The ease of government-run health care!


Maxel
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These people do not realize the advantages of being without adequate health care. Makes you wonder what other frivolous reasons they have.

Don't you find it rather odd that the current health care system is not interested in helping anyone that pays for the care our of their own pocket - only when someone else is paying the bill?

The Traveler

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It may not be an ideal education, but it's still a free education. Do you have any idea how many uneducated children we would have if we didn't have free education? I agree that massive education reforms are needed (again though, fix the economy first), but ultimately I'd rather have a struggling system than none at all.

Godless, you know for a fact IT IS NOT FREE.

You can solve this very problem without having the government run it. Not only will it be better, more efficient, and actually work, it will remain independent of a politician's desire to buy a vote, and a lobbyists manipulations to gain advantages.

Talk to a successful home-schooler out there and they will show you a better way to run things... and IT IS FREE... or supposed to be except that the government will not give them back their portion of the money that they "didn't spend" on government education.

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Godless, you know for a fact IT IS NOT FREE.

You can solve this very problem without having the government run it. Not only will it be better, more efficient, and actually work, it will remain independent of a politician's desire to buy a vote, and a lobbyists manipulations to gain advantages.

Talk to a successful home-schooler out there and they will show you a better way to run things... and IT IS FREE... or supposed to be except that the government will not give them back their portion of the money that they "didn't spend" on government education.

Yes, it is not "free" in the sense that it is still being paid for by someone, but to the family who would never be able to afford it if it were completely privatized, it is essentially "free."

If you completely removed government from education, I do think that the competition would make the quality of education better but it would also deny education to many children whose parents either can't afford it or don't place a high enough value on their child's education to invest in it.

I'm certainly no fan of bureaucracy or the public school system (I dropped out of high school), but I do believe that overall having a tax funded minimal educational system is beneficial to society, because without it there is virtually no hope for children of a poor family to become educated and make greater contributions to society than flipping burgers.

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Yes, it is not "free" in the sense that it is still being paid for by someone, but to the family who would never be able to afford it if it were completely privatized, it is essentially "free."

If you completely removed government from education, I do think that the competition would make the quality of education better but it would also deny education to many children whose parents either can't afford it or don't place a high enough value on their child's education to invest in it.

I'm certainly no fan of bureaucracy or the public school system (I dropped out of high school), but I do believe that overall having a tax funded minimal educational system is beneficial to society, because without it there is virtually no hope for children of a poor family to become educated and make greater contributions to society than flipping burgers.

I did not say that having a mandate requiring education for all citizens is bad. And only because I feel VERY strongly that the citizenship need to be educated to cast a vote in a democratic election. And of course, with such a mandate, the government needs provisions to support those who cannot afford it. At the same time, I vehemently DISAGREE that the government should be the PROVIDER of education. I would rather they make "education vouchers" like they do food stamps for those less fortunate that they can take to any accredited school.

And that's the same as healthcare except that, unlike education, I don't agree that the quality of health of the citizens is the responsibility of government.

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I did not say that having a mandate requiring education for all citizens is bad. And only because I feel VERY strongly that the citizenship need to be educated to cast a vote in a democratic election. And of course, with such a mandate, the government needs provisions to support those who cannot afford it. At the same time, I vehemently DISAGREE that the government should be the PROVIDER of education. I would rather they make "education vouchers" like they do food stamps for those less fortunate that they can take to any accredited school.

And that's the same as healthcare except that, unlike education, I don't agree that the quality of health of the citizens is the responsibility of government.

I definitely see more where you are coming from now. I agree to some extent, but I also think that running all schools as businesses whose primary goal is to make a profit could certainly have some other adverse affects on education. Whether it would be worse than the mess we have now, I really don't know.

As for health care, I do think it is much like education in that a government should have some responsibility in providing it to their citizens.

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I keep hearing the advocates of National Health Insurance claim that the problem with current insurance providers is that they make a profit. They claim that 25% of insurance costs is simply profit to the insurance companies. But what I always ask them is: "Why have you been waiting all these decades for government to make a non-profit insurance company? Don't you know you could have already done that a long time ago? And, don't you know there are already such organizations out there?"

The only thing government can do that such a non-profit cannot do is compel people to pay in to the company by threat of force.

