Openness in the Marriage Relationship

[redtide]

I'm torn on something. I generally believe that everything should be open between the spouses, and there are some obvious examples, e.g., bank accounts, career, decisions affecting the children, income taxes, etc. But there are some issues that might raise questions, e.g., sins, negative feelings towards the other spouse, discussions with "experts".

Should there be a line? Is there a reason to guard secrecy between the spouses? As an example, if a spouse has extremely hurtful feelings towards the other spouse (only married you for your money), would it be wise to share that feeling with the other spouse? It certainly does not help the marriage. What if the spouse shares, in confidence with a counselor, feelings that if shared with the spouse would be horrific, and potentially damage the relationship permanently? Should those be shared? Experts, and the Church, suggest that it may be best to NOT disclose certain details of marriage infidelity, where such details would permanently harm the relationship, i.e., share the fact that there are intimate "love letters" but do not give the letters for the other spouse to study.

Is it fair to the spouse to NOT share those feelings? While the marriage might fail, the spouse left in the dark would be able to make decisions based on ALL the facts (as opposed to just the known facts due to secrecy by the other spouse).

Part of me believes that the couple should be one in everything - everything. No secrets. No hidden sins.

Thoughts?

[Misshalfway]

There is no doubt in my mind that painful secrets harm marriage, not to mention compromising the integrity of the secret keeper. God doesn't want us to marry in any circumstance of dishonesty. If a spouse was misled into marrying someone that didn't love him/her, then that is a truth that will hurt this relationship one way or another. I think it is stupidity to believe that keeping the secret can really control its effects. Hiding sins is selfish and ungodly and certainly unrepentant.

I personally would rather deal with some painful truth than to find out late in the game that I had put my faith into some deception. What makes you think marriage can be a happy institution when it is laid on a foundation of lies?

[redtide]

>What makes you think marriage can be a happy institution when it is laid on a foundation of lies?

I certainly don't think that, and have not formed my own conclusions regarding this issue as a whole. But I am sure that there are some things that you should not tell your spouse, e.g., that dress makes your butt look huge!

Do you think that the spouse should be aware of all the conversations the other spouse has with a professional counselor?

[redtide]

From the book "Not Just Friends":

>[P]ressing to hear about graphic sexual details or to see love letters is a mistake because the vivid images can become intrusive and interfere with intimacy.

p. 206

I'm inclined to agree with that. My spouse has told me something that is extremely hurtful, and I doubt that I will ever forget. It's an impediment to intimacy, unless I force it from my mind. Now I have something to deal with, when I wish that I had never known.

[Misshalfway]

>What makes you think marriage can be a happy institution when it is laid on a foundation of lies?

I certainly don't think that, and have not formed my own conclusions regarding this issue as a whole. But I am sure that there are some things that you should not tell your spouse, e.g., that dress makes your butt look huge!

Truth can be presented in hurtful ways or in constructive ways.

If I was wearing jeans that legitimately made my butt look like the size of Texas, I would want my husband to lovingly tell me and then give me cash to buy a new pair. :)

If someone is using truth to belittle or without regard to a person's feelings then, no, it shouldn't be shared. There is room here for wisdom. Wisdom and honesty can and do successfully live together.

Do you think that the spouse should be aware of all the conversations the other spouse has with a professional counselor?

No. I actually don't think that a spouse has a right to know everything about a person. We each have our own private lives. Marriage has great potential for intimacy, but the definition of intimacy is not losing all of ones privacy and boundaries.

[redtide]

>but the definition of intimacy is not losing all of ones privacy and boundaries.

That may be. I seem to like that, but part of me believes that we are not truly "one" in such a case. Frankly, I'm not sure that I'm READY to be ONE. I'm just wondering.

[Misshalfway]

Becoming "one" does not mean losing our individuality. It means become one with regards to purpose.

Becoming sexually intimate, for example, does not mean the blending of male and female into some other concoction. I stay a female, and husband over there stays a male and all of our separate feelings, sensations, and perceptions are individual. But our goals are the same = sharing love and showing commitment and working towards mutual satisfaction. Oh....and on occasion making a baby.

