Eating the forbidden fruit.

[Traveler]

Part of the problem that creates misunderstanding of the Eden epoch is that many try to understand things outside of covenants. The covenant of man prior to the fall included the covenant of marriage. It is important to note that the covenant of marriage with G-d involves having children. Or to multiply and replenish. However, to fulfill the covenant Adam and Eve had to make some choices concerning “Agency”.

Many people think agency is a choice but again that kind of thinking is misleading. Agency is actually a covenant or contract in and of itself. Keep in mind that a covenant is a bilateral contract – both parties must provide value for an exchange of something. The L-rd indicated that to obtain knowledge of Good and Evil (which is the spirit of Christ) man must partake of the fruit. Note that there is two parts – one the experience and the other the result – The experience is the fall that makes us subject to good and evil – which means that evil, wins out and the result therefore is death – both spiritual and physical.

But man was not yet a G-d and to have knowledge that would place man in the category of a G-d was very precarious (which is the engine for the rebellion of Lucifer, the war in heaven and Lucifer’s role and claim for man when they die – remember the claim for Moses). The reason is that if man became eternal in such a state they would be lost and unable to abide good; which I might point out is what happened to Lucifer. Therefore a “Savior” must intervene for man while still mortal and before man becomes eternal to prevent man from abiding forever in death and sin which is the lot of Lucifer if anyone is wondering how he ended up as he did.

The Traveler

[Pamatridis]

Some thoughts....

Agency has at least two parts: First, the general ability “to act” is an attribute of all intelligence to a greater or lesser degree. Second, to the sons and daughters of God is given an enhancement to their agency, to them is given moral agency, the ability to choose between righteousness and wickedness. (And receive the attendant condemnation or blessing).

Accountability is required to exercise moral agency but not agency in general. And for man to be accountable requires a knowledge of good and evil.

Opposition is also necessary that man might exercise moral agency, or how else would he choose?

This being the case, Adam and Eve were not accountable in the garden of Eden, for they had not yet been given the ability to discern good from evil. They were as children before the age of eight, innocent. (This is the sense in which ‘innocent' is applied to children, unaccountable.)

Adam and Eve were gifted with agency in the general sense, but not accountability. Accountability did not come until after they transgressed the law.

This being the case. How must things have looked from Adam and Eve's perspective? We don't believe that they acted in defiance of God (as the Jehovah's Witnesses do) nor in a combination with Lucifer. After receiving 'instructions' from the LORD -- (We are so quick to see them as commandments, because that is our frame of reference, such a reference infers a knowledge of good and evil, breaking or keeping) -- Lucifer enters the garden and comes as a friend, a brother! He gives 'further instruction' and makes it seem obvious to Eve why partaking of the fruit is a good thing. In very fact, he teaches her that partaking of the fruit will make her more like their Father. Again, her reference is not one of good versus bad, but simple choices with simple results. (If we are to literally read the allegory, because of their lack of experience, they had NO IDEA WHAT TRULY AWAITED THEM IN MORTALITY -- they had never experienced it).

After partaking, she goes to Adam and simply says, "Here Adam, partake". He suggests that this is not in keeping with the instructions they received; however, Eve quickly points out that if they are going to follow the remaining instructions, he had better eat or they wouldn't be following any of them! Again, their is no malice or choosing to DISOBEY God. How could there be? In there innocence, such would be outside their experience. Lucifer took advantage of the innocence of Adam and Eve, beguiling her, only because he thought it would serve HIS purpose. Alas, all things were done according to the foreknowledge of God.

I think perspective is everything...oh, and remember that the writers of the Adam and Eve experience are writing from our perspective -- because the lessons to be learned from the story are not historical but allegorical as they apply to each one of us.

[Seanette]

So you do not believe that events in the Scriptures are historical?

[Pamatridis]

All events? No I do not believe that all events in the scriptures are shared from a historical perspective. Many are metaphorical or allegorical. Do I believe that Adam and Eve were very real? Yes. Lived in the garden? Yes. Fell from their paradisaical state? Yes. Left the garden for the world we now know? Yes. Do I believe that all of the details associated with the story are meant to be taken literally? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

[Vort]

All events? No I do not believe that all events in the scriptures are shared from a historical perspective. Many are metaphorical or allegorical. Do I believe that Adam and Eve were very real? Yes. Lived in the garden? Yes. Fell from their paradisaical state? Yes. Left the garden for the world we now know? Yes. Do I believe that all of the details associated with the story are meant to be taken literally? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

This.