-a-train

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Hey Digital, this is just all my opinions, okay? I tend to be a bit vocal about my principles because I can't vote (not an American citizen), so I tend to try to tell others who can vote my viewpoints in the hopes that they can see where I'm coming from and vote my side in. :)

I definitely see more where you are coming from now. I agree to some extent, but I also think that running all schools as businesses whose primary goal is to make a profit could certainly have some other adverse affects on education. Whether it would be worse than the mess we have now, I really don't know.

Okay, for me, the best way to provide a service is to make it a business. Profit in a capitalist society is GREAT! It gives businesses impetus to do a better job. If left enough alone with the least statist intervention, profit is checked by the presence of competition and an educated society. For example, an educational institution who drives profit to the roof fueled by greed is checked by another educational institution competing for their students - because the other educational institution can always offer cheaper tuition. Therefore, I disagree with you that profit has an adverse effect on education.

Think of Wal-mart. Yes, Wal-mart Supermarket is a huge business - the reason, low cost. But, this cost is made at the expense of quality. Everybody can agree that Wal-mart has a relatively sub-standard quality especially in their fruit and produce. The question is, if the people consider it a good thing to sacrifice quality for cost. Apparently, a good sized population are not willing to sacrifice quality for cost, hence the success of competing grocery chains like Publix who offer a higher cost but superior quality as well. Therefore, no matter how greedy Wal-mart is, it's greed can be checked by its competition, because eventually, the competition will win out if Wal-mart continues to short-change quality.

Nobody wants to run a business that doesn't make a profit. Profit then, can be the driving force to improve quality, improve efficiency, and maintain low cost. The more the profit, the more money is there to circulate, the bigger the business becomes, the more jobs it creates, the more service it requires from other providers (e.g., bigger buildings required to contribute to the success of some construction company) and all this money came from a public willingly opening their wallets with eyes wide open getting a really good service - a high quality education.

As for health care, I do think it is much like education in that a government should have some responsibility in providing it to their citizens.

I do not agree. A government is not responsible for the health of its citizens except for those the government itself puts in harms way. Each citizen is responsible for their own health. It is completely different from education wherein, for a population to be able to cast a vote, or protect itself from tyranny, it needs to be educated.

Think of it this way. Peter, Paul, and John are good friends. Peter, a cashier at the grocery, contracted lung cancer. Paul, a restaurant manager, offered to give Peter $500 to contribute to his chemotherapy expenses. John, a neuro surgeon, offered to give Peter $50,000. But, Peter's chemotherapy cost more than the money they came up with, therefore, Paul, without any more money to contribute, decided to ask John to give Peter another $50,000, thinking he's a neuro-surgeon, he should be able to afford it. Well, unfortunately, John just spent all his money on John Jr who is in Harvard Medical School, so he is strapped for cash as well. Paul, thinking somebody has to pay for Peter's chemotherapy called the FBI and asked them to put a gun to John's head and force him to give Peter the money. That's how I see healthcare. There is no reason for the government to provide healthcare except to use its police-power to force compassion.

And, it has the danger of becoming another vote-buying tool like so many others already in place.

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It may not be an ideal education, but it's still a free education. Do you have any idea how many uneducated children we would have if we didn't have free education

Here's a big part of the problem, right here. Much of the American population has become so ignorant that they think that government programs, such as education, and the proposed health scare scam, are “free”.

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Don't you find it rather odd that the current health care system is not interested in helping anyone that pays for the care our of their own pocket - only when someone else is paying the bill?

The Traveler

I have a hard time understanding all the nuances for motivation in the current health care system too. Perhaps their profit as the bottom line outlook is influenced by what appears to be the most lucrative pay source.

I think the true bottom line should be the provision of adequate health care.

:)

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This is one disagreement I have with the free-market ideology verrrry strongly.

Australia's healthcare is mostly government owned, and it's generally very good healthcare with access to all people. If you don't want the socialised healthcare, there are church-owned (or other private) hospitals in many towns and cities.

Socialisation of healthcare is a very good thing, and I'm all too happy to have to pay for the betterment and availability of healthcare to fellow members of society.