Maybe you aren't ready to join your life to someone else's. That is ok. Sometimes we must deal with our issues privately before we are available to build intimacy and trust and it is absolutely ok to carve out space so that proper growth and healing can happen.

One thing I have learned is that people who can't talk about real issues with the right people, are usually living in fear. Problems are best solved in trust of self and others (the right people, not everyone) and God.

[foreverafter]

Experts, and the Church, suggest that it may be best to NOT disclose certain details of marriage infidelity, where such details would permanently harm the relationship, i.e., share the fact that there are intimate "love letters" but do not give the letters for the other spouse to study.

Is it fair to the spouse to NOT share those feelings? While the marriage might fail, the spouse left in the dark would be able to make decisions based on ALL the facts (as opposed to just the known facts due to secrecy by the other spouse).

Part of me believes that the couple should be one in everything - everything. No secrets. No hidden sins.

Thoughts?

People often hide things & rationalize by saying they don't want to hurt their spouse more, but in reality they know it will make their spouse even more upset at them & they just don't want to lose their spouse & maybe have to suffer even greater consequences. But spouses have a right to know if their spouse is committing sin or has been unfaithful in mind, thought, heart & actions & to what extent & exactly what they have done or said or felt for someone outside the marriage.

I believe that to completely repent the errant spouse must disclose everything that the spouse wants to know about. Some spouses may not want to know the gory details & will let the other know that. But if an errant spouse was to resist showing or telling something to their spouse, like a love letter or details of an affair, then that would prevent complete healing of the trust that must be regained & could likely cause even greater damage to the relationship, even a divorce. How could a wife ever trust a man who refused to reveal his errant actions & feelings if she really wanted to know? When spouses are made to feel wrong & are told they shouldn't need to know the details they often go into denial of their rightful need for honesty & complete confession by their spouse, which can cause even worse problems down the road.

If the spouse asks for the whole truth & is then hurt by it, which most likely will happen, then that is at least a clean slate to heal from & start reparing the relationship & the errant spouse can from then on lovingly do all in their power to make up for the pain they caused. Humble remorseful true love is a powerful healer even with the deepest of wounds.

True repentance & humility & love can repair the marriage but if one hides something then there will likely always be distrust & doubt of the sincerity of the errant spouse's repentance. If we are truely repentant we are willing to tell all & disclose everything the spouse wants to know, as often as they need to revisit it & it could take years for the curiousity & need for reassurance to subside. Many people say this isn't necessary because it's too hard to reveal or hear but secrets can eventually do far more damage than truth.

I know a man who told his wife that he had looked at an immodest woman walking down the street while he was driving home one day. This man is a very good man & his wife, though she may not like the reality of hearing that, knows she can trust her husband to let her know when he is getting weak or doing something he shouldn't, thus she would know when to help him stay strong. She didn't like his weakness but she feels secure in his honesty & remorse.

Edited July 15, 2009 by foreverafter

[Jbs2763]

this is something i have wondered about, ie, how much do i tell a girl that i am dating, and at what points? I was in active for a number of years, got heavy into the "sex-drugs-and country music scene".....

i know alot of "good mormon girls" wont want to seriously date me because i have a past...wont date me period because i have tattoos,

so where does the "not being to open" vs. "foundation of lies" begin and end? If I date a girl start dating a girl, do i causually remark that when i was younger i did some stupid stuff...was inactive for a while...let her flill in the blanks... or would a good mormon girl be to naive to know that meant heavy drinking, one night stands, and smoking a metric ton of pot in my early 20s? The tattoos are can't be hidden forever...they are covered by a tshirt, but thats as far as that goes..

the other stuff i is there...and I ain't gonna deny it... but at what point does it become public knowledge...it really shouldn't. I've made my peace with the Lord, but that don't mean my wife doesn't want to know about all the stupid stuff i did..... Or she won't want to know details...maybe i'll find one that will be copasetic with " yeah, when i was younger i dabbled in drugs and drank quite a bit, had a few "girlfreinds" that wwere short term aand purely phsycial"...she might be okay with that....