[Pamatridis]

historical/allegorical? not one or the other... both.

Better said.

[Justice]

Part of the reason this is hard to understand is because we are "in time" already and have no recollection of what it was like to not be "in time," or in a mortal condition.

Adam and Eve were immortal when they received those 2 commandments. Keep that in mind and we'll come back to it.

It wasn't just that there were conflicting commandments, it's that one was a "law" of omission, and the other was a "law" of commission. That fact, together with the "time" issue paints quite an interesting paradox.

1. If they did not multiply and replenish the earth they were in violation of the law, meaning, they had to do something. It just so happens that they did not know how to keep the first commandment... they didn't know what to do in order to keep it. It also just so happened that, since they were immortal, they had an eternity to comply. It was impossible for them to break this commandment because they always had opportunity to multiply, since they would not die.

2. If they partook of the forbidden fruit they were in violation of the law, meaning, they had to not do somthing. It just so happens that the knowledge needed to keep or do the first commandment was contained in the very thing they were told not to do. It also just so happened that, since they were immortal, they could go on forever and not partake. It was impossible to prove their obedience, unless they were given a time frame, which, oddly enough, they gained by partaking of the fruit.

By partaking of the fruit they set a time line for keeping the first. They had to keep it before they died.

Often we overlook the issue of time.

Also, we overlook that they had to DO something in order to bring about obedience to the first commandment. They had an eternity to keep the first commandment as long as they were immortal. To show obedience and be accounted as obedient to the first, they needed the knowledge and time fram in which to do it. Both go hand in hand.

So, being immortal would change your perspective of obedience. It would be like telling your kids to clean their room (omission) or not to go outside (commission) and not give a time frame. At what point are they obedient? 5 minutes? a month? 10 years? Are they obedient if they cleaned their room 5 years later? Are they obedient if they didn't go outside for 5 seconds?

If you are really curious about this, study and break down Alma 42. I was going to post a few verses, but there aren't just a few that would do the teaching of the chapter justice. Pay close attention to the "time, "state," and "space" man was granted as a result of the fall.

[Justice]

Eve was not barren in the Garden of Eden. When people hear "Adam and Eve couldn't have children in the Garden of Eden," they automatically think that means "were not physically able." Adam and Eve were made perfect. Their bodies were perfect. If they could not physically have children in the Garden of Eden they would not have been perfect.

What they lacked was the knowledge or know-how.

Here is Eve herself:

Moses 5:

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

This is an obvious teaching. I think we try to overcomplicate things. Of course Adam and Eve "could have" children in the Garden of Eden. But, they were in a state of innocence, much like a young child and therefore "could not" have children.

Here is evidence from the Bible for you skeptical people:

Genesis 3:

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

There it is, plain as day. Their understanding of "good and evil," which they gained from eathing the forbidden fruit, also included in some way (if not primarily) the knowledge that they were naked, which could only mean they gained the knowledge of how to procreate. So, also, keep in mind that before they ate the fruit they did not know they were naked and everything that implies.

How can you have the knowledge to procreate if you don't even recognize you are naked? This is as clear as it can be that Adam and Eve could not procreate in the Garden of Eden, not because they were not physically able, but because they lacked the knowledge, and that knowledge was to be gained by partaking of the forbidden fruit.

But, wait, there's more. Based on these scriptures, and our understanding that "nakedness" and "procreation" came from eating the forbbiden fruit, how does this scripture fit in:

Genesis 3:

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Is anyone awake out there?

Edited July 14, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

That phrase very clearly implies a second possibility: Maybe they won't yield to temptation. So what's on the other side of that "if"? Answer: We don't know. It's not presented to us -- probably because that's not the world we're living in.

It is given to us.

Adam and Eve would have remained in the Garden of Eden forever. Our coming to earth would have been put on hold until they partook.

There was no contingency plan.