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I don't want to write a novel in response to some of the preposterous things I've read in this thread, but here are a few thoughts:

#1

Nothing is FREE. Not even for poor people who don't carry their weight and pay taxes? How is that possible? Because the middle and upper brackets get soaked, absorbing those costs. This means they can't bring on those new employees, or expand their markets - because Uncle Sam is taking so much of their income that it's not desirable or not an option. And this is not some parroting of a right wing crazy. These are MY words - the words of a small business owner who is unable to expand properly because he's too busy being forced into giving charitable contributions to the myriad causes of our insane Congress.

We are already being taxed to death! Did you know that, based on heavy research, that the average amount of taxes ALREADY wrapped into the purchase price of the products you buy is 21%? And THEN when you check out with your purchases, you get taxed AGAIN!! And you pay for that with what's left of your paycheck AFTER Uncle Sam has taken his cut! Even BEFORE Obama, most of us were already at 50% taxation. It's simply hidden from the clueless populace via taxing-evil-corporations, via garnishing-your-wages.

#2

Competition is vital. My children attend one of UT's Charter Schools. Charter Schools are still federally funded, but so long as they fulfill certain specific requirements, are allowed to run their own programs.

And though there's no bus system, no dirt-cheap-but-nutritionally-devoid lunch program (there is, in fact, a lunch system - but it's healthy food that costs more), my children are receiving an education FAR SUPERIOR to their peers in the overcrowded public system where (I kid you not) around here, children sit on the floors of overcrowded classrooms. My children are being taught with a completely different system that caters to the FASTEST kid in the class, not the SLOWEST.

Test scores are through the roof. Parental involvement is not only encouraged (you can join your children's class any day, any time) - it's actually MANDATORY. My 1st child, the prodigy, is having his needs met so he's not bored and listless. My 2nd child's learning disabilities are personally addressed by his teachers and aids, and in-school programs are in place to 'coach' him through his challenges.

I could go on and on. But THE MORAL OF THE STORY is this: when you are able to engage the federal government in competition, wonderful things happen and you're better able to recognize how stale and feeble the bureaucratic methods really are.

#3

Health insurance is not a RIGHT. Sorry, people. It never has been and never should be. So long as we live in a culture where people are free to clog their arteries, turn into blimps on their couches, smoke their cigarettes, shrivel up their livers with the plethora of booze options, make a living on the food-eating-contest circuit, etc, etc, etc, --- YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO HAVE SOMEONE ELSE PAY FOR YOUR WAY OF LIFE!!!!!!!!!!

I could go on and on and on with this one, but I'd best not.

#4

Wake up, America! You're turning into mindless drones! Quit electing freak shows who go to Washington and forget who sent them there! Quit voting down party lines just because your parents did! Cease your covetous desires to gain personal increase from the wealth of those who have worked harder, smarter, and longer than you! Know that every single penny the government spends comes out of YOUR wallet. Even if you're part of the 50% of the population that only accounts for 1% of the tax revenues. How? Through every system that is illegally regulated, through every purchase you make, through the lower-pay of your jobs that result from Congress playing Robin Hood by STEALING from the rich to give to the supposedly poor.

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This is one disagreement I have with the free-market ideology verrrry strongly.

Australia's healthcare is mostly government owned, and it's generally very good healthcare with access to all people. …

Socialisation of healthcare is a very good thing, and I'm all too happy to have to pay for the betterment and availability of healthcare to fellow members of society.

Of course you think that. I see that you're a supporter of The Venus Project and the Zeitgeist movement, which are basically Marxism, modernized and rebranded. It makes perfect sense, that you would support something that would be perceived as bringing us closer to Marxism, such as the Sovietization of the health care industry.

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This is one disagreement I have with the free-market ideology verrrry strongly.

Australia's healthcare is mostly government owned, and it's generally very good healthcare with access to all people. If you don't want the socialised healthcare, there are church-owned (or other private) hospitals in many towns and cities.

Socialisation of healthcare is a very good thing, and I'm all too happy to have to pay for the betterment and availability of healthcare to fellow members of society.

I take it there are no waiting lists to have surgeries????

I do not agree with you that socialized medicine is a good thing....my opinion

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#3

Health insurance is not a RIGHT. Sorry, people. It never has been and never should be.