I know most girls don't wanna hear the stories...and if they do...she's a BFF, or will be even if she's into me...cause they don't wanna dude like that...at least if they know soem of the gory details...even on the partying not the sexual indescresions, i dunno...this is a demon that rattles round my head every time i wanna ask a girl out... and i know for a fact that my time in utah was effected by the ink....

I might be moving to Phoenix this fall..is it gonna be differnt there? the best way i've figured to "ease a girl into it" is by saying....

"I kinda fell away from the church for a while after high school, didn't severe a mission, and did some really dumb things...etc"

dunno...i gotta jet for work..peace

[Misshalfway]

this is something i have wondered about, ie, how much do i tell a girl that i am dating, and at what points? I was in active for a number of years, got heavy into the "sex-drugs-and country music scene".....

i know alot of "good mormon girls" wont want to seriously date me because i have a past...wont date me period because i have tattoos,

so where does the "not being to open" vs. "foundation of lies" begin and end? If I date a girl start dating a girl, do i causually remark that when i was younger i did some stupid stuff...was inactive for a while...let her flill in the blanks... or would a good mormon girl be to naive to know that meant heavy drinking, one night stands, and smoking a metric ton of pot in my early 20s? The tattoos are can't be hidden forever...they are covered by a tshirt, but thats as far as that goes..

the other stuff i is there...and I ain't gonna deny it... but at what point does it become public knowledge...it really shouldn't. I've made my peace with the Lord, but that don't mean my wife doesn't want to know about all the stupid stuff i did..... Or she won't want to know details...maybe i'll find one that will be copasetic with " yeah, when i was younger i dabbled in drugs and drank quite a bit, had a few "girlfreinds" that wwere short term aand purely phsycial"...she might be okay with that....

I know most girls don't wanna hear the stories...and if they do...she's a BFF, or will be even if she's into me...cause they don't wanna dude like that...at least if they know soem of the gory details...even on the partying not the sexual indescresions, i dunno...this is a demon that rattles round my head every time i wanna ask a girl out... and i know for a fact that my time in utah was effected by the ink....

I might be moving to Phoenix this fall..is it gonna be differnt there? the best way i've figured to "ease a girl into it" is by saying....

"I kinda fell away from the church for a while after high school, didn't severe a mission, and did some really dumb things...etc"

dunno...i gotta jet for work..peace

If Jesus means what He said and our sins are remembered no more, than there really is not need to tell all the gory details of past transgressions. Who we are now is more important to the Lord.

Are there some questions that a prospective marriage partner needs answered? You bet. And if you wanted to marry that person, being honest about past choices may be relevant and important. I would think it would be easier to know the truth about a person and make an educated and compassionate choice, than to find out things later and feel betrayed. But does one need to share all the gory details? No. I think the spirit can guide concerning what details may be relevant.

[foreverafter]

Do you think that the spouse should be aware of all the conversations the other spouse has with a professional counselor?

Most definately, everything. It is often unwise for one spouse to go alone to counseling because they hear responses based on one sided understanding. And if your spouse does not consent to a certain counselor or any counselor then the other should not go.

I know of an abusive but very charming man who went to a woman counselor who convinced him to divorce his good & faithful wife & then they both started dating.

[beefche]

JBS, no way, no how should you share your past with anyone on a first date. I say that to everyone regardless of the past. A first date is just an intro to someone. If you get to the point that you and some girl are thinking marriage, then there should be some serious discussions for both of you to discuss the important things. Things such as one's past, thoughts on money, how many kids, how to raise the kids, Boilermaker or Hoosier--important, life deciding factors.

Of course your past is going to come up. And honestly, it will make a difference for some people. There is that image out there of the perfect Mormon boy or perfect Mormon girl. I've ran into it and my past is not that shady--but I wasn't perfect enough for a couple of people. After the initial hurt, I realized that I was actually better off without them and that kind of judgment in my life.

A past is that...past. There may be some demons that we have to deal with from our past (past addictions or habits, etc.), but as long as the path one is currently on is towards God and His plan, then don't worry about it. A real man or real woman will know that everyone has a past--some have more events in their past than others--but none of us are perfect or likely to be in this life.

