How do you know God exist?

[Dirk]

Now asking others how they came to know God exists is like going to church because your parents went to church! If you really want to know if God exists then I suggest reading James 1:5. Joseph Smith did and he got an answer

[Hemidakota]

As a former member of the church. I would love to know how you know God exist? I used to be an active member but I realized that I only believed in God and was a member of the church because my parents were. Now that I think for myself and have chosen to find out for myself if wether God exists or not. I would be very much interested in hearing or reading about your thoughts. How did you find out God was real?

I am studying the scriptures and I hope I have a vision like the one Joseph Smith had because I would really like to know if all this is true. I would like to know if God really exists and since this church, is a really great church and plus, it has a modern-day prophet and it's not a paid ministry. I think I can find the answers here.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Ask for a personal testimony....

[rameumptom]

The witnesses are (or should be) considered the LDSs best weapons. Unfortunately.. they've all passed on.. and if one can consider old writings true -- why not writings about dragons, mermaids, or Atlantis?

I'm simply playing devils advocate here..

The difference is that dragons are relegated to legend and a time when history was not very reliable. The witnesses of the Book of Mormon lived during recent history, when there is both a reliable written and oral history we can access on it.

David Whitmer gave his written testimony in newspapers. I doubt you'll find any ancient newspapers with eye witness accounts of dragons.

So, you are setting up a strawman, so you can easily knock it down. This isn't playing "devil's advocate" this is just being argumentative and silly.

[Gatorman]

So, how do you address Dragons and the such mentioned in the scriptures?

The difference is that dragons are relegated to legend and a time when history was not very reliable. The witnesses of the Book of Mormon lived during recent history, when there is both a reliable written and oral history we can access on it.

David Whitmer gave his written testimony in newspapers. I doubt you'll find any ancient newspapers with eye witness accounts of dragons.

So, you are setting up a strawman, so you can easily knock it down. This isn't playing "devil's advocate" this is just being argumentative and silly.

[bmy-]

The difference is that dragons are relegated to legend and a time when history was not very reliable. The witnesses of the Book of Mormon lived during recent history, when there is both a reliable written and oral history we can access on it.

David Whitmer gave his written testimony in newspapers. I doubt you'll find any ancient newspapers with eye witness accounts of dragons.

So, you are setting up a strawman, so you can easily knock it down. This isn't playing "devil's advocate" this is just being argumentative and silly.

History has never been very reliable.. it still is not today. 'The victor writes history'. Compare our history books to the ones in Russia (just an example).. you'll see quite a few discrepancies.

Never heard of the Loch Ness monster? That's recent.. and there's quite a few people who have reported seeing it.. they're not all crazies, either. It really comes down to picking and choosing whose testimony is worth much and whose is worth little.. right? Or rather, the fact that when one persons testimony agrees with ones own.. and the other persons does not -- people choose the one that best suits them.

[Gatsby]

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Where Do I Make My Stand?

Where Do I Make My Stand?

President James E. Faust

Second Counselor in the First Presidency

My dear brothers and sisters and friends, President Hinckley has reminded us that the “golden years” are filled with more lead than gold! That is why I am sitting down as I speak to you today. I am recovering from a slipped disk, which caused a pinched nerve in my back. I have been told that in time I can expect a full recovery.

I express my profound appreciation for the blessings that have come to the world through the magnificent service of our departed Brethren, Elders Neal A. Maxwell and David B. Haight of the Council of the Twelve Apostles. Our loss is great. We welcome Brother Uchtdorf and Brother Bednar, men of strength and faith, into the sweet councils of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

I humbly pray this morning that I may be understood and not misunderstood. In an increasingly unjust world, to survive and even to find happiness and joy, no matter what comes, we must make our stand unequivocally with the Lord. We need to try to be faithful every hour of every day so that our foundation of trust in the Lord will never be shaken. My message is one of hope and counsel for those who may wonder about the seemingly unfair distribution of pain, suffering, disaster, and heartache in this life. Some may ask:

“Why was I born with physical or mental limitations?”

“What did I do to deserve this heartache?”

“Why did my father have to suffer so much following a cruel, disabling stroke? He was such a righteous man and always faithful and true to the Lord and His Church.”

“Why did I have to lose my mother twice—once to the ravages of Alzheimer’s disease and, secondly, to death? She was such an angel.”

“Why did the Lord let our little baby girl die? She was so precious, and we loved her so much.”

“Why hasn’t the Lord answered our prayers the way we wished?”

“Life isn’t fair. We know some people who have done some very bad things, and yet they seem to have everything they want or need.”