Unless of course you lived in every other industrial country in the world, where the interests of a few to make big bucks, does not override the publics right to recieve adequat health care.

YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO HAVE SOMEONE ELSE PAY FOR YOUR WAY OF LIFE!!!!!!!!!!

I think we are all connected to each other through eternal bonds and that in the big scope of things we are our brother's keeper. Our task is to help the least up to the greatest rather than horde the loot.

:)

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Socialisation of healthcare is a very good thing, and I'm all too happy to have to pay for the betterment and availability of healthcare to fellow members of society.

I totally agree I am in the UK - and like in the US depends where you live how good the healthcare is, but in the area I live in the healthcare is 1000s times better than in my in laws area of California and costs me an awful lot less.

Nothing has been more heartbreaking than saying to someone from the US why not got to the Dr or phone an ambulance only to be told they cannot afford it. Here dialing 999 is a no brainer or attending my GP surgery or something we can still do is get a Dr come visit us. The intial assesment is made quickly and if you need to be seen fast you need to be seen fast.

-Charley

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Unless of course you lived in every other industrial country in the world, where the interests of a few to make big bucks, does not override the publics right to recieve adequat health care.

Our public already receives health care. This is about insurance. This is about providing insurance to illegals! About providing non-US citizens with health insurance paid for by Americans!! This is about destroying a functional system to meet the needs of about 16 million people. This is about throwing away a system that handles 95% of us (with an 80% approval rating by us, I might add) - in order to cater to 5%. That's bull crap.

And comparing ourselves to the rest of the world is a move in the wrong direction. We don't WANT to be like Europe. We don't WANT to be like Australia. If you like THEIR system, then PLEASE catch the first boat out of the harbor.

I think we are all connected to each other through eternal bonds and that in the big scope of things we are our brother's keeper. Our task is to help the least up to the greatest rather than horde the loot.

Sorry, but this is an absolutely pathetic argument. Using a spiritual perspective to support a plan JUST LIKE SATAN'S is hardly a sales pitch. We aren't being given the option. We aren't able to exercise our compassion and charity. When the biggest, most ungainly, most inefficient system in the world is eagerly trying to confiscate MY MONEY - when I work so $#%^ hard to put food on my table and raise my kids and provide them with a decent life, don't even THINK that you're taking the higher road by greenlighting governmental theft of what I bleed, sweat, and kill myself to acquire. THEY have no right, and neither do YOU.

Go read the idiotic 1,000+ page bill. All you have to do is get to page 15 of the bill where you learn that OBAMA LIED YET AGAIN. He won't take our private insurance? Yeah. Not right up front. He'll just forbid adding anyone new to existing policy. He'll just have Congress concoct another loophole that forbids any changes, additions, shifts in your private policies. If anything changes (even your yearly premiums and copays), you're automatically disallowed to continue and must hop on the government welfare-health-program. And if you DON'T sign up and start paying, guess what happens come tax time?!?! They're gonna take that $$$ from you by force. The IRS will freeze your bank accounts and confiscate any and all your money until they bleed you dry.

If you REALLY want to be your brother's keeper, then I would admonish you to kill this bill and focus on contributing more to Fast Offerings. Shackling us all to each other doesn't actually fix the problems. Telling old people to take pain killers instead of getting that pacemaker they need (Obama suggested this) is NOT contributing to a better society.

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presumably the option of private healthcare won't be removed???????? certainly here our private healthcare is cheaper and better because of the NHS, my taxes plus a private healthcare package for my whole family would come to less than a healthcare package that covers much less in the US. And for that get great consultations,no waiting lists, very clean hospitals etc

-Charley

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Of course you think that. I see that you're a supporter of The Venus Project and the Zeitgeist movement, which are basically Marxism, modernized and rebranded. It makes perfect sense, that you would support something that would be perceived as bringing us closer to Marxism, such as the Sovietization of the health care industry.

I'm not going to turn this into a debate of why such an accusation against The Movement is so wrong, because that's totally off-topic. What you basically just said is "It's Marxism but everything is different!" Great antithesis to your own comment. The simplest argument (and I've said I can expand on these) is that we do not advocate a war of the classes, and Communism most certainly does. If you wish to have 'that' discussion start another thread or PM me.

