The ease of government-run health care!

[a-train]

One of my major concerns with the arguments pure capitalists seem to have is that all forms of poverty are essentially around due to 'laziness' or stupidity and poor planning. That's patently not the case.

Liberal capitalists don't believe laziness is the cause of poverty, central planners do. Capitalists believe that the causes of poverty are many. Included among them are disease, famine, war, and a host of other factors, but among the greatest is centralized economic planning. Planners, not liberal capitalists, believe government needs to "stimulate" in order to keep people from being lazy. Liberal capitalists acknowledge that free people automatically tend to be industrious.

The right-wing planners are those crying about how socialism will make people lazy and unproductive. The truth is we don't know if socialism will make people lazy or more industrious or have no effect in that sphere, but we do know it will only depress the productive capability of even the most productive individuals and injure the competitive edge of domestic businesses in the global market-place and that is the real problem and the reason why socialism will make a nation less wealthy overall.

A fantastic insight to this understanding can be found in Democracy In America where Alexis de Tocqueville speaks of the contrast between the industrious north on the one side of the Ohio river and the lazy south on the other. He demonstrated that the issue which caused this contrast was not welfare, but freedom. Adam Smith pointed out the same issues with slavery in Wealth Of Nations. While it is quite possible that slaves in the south put in many more tedious hours of back-breaking labor than free laborers in the north, the overall productive capacity of the south was still greatly diminished by the strict economic and social controls of slavery.

-a-train

[FunkyTown]

Ah, but if that were true, A-train, then the south would have become more prosperous with the removal of those restraints. The south still suffers horribly from painful poverty in many areas.

A corporation is a strange fig. It has all the rights of the individual with none of the individuals responsibility.

I am highly skeptical of free market as a panacea, simply because mankind has proven that individuals again and again abuse their power and circumvent rules for their own selfish gain.

For instance: If a drug company found a cure for cancer using a cheap, plentifully available material that would also incidentally reduce their entire income due to the reduction of required drugs, I find it dubious that nobody would choose to bury that technology.

Alternately, when oil companies and auto manufacturers were in bed together, they buried the General Motors EV1(Although there was certainly blame to go toward the Californian government for that as well).

There are lots of examples where a lack of regulation has allowed the abuse of temporary positions of power. Will a free market eventually 'out' these errors? Certainly. It might take decades in some cases, or even centuries to right an issue. In the long run, a free market will eventually resolve this.

In the long run, we're all dead, however. In the interim, I'd like regulation to prevent abuses of power.

Liberal capitalists don't believe laziness is the cause of poverty, central planners do. Capitalists believe that the causes of poverty are many. Included among them are disease, famine, war, and a host of other factors, but among the greatest is centralized economic planning. Planners, not liberal capitalists, believe government needs to "stimulate" in order to keep people from being lazy. Liberal capitalists acknowledge that free people automatically tend to be industrious.

The right-wing planners are those crying about how socialism will make people lazy and unproductive. The truth is we don't know if socialism will make people lazy or more industrious or have no effect in that sphere, but we do know it will only depress the productive capability of even the most productive individuals and injure the competitive edge of domestic businesses in the global market-place and that is the real problem and the reason why socialism will make a nation less wealthy overall.

A fantastic insight to this understanding can be found in Democracy In America where Alexis de Tocqueville speaks of the contrast between the industrious north on the one side of the Ohio river and the lazy south on the other. He demonstrated that the issue which caused this contrast was not welfare, but freedom. Adam Smith pointed out the same issues with slavery in Wealth Of Nations. While it is quite possible that slaves in the south put in many more tedious hours of back-breaking labor than free laborers in the north, the overall productive capacity of the south was still greatly diminished by the strict economic and social controls of slavery.

-a-train

[Maya]

In my country the health care is run by governement. The good thing is that IF you are so unlucky that you would get canser or waht ever bad and costy thing you KNOW that if it was noticed in time you will get the best healtcare and dont need to sell everything for the treatment.

