they are being smart "I can understand it while you cannot". Often the smarter of the two people is the one who does not understand it, the one who recognizes that the concept is nonsenical.

Hi Changed,

Yes, there are things that are nonscensican an impossiblity but those things are just self defeating and not worthy of discussion. We ought not put somethings that is impossible up as a standard for saying it takes away from God's omniscience. Since it cannot be done (the meaning of impossible) then it is just that. If it could be done it no longer is actually impossible. Anyway, the concept of the Trinity, in its logic being illogical, I'd like to hear/read what about it is illogical (truely illogical) to see where u get that claim. Thanks changed. I haven't seen you around in a while. I hope you're doing well. :)

[beefche]

Trinity - a word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person. (from dictionary.com)

This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that the 3 distinct persons inhabit one body? Or are you saying that it's one body with 3 personalities?

[Dr T]

It's like 1x1x1=1 not "+"

[Maureen]

Arguing over the trinity has already been done in past threads. A search on previous threads will find multiple posts for and against the trinity. I posted just to clarify that there is a correct definition of the trinity; making the trinity into something it is not serves no purpose.

[Maureen]

which do you follow?

I personally am talking about the Holy Trinity, which I quoted on Post #18.

[Maureen]

So, where is the discrepancy between LDS and trinitarians?

Well for one thing, trinitarians believe in the trinity doctrine, LDS do not. :)

Agree, Jesus is also a God.

Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus is a God, trinitarians believe Jesus is the one and only God.

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 130:22)

Trinitarians do not believe that the Father has a body of flesh and bones. Christ's body is glorified. It is obvious we both see the Godhead differently.

[Justice]

You know, I have come to realize that the idea of the Trinity might be more intelligent than I ever gave it credit.

It uses mostly the same words as the way we describe the Godhead.

But, since they have branded it as incomprehensible, anyone can interpret and understand it however they want and can't be proven wrong.

Fascinating.

[Dr T]

Well that's not true. All that is needed is an understanding of what the Bible teaches around it and if there is something contrary to that then "it's wrong." See how easy that is Justice?

[Justice]

I think that's about the same thing.

People can and have interpreted the words of the Bible however they wish.