A country with a high standard of living and pretty much the highest age expectancy on the planet, has a healthcare system which is centralised (and which also happens to be the best in the world, by many comments), in the words of their government:

"All inhabitants of Iceland have the right of access to the best possible health service at any given time for the protection of their mental, social and physical health. The law ensures that there is no discrimination against patients on the grounds of sex, religion, beliefs, nationality, race, skin color, financial status, family relations or status in other respect.

The health service in Iceland is primarily financed by central government. Financing is mainly based on taxes or 85% and 15% is fee for service.

The country is divided into health care regions, each with their own primary health care centres, some of which are run jointly with the local community hospital. The primary health care centers have the responsibility for general treatment and care, examination, home nursing as well as preventive measures such as family planning, maternity care and child health care and school health care.

Hospitals in Iceland may be ranked as specialized teaching hospitals, general hospitals and community hospitals. Hospitalization is free of charge. The specialized hospitals perform most operations and procedures in all specialist medical fields. The health service is staffed by trained and qualified professional groups.

Life expectancy in Iceland (2005) is among the highest in the world. Average life expectancy at birth for females is 83,1 years and for males 79,2 years. Infant mortality is among the lowest in the world - 2,3 per 1000 live births."

Fancy that, that dirty-filthy Marxist nation!

Australia's healthcare system (like any) has it's shortcomings. There have been issues with waiting at times, but generally it's fairly good. The only thing which causes some degree of consistent issue with our healthcare system is that 85% of the population lives in the urban areas, and with it constantly growing there is sometimes disparity in surgery waiting lists and so forth. However, if one wants to get their surgery done quicker they can go to a country hospital where the waiting lists are generally nowhere near as long.

Our biggest problem is a shortage of personnel (Australian's always seem to want a pay rise!).

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Australia's healthcare system (like any) has it's shortcomings. There have been issues with waiting at times, but generally it's fairly good. The only thing which causes some degree of consistent issue with our healthcare system is that 85% of the population lives in the urban areas, and with it constantly growing there is sometimes disparity in surgery waiting lists and so forth. However, if one wants to get their surgery done quicker they can go to a country hospital where the waiting lists are generally nowhere near as long.

Our biggest problem is a shortage of personnel (Australian's always seem to want a pay rise!).

Thats my experience too - the NHS is a bit clunky due to being the first of its kind it had no model to learn from or base itself on. But having experienced healthcare in the US with excellent travel insurance, and seen the lousy care my in Laws get for paying an awful lot of money I wouldn't trade it. The same happens in the US as here - and just guessing shortage of personnel in the US explains lack of English speaking nursing staff in some wards, same as here. Basically the care seemed to have all the shortcomings and be little different to my experience here but costs over 3 times as much, there is a reason obtaining travel insurance to the US is more expensive than most other countries

-Charley

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MY MONEY - when I work so $#%^ hard to put food on my table and raise my kids and provide them with a decent life, don't even THINK that you're taking the higher road by greenlighting governmental theft of what I bleed, sweat, and kill myself to acquire. THEY have no right, and neither do YOU.

I thought it was not our money but the money the Saviour had blessed us with personally I do not view my income as mine, but as what the Saviour has given me to live off and bless the world with. As the Saviour says render unto Caeser that which is Caesers

Plus you would have to work an awful lot less for the same standard of living if you paid just a little more taxes. Beauty of people pulling together. American's in my view pay very high taxes for what little they receive it much closer to theft than our system which returns for what you give.

-Charley

Edited by Elgama
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presumably the option of private healthcare won't be removed????????

I repeat: Congress has already written into the bill private insurance's death certificate.

A country with a high standard of living and pretty much the highest age expectancy on the planet..."All inhabitants of Iceland..."

Please, please, please tell me you're kidding!! ICELAND? So we should be like a nation that economically IMPLODED AND IS ONLY KEPT AFLOAT BY MONEY FROM OTHER NATIONS - ALL SO WE CAN HAVE SOCIALIZED MEDICINE? Lay off the crack pipe, my friend.

I thought it was not our money but the money the Saviour had blessed us with personally I do not view my income as mine, but as what the Saviour has given me to live off and bless the world with.