Also it dont cost much to go to a doctor and after some 10 times it is totally free. Only thing that you need to pay for are the medisines. Sometimes that too can ruin your economy.

We do also have the possibility to go priovate. Thsi ofcourse you have to pay yourself. I had to use that once, as I got a smal bit of something loose hard material from my knee in between somewhere there, where it hurt so bad I felt like throwing up all the time and had a baby of 3 months that I should have taken care of alone and a 2 year old. I could not even carry the baby from the caretable to the bead... I fell. I should have waited for the operation in the healtcare for 3-6 months ... so I went private next day. It was painful, but then it was over... it cost me some 700$, but was worth it.

Dentists here are not on governement pay and that is very noticible in your wallet.

I second the governement healtcare with a private possibility fot the rich and desperate.

[a-train]

Ah, but if that were true, A-train, then the south would have become more prosperous with the removal of those restraints. The south still suffers horribly from painful poverty in many areas.

But those restraints weren't suddenly removed. The South didn't see the last day of the war and say: "Ok, their right, lets all be capitalists now." Jim Crow laws were in effect well into the mid 20th Century, as well as protectionism for southern farmers and all sorts of other interventions. Heck, Kansas City schools were still keeping black students out of shool buildings just blocks from their homes because of racial quotas in 1995 when I was attending there!

A corporation is a strange fig. It has all the rights of the individual with none of the individuals responsibility.

Isn't it fantastic!!!! Actually, corporations possess no human rights whatsoever. No right of speech, thought, religion, assembly, etc. The only rights it has are those its creators give it, and among those, none are those rights which we usually define as distinctively human rights.

I am highly skeptical of free market as a panacea, simply because mankind has proven that individuals again and again abuse their power and circumvent rules for their own selfish gain.

This is what I don't understand. I hear advocates of planning say this all the time. Yet what is their solution to the problem? Deliver highly centralized power to a small elite. This doesn't compute.

For instance: If a drug company found a cure for cancer using a cheap, plentifully available material that would also incidentally reduce their entire income due to the reduction of required drugs, I find it dubious that nobody would choose to bury that technology.

I guess anything is possible, but do you really think that they could resist the massive profits that such a product/technique would bring? And, what indication is there that more expensive and less effective treatments would make more profits over the long run? I suppose Edison could have thought that the candle business was more profitable than the light bulb, but do we really think so? Could you imagine the marketshare that would be reaped over night by the company that brings a cure for cancer to market? If indeed they are selfish and greedy, I find it very difficult that they would go without bringing such an enormously profitable product (which they alone can produce) to the global market.

Alternately, when oil companies and auto manufacturers were in bed together, they buried the General Motors EV1(Although there was certainly blame to go toward the Californian government for that as well).

I've seen the movie and have a particular interest in the auto industry. But you have to admit that the REAL reason the EV1 didn't go into full production was because it had about a 100 mile range and a 3 hour charge time. Plus, I can buy a compact gas car for a fraction of the price that has a much longer range and refuels in less than 10 minutes. The EV1, for the vast majority of consumers would be more hassle at a higher price.

You can get an electric motorcycle like this one, many companies are now trying to offer these. These bikes are available to the general public, bikes like these have been available for years, they are not being supressed by some conspiracy. If you look at their locator map you can see that they are available locally all over North America and Europe. Why are they not changing the motorcycle world forever? They are just not cost effective. I can buy a Kawasaki 250 sport bike for less than half the price that will have a much longer range, a higher top speed, and refuels in less than two minutes. Don't get me wrong, just like the EV1, these bikes are usually selling out and are available only to those willing to sit for months on a waiting list. But they account for a microscopic niche market in the grand scheme of the motorcycle business which a great deal of people hope will eventually help developers build electric bikes (and ultimately cars) that are cost effective (both in money terms and in terms of the effort and time necessary to refuel). When that happens, there will be some big changes, I personally will be a consumer as I have watched and hoped for the last several years.