[beefche]

I like Miss 1/2's advice on how to much to share in a marriage. I've never been married, so take this for what you want. Being married doesn't mean you share every little thing the minute it happens. Further, it is a discovery of your spouse--a slow road that should be enjoyable--bumps along the way but a journey.

I had a friend who's husband strayed. In her initial hurt and anger, she wanted to know every little detail. He didn't share every detail with her. During counseling, my friend finally understood that forgiveness and moving forward wasn't about knowing everything. She learned to forgive without it. They reconciled and she still doesn't know the details, but she's fine with it. She has forgiven him and after a long, long time has a level of trust with him. Of course, they both had to change some things to allow that trust to happen.

I sometimes have thoughts about other people that I would never share with them. I'm mortal and sometimes I am just mean. The only reason why I would share it would be to hurt that person. That isn't a good enough reason to share it. As Miss 1/2 said, there is wisdom in sharing painful information. Sometimes, in the midst of pain and hurt, we can't think clearly enough to ascertain our motives for sharing information. I'm cautious, so I would tend to not share something until I know the reason behind it and that reason was a righteous one.

[foreverafter]

this is something i have wondered about, ie, how much do i tell a girl that i am dating, and at what points?

A potential spouse, once the relationship is getting serious, has a right to know if the person they are dating has been immoral or has done drugs, porn, etc. in the past. Even if the person has repented & is different now, these things can affect the marriage later & even child bearing (drugs) & we have a right to know about our spouses immoral activities before & after marriage. I would not disclose anything more than the person you are dating asks for, spare them the details unless they want to know more. But the basics of what has been done must be disclosed.

If we are really a changed person & the person we are dating has the spirit to feel that, then they can feel ok about marrying us anyway if it's right.

Again, we keep secrets just because we don't want to lose the person & suffer more consequences. Anything that could affect whether they would have married you or not must be disclosed. They have a right to a full & informed decision about you.

[Elgama]

For me having to watch what I say, hide a part of me - that would be a rubbish marriage, I appreciate being able to be unguarded around my husband. I haven't given him all the details of my past but there is nothing that would destroy us and I can say what I want and feel

-Charley

[lilered]

How about the serviceperson who while in the service of their country was placed in situations where he/she had to kill people. Should all those details be shared and if so, what purpose will it serve for the intended spouse to know them?

[foreverafter]

While it's possible for a really righteous & spiritual & loving spouse to forgive & get over the immoral feelings & acts of their spouse, (even if they haven't even repented yet) that does not mean that the errant spouse is not obligated to reveal all the spouse wants to know, down to the last detail.

The spirit will tell a spouse how much they need to hear, sometimes it's everything & sometimes not. But the errant spouse must be willing to tell all or it's evidence they aren't truely repentant & still hiding things under the guise that it's too painful for the spouse, the innocent spouse must be the judge of that.

In the next life the innocent spouse will be shown a replay of all they want to know about what their spouse did, that their spouse wouldn't completely repent of & remorsefully reveal in full to them here on earth. Nothing is will be held back that a spouse wants to know that went on in their marriage.

Edited July 15, 2009 by foreverafter

[Elgama]

How about the serviceperson who while in the service of their country was placed in situations where he/she had to kill people. Should all those details be shared and if so, what purpose will it serve for the intended spouse to know them?

if my husband had been in that situation and wanted to share it, or I had been in that situation and wanted to share it then there wouldn't be a barrier.

I think its important for a spouse to know why a spouse is behaving in a certain way. For me with a marriage there can be things untold but there should be no reason they have to be - except things relating to a calling

-Charley

[Misshalfway]

How about the serviceperson who while in the service of their country was placed in situations where he/she had to kill people. Should all those details be shared and if so, what purpose will it serve for the intended spouse to know them?

Again.....I think it has to do with relevance. If the person is angry or exhibiting signs of PTSD, it may be very important to explain past events to some degree. Explaining all the gory details is not necessary though.

If the events of the past do not have any connection to the present, then perhaps the person could explain that they were in the war but that there are certain subjects that he/she simply won't discuss. I think this same thing might apply to childhood sexual/physical abuse or some other such traumatic experience.

[foreverafter]

How about the serviceperson who while in the service of their country was placed in situations where he/she had to kill people. Should all those details be shared and if so, what purpose will it serve for the intended spouse to know them?