There was never a plan by God or Lucifer for Adam and Eve NOT to partake of the fruit. The consequenses of them not partaking were clear (scripture has already been referenced). Neither God nor Lucifer could bring about their plans if Adam and Eve did not eat the fruit. This is why Lucifer tempted them to eat it. This is what Alma 12 is trying to teach us. Lucifer's plan also included Adam and Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit, otherwise he wouldn't have tempted them to do it. If all he was after was destroying God's plan, all he had to do was nothing... not tempt them. God's plan would have been frustrated. God's plan could not be brought to pass any other way.

There was no contingency plan.

[Justice]

I don't know where the references are, but we have been told by prophets that a physical change happened when Adam and Eve transgressed. Therefore, they were physically unable to have children or die while in the Garden and innocent. Once they transgressed, death entered into the world and they were capable of having children. I believe that that applies to all the animals as well.

The physical change brought blood and death, not the ability to have children. It brought the knowledge of how to have children.

Look, you guys are missing the bigger picture.

Adam fell that men might be.

Men are that they might have joy.

How is this possible?

The fall brought blood and death. Christ was ordained from BEFORE THE FOUNDATION of the earth to be the Savior... to come to earth, be born of a MORTAL mother, be sacrificed and die.

If Adam and Eve did not fall, and bring blood to mankind, Christ could not have been born the Savior, because He would have been born immortal, without blood, and incapable of atoning for the sins of the world and the fall of Adam. This was foreordained before the world was even created!

(The only way for Christ to be born immortal was for Adam and Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit and then immediately partake of the tree of life, having their mortal probation period removed. -PLEASE read Alma 12- As long as Adam and Eve did not partake of the fruit they did not know how to have children.)

The world was created for this purpose, for man to fall.

Man HAD to gain the knowledge of good and evil, and this had to be gained by experience in a fallen condition. This fallen earth represents a safety net for us to gain this knowledge over. Look at Lucifer, he rebelled against God (sin) in God's presence (not in a physical body) and he was cast out a son of perdition forever.

Moses 7:

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

We already had agency. Lucifer and his angels fell from heaven because they exercised their agency in God's presence (not in a state of death behind a veil).

D&C 29:

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

God gave man their ability (or permission) to exercise their agency in the Garden of Eden because man (His children) now had a safety net by which they could be redeemed from rebellion. This world was created for the sole purpose for man to fall to a condition of death (separation from God) where they could safely gain this knowledge and then be redeemed through Christ and repentance. Gaining this knowledge in God's presence meant we all suffered the same fate as Lucifer.

Alma 34:

31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

Alma 12:

24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

25 Now, if it had not been for the plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world, there could have been no resurrection of the dead; but there was a plan of redemption laid, which shall bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, of which has been spoken.

Don't over think it.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

Changed, I clicked Thank you for that post 100 times!

Why do so many miss your point?

Specifically, to narrow down what Elder Ballard was saying, it is the condition of the MOTHER'S body that determines the condition of the offspring.

Mortal mother = mortal offspring

Immortal mother = immortal offspring

Think about it.

Why did Lucifer tempt Eve and not Adam? Read Alma 12!! Lucifer wanted Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit and then partake of the tree of life. That's all he needed to make it impossible for mankind to be saved from the fall. ALL of Adam and Eve's offspring would have been born immortal... including Jesus Christ. No blood = no atonement.

Please everyone, I know my above posts are long, but read them and let me know what you think. I have studied and prayed about this topic most of my life and have some useful insights. The fall doesn't have to be a complete mystery.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Justice

[Moksha]

think about it, if there was no literal fall, then what of the atonement?

I would say that Jesus gave his life for our salvation through the Atonement process.

a life for a life?

Is this upping the ante for an eye for an eye? Don't know how to respond...

what of agency?

I like freedom of choice.

the fruit was literal.

The great thing is that we can agree to disagree on the Creation Story. It worked way back when for those ancient people who had no framework to understand the complexities of God's handiwork. I think that particular fruit was a metaphor with significant meaning.

:)

[Pamatridis]

Justice

I appreciate your thoughts, very interesting.