There are lots of examples where a lack of regulation has allowed the abuse of temporary positions of power. Will a free market eventually 'out' these errors? Certainly. It might take decades in some cases, or even centuries to right an issue. In the long run, a free market will eventually resolve this.

I disagree, an unregulated market, a market of anarchy, will never correct cases of abuse, not even in the long run. A free-market is NOT an unregulated market, it is one made regular by the Rule of Law, not arbitrary rule.

In the long run, we're all dead.

Now you are quoting Keynes.

however. In the interim, I'd like regulation to prevent abuses of power.

This is exactly why we don't want arbitrary regulation. Don't you see the difference?

-a-train

Edited July 23, 2009 by a-train

[Moksha]

What do you suggest for people who have no money or health insurance?

Suffer in the name of Conservatism so that the Insurance Industry may prosper. It is all about choice. Remember, it is your choice to suffer in silence or just be quite.

:)

[Just_A_Guy]

Suffer in the name of Conservatism so that the Insurance Industry may prosper. It is all about choice. Remember, it is your choice to suffer in silence or just be quite. :)

Actually, no; one suffers in the name of liberalism that trains one to not bother with coming up with any solutions (or with acting on solutions proposed by others), play the martyr, and wait for a white knight with a bailout.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Moksha]

... and wait for a white knight with a bailout.

You mean someone who cares about the heath care for all?

[Palerider]

You mean someone who cares about the heath care for all?

lets give them all healthcare.....lets give them all money since they don't have a job...afterall it wasn't there fault they lost their job....lets give them all a place to live...it wasn't their fault they can't make rent or mortgage payments.....we do care about people right....we are from the Gov't and we are here to help..

[Moksha]

Pale, the other side to that is, "We care only about profits, beyond that you can all eat cake".

However, beyond that millions are left without health care and wish not to ring up the insurmountable debt that emergency room visits can incur for a serious or chronic illness.

[prospectmom]

Did anyone see the Presidents speech on this . I do nto think it is anything like you all are saying.... Reduce waste........ reduce un needed double testing......... insurance that is affordable....... subsities only for the ones who still can not pay. sounds good to me... I think anything to help this situation would be nice. So many here are so negative and are happy to complain but I see no other solutions offered.

[Prodigal_Son]

Did anyone see the Presidents speech on this . I do nto think it is anything like you all are saying.... Reduce waste........ reduce un needed double testing......... insurance that is affordable....... subsities only for the ones who still can not pay. sounds good to me... I think anything to help this situation would be nice. So many here are so negative and are happy to complain but I see no other solutions offered.

Have you bothered to read the bill being offered? I read 3 pages of the actual bill and quit b/c that was as far as I needed to read to recognize what a putrid pile of crap it is.

Here's a PARTIAL list someone else made of it's, um, "highlights"...

Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!

Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice!

PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise

Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 ur banks accts 4 elect. funds transfer

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan 4 retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange 2 bring priv HC plans under Govt control.

PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs 4 priv. HC plans in the Exchange

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration ur Healthcare!

PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic approp svcs. Example - Translation 4 illegal aliens

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps 2 sign up indiv. for Govt HC plan

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members - U Health care WILL b rationed

-PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice

pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monop

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what u can make.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay 4 HC 4 part time employees AND their families.

Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Emplyr w payroll 400k & above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll

pg 150 Lines 9-13 Biz w payroll btw 251k & 400k who doesnt prov. pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll

Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesnt have acceptable HC accrdng 2 Govt will be taxed 2.5% of inc

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from indiv. taxes. (Americans will pay)

Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access 2 ALL Americans finan/pers recs

PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician svcs 4 Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, doesnt matter what specialty u have, you'll all be paid the same

PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Dr's time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans.

PG 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries

PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs

PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals 4 what Govt deems preventable readmissions.

Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Drs, treat a patient during initial admiss that results in a readmiss-Govt will penalize u.

Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Drs. what/how much they can own.

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand

pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have oppt to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!!

Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates estab. of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing

Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority 2 disqual Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing peeps in2 Govt plan

Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs ppl! WTF. My sis has down syndrome!!

Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Cmtte. Can u say HC by phone?

PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life

Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!

PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides apprvd list of end of life resources, guiding u in death

PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program 4 orders 4 end of life. The Govt has a say in how ur life ends

Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "adv. care planning consult" will b used frequently as patients health deteriorates

PG 429 Lines 10-12 "adv. care consultation" may incl an ORDER 4 end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV

Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.

PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment u will have at end of life

Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!?

Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment 2 a community-based org. Like ACORN?

PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt in2 ur marriage

Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Svcs including defining, creating, rationing those svcs

[Palerider]

Pale, the other side to that is, "We care only about profits, beyond that you can all eat cake".

However, beyond that millions are left without health care and wish not to ring up the insurmountable debt that emergency room visits can incur for a serious or chronic illness.

Millions are losing their homes.....millions are out of work....let the Gov't give them all they need......if a homeless person can get free healthcare......why not give them a place to live......Gov't can do it all.....

[prospectmom]

oh my gosh you all are so cynical... So what is the answer..... Pale my husband was out of work we did not expect a handout or free ride from anyone we reduced and did without. We made it because his unemployment was decent if you can even say that about it. Now he is back to work and we still spend better and waste less because of the experience. We wil be even better prepared if it should happen again. Sadly during this time my daughter was in the emergency room twice. Unnecessary tests were made and charges that shouldn't have been there were because we do not have insurance. We essentially have to pay more because of not having insurance. I think Dr's shouldn't be able to run so many tests with out at least asking. My daughter is a virgin and was asked about her cycle which had just passed. They still ran a $ 120 pregnancy test. The Dr would not listen to me and sent her home with vicodin and said she had the flu. The next day I had to take her back but took her to the other hospital witch ordered the tests from the first hospital, actually listened to me and by this time my daughter was on IV therapy morphine and other meds to bring her infection , and violent stomach ills to a manageable level. This ER doc was awesome and did not run any unnecessary tests and even apologized that the other DR did such a lousy job. so we ended up with two Er bills in two days the second hospital dis give us a discount fot not having insurance. So to me a bit of regulation is necessary or mabey they need to do a bit of their own housecleaning.

Again I see alot of critisism but do any of you have any answers???????? Pale it is so easy too be sarcastic about all this but what can be done??????? Prodigal Son, no I haven't read all the proposed bill.,...... I just know there has to be some change and why if it is so bad is the AMA backing the pres on healthcare reform????

The system as it is is full of greed and misuse and misappropriation of funds so whatis the answer... Do you have one????/ I would love to hear some ideas instead of all this bashing and just so you know I am not totally for the plan I just want to see some progress towards a better answer to something being done about the mess our health system is in.

[Palerider]

Good question....what can be done.....sarcastic...yes....especially when I see that if we cared about people we would want them to have healthcare....hey....the guy living in the street wants a place to live and food to eat. We have alot of problems, I do not believe the Government can fix them.

I know alot about what goes on in hospitals....I have one RN daughter and a my wife works in a Lab at the Hospital. I have 2 good friends that are Dr's.

Why can't we fix the problem we haveas opposed to starting a brand new program. We want the Gov't to run healthcare and they can't run anything correct.

They are trying to run this healthcare thru so fast no one knows what it will say. We only hear the rich are going to pay for it...yeah right.

[Palerider]

The hopsital my wife works at...the Dr over the lab gets a 200.00 dollar fee for all Lab results....he doesn't even read them.....

why can't we fix these problems and the Insurance problems.....we don't need a new system.

[Dravin]

Unnecessary tests were made and charges that shouldn't have been there were because we do not have insurance.

I'm inclined to think a lot of that is based off doctors covering themselves against malpractice.

What you only thought (that's what judgement and experience comes down to) that X was the problem? You didn't test it? Oh, you think my poor departed Daddy didn't want to spend the money to test something just to be sure? I suppose we'll never know because your failure to detect that Y with all the same symptoms but only shows up extremely rarely was the real cause. How were you supposed to know? Why the $2,500 test of course!