I would most definately think that it must be revealed that such was done in the service of our country but I don't think the horrid details need to be laid out for such a thing. For many service people who have had to kill people, the memories & such often affect them later in life, which then the spouse would need to help them deal with.

[Guest Alana]

In some cases I wonder if the purpose of full fledged openness is more to get it off the admitting chest rather than to be a strength to the relationship. Honesty is a great thing, but there can be cruelty in being honest. Somethings don't need to be said. If my husband is being annoying to me, but I know it's mostly me being easily aggravated, what is the point in telling him? A situation that I can think of where I would rather my husband keep his mouth shut is if he did something unseemly once (flirted back with someone for instance), realized the error of his ways, and moved on from there. Now, if this was a habitual situation, then I'd want him to share so we can work through it together.

If we were to take the situation of flirting up to full fledged adultery, would I want him to share? Yes. If I was to ask my husband if he ever found himself flirting with other women, I would expect an honest answer. Something seem to not be shared though, because they can make a mountain out of a mole hill. This isn't so much as much about honest as full disclosure. While I'm not advocating we go about our shady business, not bothering to care unless we get caught, there are somethings that when shared will bring in a seed of doubt into a relationship where it really isn't warrented at all.

To sum it up, I don't think that 'sharing everything' in the name of honesty is a black and white issue.

[FunkyTown]

It is possible that these girls will want someone different from you, JBS, and that's okay - We usually want someone who we have a connection, with similar backgrounds to. Despite the words 'Opposites attract', the truth is very far from that.

Not to worry, though: I'm certain you'll find someone who you say 'I went inactive, heavily drank and had a host of one night stands.' and she'll laugh and say 'Me, too!'

Then, it's not even a big deal.

this is something i have wondered about, ie, how much do i tell a girl that i am dating, and at what points? I was in active for a number of years, got heavy into the "sex-drugs-and country music scene".....

i know alot of "good mormon girls" wont want to seriously date me because i have a past...wont date me period because i have tattoos,

so where does the "not being to open" vs. "foundation of lies" begin and end? If I date a girl start dating a girl, do i causually remark that when i was younger i did some stupid stuff...was inactive for a while...let her flill in the blanks... or would a good mormon girl be to naive to know that meant heavy drinking, one night stands, and smoking a metric ton of pot in my early 20s? The tattoos are can't be hidden forever...they are covered by a tshirt, but thats as far as that goes..

the other stuff i is there...and I ain't gonna deny it... but at what point does it become public knowledge...it really shouldn't. I've made my peace with the Lord, but that don't mean my wife doesn't want to know about all the stupid stuff i did..... Or she won't want to know details...maybe i'll find one that will be copasetic with " yeah, when i was younger i dabbled in drugs and drank quite a bit, had a few "girlfreinds" that wwere short term aand purely phsycial"...she might be okay with that....

I know most girls don't wanna hear the stories...and if they do...she's a BFF, or will be even if she's into me...cause they don't wanna dude like that...at least if they know soem of the gory details...even on the partying not the sexual indescresions, i dunno...this is a demon that rattles round my head every time i wanna ask a girl out... and i know for a fact that my time in utah was effected by the ink....

I might be moving to Phoenix this fall..is it gonna be differnt there? the best way i've figured to "ease a girl into it" is by saying....

"I kinda fell away from the church for a while after high school, didn't severe a mission, and did some really dumb things...etc"

dunno...i gotta jet for work..peace

[Jbs2763]

I know i'll find someone eventually that will put up with me...

just kind of impatient, lol

[redtide]

I completely agree.

In some cases I wonder if the purpose of full fledged openness is more to get it off the admitting chest rather than to be a strength to the relationship.

[lilered]

Another thought that came to my mind concerning this subject. Take the case of a spouse being married before, divorced or their spouse died, and then remarries say in their senior years. What earthly good would it do to know the details of every relationship either of them had prior to their marriage? Each knows of the prior marriage, each knows that the spouse was not a virgin, etc.. In my view, no earthly good would come out of knowing those type of details. What should matter is how happy they can make in the years they have left.