Of course, this all assumes a fairly literal reading of the text. As I mentioned above, I think that the story is mostly allegorical and so many of the assumptions we have made are probably way off mark. We are trying to fit the allegory to history. It seems that some modern prophets and apostles have had a different take on Adam and Eve -- referring to the garden story as more allegorical and the real story as not having been told in scripture.

Adam and Eve were sealed in the Garden and probably received a portion of the endowment (This is not spoken of in the Biblical/and other accounts). This would indicate that their understanding was greater than the story gives them credit for. If they took upon themselves these covenants then surely they had greater understanding than little children. They walked and talked with God and basked in his light. Surely their intelligence was immense as they immersed themselves in the Celestial light. They named the animals and certainly were taught the gospel of Christ from the Father himself. This would include reviewing the importance that they played in the plan of our Father. I do not believe that the veil had yet been placed over their eyes when they were brought from some other sphere to the paradisaical earth...that would come later. They came as Lords of the earth -- to exercise dominion over her and reign in paradisaical glory from the garden of Eden.

They boldly stepped into mortality with full knowledge of what they were doing. This is of course my opinion, but it jives more fully with our understanding of the premortal world (again, not discussed in the Biblical and other accounts), Adam's place in the premortal council and our understanding of the purpose and reasons for the fall. "Adam fell that men might be" I might add, "He purposefully fell that men might be!"

The true beauty of the Adam and Eve story is how it applies to us! For each of us must assume that we are respectively Adam and Eve. It is a teaching method, an act if you will! I might be so bold as to say it is a part of the ancient temple ceremony! (Check out the Manti and SLC temples if you doubt it!). It only has meaning when applied to our lives. Then it becomes not so much history as allegory and full of meaning.

Did the serpent beguile Eve? I think that he probably did not trick out Mother Eve. I imagine she was far more advanced than that -- she came from the Celestial realms where she had been tutored by the Father and Savior. Does Lucifer beguile you and I? On a regular basis I am afraid.

Would noble Mother Eve's response to the Father, after having been caught in her transgression, be to blame the serpent? And better yet, would Father Adam's response been to blame Eve? Hardly. But what about you and I? Don't we like to place blame on others for our own mistakes? We might even say that 'Old Scratch' made me do it!

Adam, who walked with God and Christ and knew their love for him intimately....would he have hidden himself in the garden -- or even pretended to hide himself -- knowing as he did the omniscience of God? I don't think so. But what do we do when we sin? Do we endeavor to hide our faces and turn away from God? Yip, we do.

In a metaphorical sense, the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents that which is ‘forbidden’ or sin. Adam and Eve’s partaking of the forbidden fruit is our story of individual sin. The consequences are the same: spiritual death.

The comparisons go on and on. I don't think the authors of the creation story are trying to tell us the history of Adam and Eve. Rather, they are using elements from Adam and Eve's experience to teach us about our own plight in the great plan.

At some point, Adam and Eve, chose to transgress a law which allowed mortality to take hold on them and all creation. This was not in opposition to God's will, but according to it. Our great and noble parents stepped into mortality and brought us with them.

I don't know...just my way of looking at it.

[Justice]

The scriptures say Eve was beguiled. But, to what? We can assume she was beguiled to eat the fruit, but maybe there's more to it. To understand this, we have to understand what Satan's lie was. Too many think it's very obvious, but as you dig deeper, you see that Lucifer was not lying about them not dying. His intention was for them to partake immediately of the tree of life after, so they wouldn't die (Alma 12). His lie was a conditional lie... "If you do what I say you won't die."

I, too, believe Adam and Eve were far too intelligent to be taken by a bold-faced lie, or even a half-truth. Eve admitted to being beguiled, but oddly enough, God punished the serpent for doing and not necessarily her for listening. He punished Adam for listening to his wife, but it's not real clear whether what Eve received was a punishment or a consequence:

Moses 4:

19 And I, the Lord God, said unto the woman: What is this thing which thou hast done? And the woman said: The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

20 And I, the Lord God, said unto the serpent: Because thou hast done this thou shalt be cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life;

21 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed; and he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

22 Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

23 And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

However, unlike you, I believe there were trees and fruit. Lehi saw one of the trees in vision. The trees in the Garden of Eden were symbols, it's not that they are only allegories of what they represented, but that they were real things that were symbols of something else.