Edited July 26, 2009 by Dravin

[prospectmom]

you both make good points..... ambey the AMA, the hospitals , The Dr's and Nurses and staff should start..... and well of course the Insurance Companies

[Palerider]

I'm inclined to think a lot of that is based off doctors covering themselves against malpractice.

What you only thought (that's what judgement and experience comes down to) that X was the problem? You didn't test it? Oh, you think my poor departed Daddy didn't want to spend the money to test something just to be sure? I suppose we'll never know because your failure to detect that Y with all the same symptoms but only shows up extremely rarely was the real cause. How were you supposed to know? Why the $2,500 test of course!

you are correct....alot of that is because of malpractise suits....

[Prodigal_Son]

oh my gosh you all are so cynical... So what is the answer..... ...

Again I see alot of critisism but do any of you have any answers???????? ...

...Prodigal Son, no I haven't read all the proposed bill.,...... I just know there has to be some change and why if it is so bad is the AMA backing the pres on healthcare reform????

... I would love to hear some ideas instead of all this bashing and just so you know I am not totally for the plan I just want to see some progress towards a better answer to something being done about the mess our health system is in.

Here are my proposals:

SUGGESTION #1:

First, standardize insurance policies. (Government should NOT be allowed to join the fray, as it's not their right or responsibility.) Now, when I say "standardize", I mean that there should be a conglomerate that creates maybe a dozen different insurance plans. And those plans are the standard that ALL insurance companies use. This way WE, as consumers, can pit company against company - apples to apples - and compare pricing and performance.

SUGGESTION #2:

Open the state borders for insurance. It's ridiculous that we have to be state specific. It inhibits competition while promoting high costs and less accountability.

SUGGESTION #3:

Put some controls on lawsuits. Litigation needs to exist for those whose lives are destroyed via incompetence, but do a google search on awards and you'll find story after story of people who've won millions and millions of dollars for, shall we say, "questionable" wrongs???

By curbing this, the doctors will spend less on malpractice insurance. It will also reduce "defensive medicine" where doctors are running unnecessary tests to as standard CYA.

SUGGESTION #4:

Have some sort of oversight committee (that is comprised of medical/legal/insurance professionals) that does nothing but audit performance of medical practitioners. Let THEM keep the doctors on their toes to do what's right and to keep things in financial check.

SUGGESTION #5:

Reform Medicaid. I won't pretend to know HOW on this one, as it's a Hydra at this point... but perhaps make some adjustment that allows for temporary coverage of those who can PROVE they haven't the assets to afford TRULY CRUCIAL medical care.

[prospectmom]

Now send your ideas to your congresman and senator

great ideas I really wish we could come up with doable answers

[Palerider]

Now send your ideas to your congresman and senator

great ideas I really wish we could come up with doable answers

I think we have answers....the problem with politicians is....they only want to do things that will get them re-elected.....:)

[prospectmom]

while that is true it dosen't make sense that most are unhappy about the bills they are presenting

[Palerider]

while that is true it dosen't make sense that most are unhappy about the bills they are presenting

I am not an expert...but......listen to whats being said and how they are saying it....they want to vote this in before they go on their break.....if they go on their break and no healthcare bill is passed, they will catch it from all of us who are unhappy about it.....if they pass it before they go on their break....too late for anyone to complain, other than being voted out of office. The way we pay attention to politicians record.....we will all forget by the next election.....my opinion...:)

[Moksha]

Just read this in the Salt Lake Tribune:

Health care costs the average U.S. household about $15,000 a year, approximately $6,500 more than in other nations where medicine is not practiced in grass huts.

Do you think that maybe all the other industrialized countries have cost controls built in?

[Prodigal_Son]

Just read this in the Salt Lake Tribune:

Do you think that maybe all the other industrialized countries have cost controls built in?

That's weird. I saw the #'s for 2007 and it was $6,900. I have a hard time believing it more than doubled in a year (obviously the stat would have to be 2008...)