If the Savior came and asked me for my money, my home, my land, my vehicles, my astounding 27" TV, I'd give it to HIM in a heartbeat. Please STOP comparing a gluttonous, wasteful, broken system to Christ.

As the Saviour says render unto Caeser that which is Caesers.

Charley, I don't mean to be a jerk. You're a sister in the gospel and I love you for that.

But I can't help but point out that THIS IS EXACTLY WHY WE'RE NOT BRITISH!!! We wanted a government that didn't walk all over us, didn't do what IT thought was right (which really came down to and comes-down-to politicians securing and protecting their seats of power). Christ (since you like to bring Him into this debate) inspired good men to do great things, to draft the Declaration of End-Dependence, to draft the Constitution that has become the template for some 200+ constitutions around the world.

I am exercising my RIGHTS as a U.S. citizen. I am utilizing the rights and privileges secured by my Founding Fathers (through the inspiration of a loving Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ). I am crying "foul" against the way this current "regime" is ignoring the principles on which this country is based!!

I suspect you'll laugh at how wrong you think I am when I say this, but I am trying my best to fulfill prophecy! I am trying, as an Elder of this Church, to rescue our Constitution as it hangs by a thread.

Edited by Prodigal_Son
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I

If the Savior came and asked me for my money, my home, my land, my vehicles, my astounding 27" TV, I'd give it to HIM in a heartbeat. Please STOP comparing a gluttonous, wasteful, broken system to Christ.

I am not American but have personal experience of both systems both are gluttonous, wasteful and broken but the US healthcare system is far more so than the NHS.

The US is no anarchy and you pay taxes - day its a no tax society I will understand your arguement but as long as you have a government and voting system, flush toilets, ride on freeways, attend public schools, use the fire and police taxes are being paid.

OK I have limited experience of the US health system but it has yet to be positive on any level, hospitals have been filthy - here is my experience, and none of these people are lazyy most have worked hard to serve your country in a varying capacities - then perhaps why you can see I believe it needs to change

You really think your current system is working? When somone who has served your armed forces for over 40 years, to an elevated rank, has ok health insurance, cannot obtain adequate health care, where the ward he is on is so filthy my feet stuck to the floor, the nursing staff are unpleasant and standard of care very old fashioned. When his wife comes back from the funeral to 20 messages on her answerphone asking who is going to pay for the ambulance. this at one of the US's top hospitals.

When one man loses his home and has to take poorer paying job with different health insurance, because his daughter has a rare condition, because valuable time was lost and she had to have the surgery after birth rather than in the womb, she now has complications which means he has to stick with the lower paid job and has to struggle. - the same situation in the UK baby would have received keyhole surgery and suffer no further complications

When another man has to go to Canada for eye surgery because it not available in the US at a reasonable rate. I can go to Glasgow and get it.

When one child has to be adopted out because his parents cannot afford for him to be kept in NICU, they were given choice adopt him out or let him die.. they had health insurance it just didn;t cover a pre term baby. When my daughter was born in same circumstances she received excellent care and continues to receive it

When a woman has to way up if they can afford the ambulance to hospital when they are unsure if what they have is serious, she is not lazy working her butt off for her and her son to put herself back on track - would have been no brainer you worried your kid might be seriously ill you phone, you either get an ambulance or a Dr out to visit

Where another is given stupid unncessary tests whilst in process of painful miscarriage because she has excellent health insurance that will pay up - no point in screwing or wasting your own budget

Where a woman who has pneumonia is sent home to fend for herself - here temporary care would be found

Where another woman has received outdated dangerous advice on maternity care

You tell me which system is broke? sure if you can wait you have to but if its an emergency you get looked after straightaway without the added panic of the finances on top

I am not seeing why paying for roads, government officials to live in luxury, weapons is anyway more Christlike than universal healthcare

I am exercising my RIGHTS as a U.S. citizen. I am utilizing the rights and privileges secured by my Founding Fathers (through the inspiration of a loving Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ). I am crying "foul" against the way this current "regime" is ignoring the principles on which this country is based!!

I thought that people exercising their rights as US citizens voted in the current regime, sure its your right to speak out but its also another LDS persons right to disagree with you

-Charley

Edited by Elgama
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