[deseretgov]

The scriptures say Eve was beguiled. But, to what? We can assume she was beguiled to eat the fruit, but maybe there's more to it. To understand this, we have to understand what Satan's lie was. Too many think it's very obvious, but as you dig deeper, you see that Lucifer was not lying about them not dying. His intention was for them to partake immediately of the tree of life after, so they wouldn't die (Alma 12). His lie was a conditional lie... "If you do what I say you won't die."

That's something I never thought of before.

[Justice]

I never had either, deseretgov, until last year.

Yet, I've read Alma 12 many times over the years. There are other places in the scriptures where it talks about this "what if" scenario. I never put 2 and 2 together that it was Satan's plan until I discovered something very interesting about Alma 12.

If you are interested, I will list all my evidence and findings (as briefly as possible) why I believe this is describing Satan's plan, including the most recent discovery I made in Alma 12. The reason I don't just make the list is many people would rather make discoveries on their own. There is no arguing the fact that findings are more meaningful when the spirit teaches us truth. And, even if I were to make a list, the spirit would still have to teach anyone who read the list. It was right in front of me for almost 40 years and I only saw it when I ready. But, some, like myself, like to read what others think then study, ponder, and pray. If you are like me I'll gladly make a list. The evidence alone is really overwhelming.

[deseretgov]

I'd really be interested in that. That one little thought alone adds a whole new dimension to the events of the fall...well for me anyway. It's just makes perfect sense.

[Pamatridis]

So what more of a curse or punshiment could Satan have received in the garden than he had already received in Heaven? He was already Perdition...

[Pamatridis]

Oh, I do believe there were trees in the garden of Eden.

[Justice]

OK. But, I think maybe I'll go slower than what I proposed. It probably would just looked rambled and confusing if I listed all the evidence I have complied. The topics and locations of the information are varied and scattered. In fact, I have listed quite a bit of it in this thread already.

I think what I'll do is concentrate on what I discovered about Alma 12.

As you know, in Alma 11, Amulek teaches the people of Ammonihah about the resurrection. In chapter 12, Alma begins to speak, seeing that the people began to soften their hearts and actually understand what Amulek taught them. So, when he begins to speak, he wants to switch to a different topic to expose the fraud that Zeezrom was and to have him recall his false teachings in front of all the people.

1 Now Alma, seeing that the words of Amulek had silenced Zeezrom, for he beheld that Amulek had caught him in his lying and deceiving to destroy him, and seeing that he began to tremble under a consciousness of his guilt, he opened his mouth and began to speak unto him, and to establish the words of Amulek, and to explain things beyond, or to unfold the scriptures beyond that which Amulek had done.

Make a special note here that it was not Alma's intention to re-hash was Amulek just spoke. He wanted to go beyond Amulek's words and teach greater doctrine.

Now, take a look at where Alma was going:

2 Now the words that Alma spake unto Zeezrom were heard by the people round about; for the multitude was great, and he spake on this wise:

3 Now Zeezrom, seeing that thou hast been taken in thy lying and craftiness, for thou hast not lied unto men only but thou hast lied unto God; for behold, he knows all thy thoughts, and thou seest that thy thoughts are made known unto us by his Spirit;

4 And thou seest that we know that thy plan was a very subtle plan, as to the subtlety of the devil, for to lie and to deceive this people that thou mightest set them against us, to revile us and to cast us out—

Zeezrom's plan was akin to Satan's plan, that he attempted to deceive so that someone would be cast out.

5 Now this was a plan of thine adversary, and he hath exercised his power in thee. Now I would that ye should remember that what I say unto thee I say unto all.

Satan deceived Zeezrom, but Alma is also saying that this is Satan's plan in general. These specific events were brought about by Satan, but all plans that are brought about to lie and deceive so that men will be destroyed are brought about by Satan.

6 And behold I say unto you all that this was a snare of the adversary, which he has laid to catch this people, that he might bring you into subjection unto him, that he might encircle you about with his chains, that he might chain you down to everlasting destruction, according to the power of his captivity.

It's pretty clear that Alma is wanting to explain or expound how Satan works, and expose Satan's plans.

OK, now Zeezrom begins to shake and tremble even more, and Alma hasn't even got to his main point yet. And, he can't at this time because Zeezrom interrupts him with a question about what Amulek just taught them. Watch how Alma changes subjects to answer Zeezrom's question:

7 Now when Alma had spoken these words, Zeezrom began to tremble more exceedingly, for he was convinced more and more of the power of God; and he was also convinced that Alma and Amulek had a knowledge of him, for he was convinced that they knew the thoughts and intents of his heart; for power was given unto them that they might know of these things according to the spirit of prophecy.

8 And Zeezrom began to inquire of them diligently, that he might know more concerning the kingdom of God. And he said unto Alma: What does this mean which Amulek hath spoken concerning the resurrection of the dead, that all shall rise from the dead, both the just and the unjust, and are brought to stand before God to be judged according to their works?

So, Alma changes his train of thought from where he was headed, to explain Zeezrom's question about what Amulek had spoken.

Verses 9 - 18 are Alma's answer to Zeezrom about what Amulek spoke about the resurrection and how it relates to the Kingdom of God (read it if you like).

Then, a chief ruler in the city named Antionah sees a parallel between what Alma was saying and a scripture he read sometime and thought they contradicted each other. So, based on his understanding of a teaching they had among them, or an interpretation of a scripture passage, he asks a very simple question:

20 But there was one Antionah, who was a chief ruler among them, came forth and said unto him: What is this that thou hast said, that man should rise from the dead and be changed from this mortal to an immortal state, that the soul can never die?

21 What does the scripture mean, which saith that God placed cherubim and a flaming sword on the east of the garden of Eden, lest our first parents should enter and partake of the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever? And thus we see that there was no possible chance that they should live forever.

Isn't that an interesting question? He thought that because God guarded the tree of life from man that man could not live forever. Now, remember, these people did not believe in a Christ. That would make their belief at least make sense. So, the question is, "why have a resurrection if man isn't going to live forever?" Or, "why would God guard the tree of life if He intended man to live forever?"

Here is the bread and butter of Alma 12. Pay very close attention to how Alma begins his answer, and to his answer:

22 Now Alma said unto him: This is the thing which I was about to explain. Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.

This is the thing which I was about to explain?

Antionah's question will cause Alma to change his current line of discussion. So, how is it that he was about to explain it? Well, go back to the first several verses of the chapter. Alma's intention when he started was to go beyond what Amulek explained. His words suggest he was about to explain Satan's plan to them.

Right?

Watch closely as he moves back to what he was "about" to explain to them before Zeezrom interrupted him with a question:

22 ...Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.

Remember Antionah's question? Why did God guard the tree of life if... ?? Since God guarded the tree of life that meant man could not live forever. Alma begins speaking directly about why God guarded the tree of life. His first reason was that man had fallen.

The million dollar question is why did God need to guard the tree of life because man had fallen? Essentially this is what Antionah is asking, he just doesn't understand it as well as Alma does.

Antionah even knew that if Adam and Eve partook of the tree of life after they fell they would have lived forever, having never died. He knew that. He just didn't understand how it all fit. He didn't understand why God would keep man from doing that if He INTENDED man to live forever.

Look at this:

23 And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die.

He taught Antionah that if God allowed man to partake of the tree of life after they were fallen and before they had opportunity to 1) have seed 2) repent, that God's plan was destroyed.

In fact, look how far it would have gone toward actually not just destroying God's plan, but to bring about what Satan wanted:

26 And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.

Think of the consequences of this. It would have removed man's agency, or in other words, it would have removed man's ability to choose God, or even more specifically, even if a man decided to choose God it wouldn't have mattered because there was nothing God could do to save them because the only way God could redeem man was by sending His Son to redeem them from the fall.

Satan was anti-Christ because without Christ he could bring about His plan. Had he been able to get Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit, so that they could gain the knowledge of how to have offspring, then immediately have them partake of the tree of life, they were lost and fallen forever with no chance at redemption. Man would have remained here unable to die, unable to be redeemed, in a lost and fallen state...

...with Satan as our king, just like he wanted.

Satan tried to "destroy the agency" of man. Many think the only way he could do this was by forcing all to obey him. But, men (children of God) are born with agency, it cannot be taken. He knew this because he, himself, exercised his agency in the pre-mortal realm. Man's agency must be given, and that is the only way it can be taken. God cannot even take it. So, those who willingly followed him in the pre-mortal existence gave him their agency. Satan's plan was to take the agency of those who would not freely give it, or to "destroy the agency of man."

He devised a way to do this by eliminating man's period of mortal probation wherein man could choose freely. He knew as long as man had a choice that some would not choose him. He knew he could not remove their ability to choose. He had to eliminate mortality because he could not eliminate agency directly. So, he sought to eliminate the space, time, or state in which man could choose. Also, if you remove mortality, you remove all possibility of a Redeemer being born.

It's too convenient to be an accident. Satan sought to destroy man's mortal probation period (which was part of Father's plan of REDEMPTION). The very fact that it is called the Plan of Redemption means that the plan was for man to fall to a state of mortality and be redeemed. Well, Satan still needed man to fall in order that men could be born on earth. So, he tempted Eve to eat the fruit. Man did become mortal, as Alma begins his answer.

The difference is how long would man be mortal? God wanted all men to be born mortal. Satan didn't want Eve to have any mortal offspring to accomplish his purposes.

Think about it, God guarded the tree of life after they partook of the forbidden fruit because He knew Satan would be tempting them to eat it, because it was his plan. That's the simple answer to Antionah's question.

The last question I'll ask in this post is why in the world would Alma teach a "what if" scenario to the people? Why would Mormon abridge it into his book? And, why did it end up in our Book of Momron today? I mean, it's a what if scenario, right? The answer is that it MUST be describing something that was real. It's only "what if" because Adam and Eve did not partake of the tree of life after. They were taught about and relied on Christ as their tree of life.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

The fallacy is thinking that Satan was trying to get them cast out of the Garden of Eden. He was trying to get them cast out of God's presence forever, like he was.

In fact, Adam and Eve getting cast out of the Garden of Eden was a symbol of them being cast out of God's presence. But, the mortal condition they fell to is the great equalizer in God's plan. Since they were cast out they had the ability to experience rebellion against God, and re-choose Him unconditionally. After men were "reborn" they could be saved by a Redeemer.

This is why Satan muddies the waters so darkly about works and grace.

Alma 42:

3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—

4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.

7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.

8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.

Or, it was necessary that man be redeemed from the spiritual death first. Satan wanted to reverse the order, making the spiritual redemption impossible.

9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.

10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.

12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.

15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.

The first death we were to be reclaimed from is the spiritual death. This is done by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ which teaches a man he must repent, be born again, and become as a little child. THEN comes the physical redemption, or resurrection. Adam and Eve could not have been reclaimed in the opposite order. This is a profound reason why men can and must work toward salvation BEFORE they ultimately gain eternal life. They go hand in hand, not one or the other.

Alma 41 teaches why this order is necessary, and it is because of the restoration that comes with the resurrection.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Justice

[Pamatridis]

Justice,

Fantastic insight. You nailed something that I have been trying to put my finger on for quite sometime....

Thank you.

[Justice]

Thank you. I was worried that because of the length people wouldn't read it.

But, please, if you ever had any concern or question about the Fall, I think it would be good to read and understand what I'm trying to say. It helped me immensly when I was taught this.

Also, if anyone has additional comment or wishes to take exception with anything I've said, I welcome it.

[beefche]

Thanks, Justice, for taking the time to do that. It is long, so I'll wait until I get home to read it all. But, I'm very interested in your insights.

[Justice]

So what more of a curse or punshiment could Satan have received in the garden than he had already received in Heaven? He was already Perdition...

You're right. I don't always word things very well. This is why I like feedback on what I write.

I meant the serpent was punished.

That's an interesting thing in and of itself, because we see the serpent speaking to Eve and she didn't think it unusual. And, we see the seprent punished to slither on his belly all his days. This means he previously had another mode of transportation. Maybe legs like a lizard, maybe even also wings like a dragon. I tend to think there's too much imagery in the scriptures about dragons and winged serpents for it to not be both.

If you think about it, if the serpent did have wings and lost them as a result of his actions, it could be a very profound symbol of who he was and what he lost, and that Christ still has his wings, since He's referred to as the winged serpent in many places in history.