Dr. Arthur Wentworth Hewitt suggested some reasons why the good suffer as well as the wicked: “First: I don’t know. Second: We may not be as innocent as we think. Third: … I believe it is because He loves us so much more than He loves our happiness. How so? Well, if on a basis of strict personal return here and now, all the good were always happy and all the bad suffered disaster (instead of often quite the reverse), this would be the most subtle damnation of character imaginable.” 1

President Kimball gave this insightful explanation:

“If pain and sorrow and total punishment immediately followed the doing of evil, no soul would repeat a misdeed. If joy and peace and rewards were instantaneously given the doer of good, there could be no evil—all would do good and not because of the rightness of doing good. There would be no test of strength, no development of character, no growth of powers, no free agency. … There would also be an absence of joy, success, resurrection, eternal life, and godhood.” 2

Our love of God must be pure, without selfish intent. The pure love of Christ must be the motive in our devotion.

Now all this suffering might indeed be unfair if everything ended at death, but it doesn’t. Life is not like a one-act play. It has three acts. We had a past act, when we were in the premortal existence; and now we have a present act, which is mortality; and we will have a future act, when we return to God. 3 As Jesus promised, “In my Father’s house are many mansions.” 4 We were sent into mortality to be tested and tried. As the Lord explained to Abraham, “We will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them.” 5

Our past and present sufferings cannot, as Paul said, “be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us” 6 in the eternities. “For after much tribulation come the blessings. Wherefore the day cometh that ye shall be crowned with much glory.” 7 So tribulation is useful in the sense that it is helpful to get into the celestial kingdom.

Some, because they lack faith or understanding of the eternal plan, become bitter and lose hope. One such was a 19th-century writer who achieved both success and wealth with his dazzling wit and writing style. His wife came from a religious family, and he wanted to have faith in God but wasn’t really sure God existed. Then he was hit by a series of crushing blows. In 1893 a national financial crisis left him deeply in debt. His oldest daughter died while he was on a speaking tour. His wife’s health failed, and she died in 1904. His youngest daughter died in 1909. His own health declined. His writing, which had formerly been so full of sparkle, now reflected his bitterness. He became progressively depressed, cynical, and disillusioned and remained so until his death in 1910. With all his brilliance, he lacked the inner strength to deal with adversity and simply resigned himself to his misfortunes.

It’s not so much what happens to us but how we deal with what happens to us. That reminds me of a passage from Alma. After a long war “many had become hardened,” while “many were softened because of their afflictions.” 8 The same circumstances produced opposite responses. The writer who lost so much was not able to draw from the well of faith. Each of us needs to have our own storehouse of faith to help us rise above the troubles that are part of this mortal probation.

Thomas Giles, a Welsh convert who joined the Church in 1844, also suffered much in his lifetime. He was a miner, and while he was digging coal in the mine, a large piece of coal hit him on the head and inflicted a wound nine inches long. The doctor who examined him said the injured man would not live longer than 24 hours. But then the elders came and administered to him. He was promised that he would get well, and that “even if he would never see again, he would live to do much good in the Church.” Brother Giles did indeed live but was blind the rest of his life. Within a month of his injury “he was out traveling through the country attending to his ecclesiastical duties.”

In 1856 Brother Giles and his family immigrated to Utah, but before he left his homeland, the Welsh Saints presented him with a harp, which he learned to play skillfully. At Council Bluffs he joined a handcart company and headed west. “Though blind he pulled a handcart from Council Bluffs to Salt Lake City.” While crossing the plains his wife and two children died. “His sorrow was great and his heart almost broken, but his faith did not fail him. In the midst of his grief he said as did one of old, ‘The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away; blessed be the name of the Lord.’ ” 9 When Brother Giles arrived in Salt Lake City, President Brigham Young, who had heard his story, loaned Brother Giles a valuable harp until his own arrived from Wales. Brother Giles “traveled from settlement to settlement in Utah, … gladdening the hearts of the people with his sweet music.” 10

How we use our God-given moral agency explains why some things happen in our lives. Some of our choices have unforeseen results, which may be good or bad. But often we know in advance that some of our choices will have detrimental or even harmful consequences. I call these “informed choices” because we know our acts will have disastrous results. These informed choices include illicit sexual relations and the use of drugs, alcohol, or tobacco. Such poor informed choices may prevent a person from going on a mission or receiving temple blessings. We may make incorrect informed decisions because the lures of the world distort reality and make us vulnerable. In dating relationships with the opposite sex, making a wrong choice early may limit making the right choice later.

So where should each of us make our stand? As we demonstrate our devotion to God by our daily acts of righteousness, He can know where we stand. For all of us this life is a time of sifting and refining. We all face trials. Individual members in the early days of the Church were tested and refined when they had to decide if they had the faith, like Brother Giles, to put their belongings in a wagon or a pioneer handcart and travel across the American plains. Some did not have the faith. Those who did traveled “with faith in every footstep.” In our time we are going through an increasingly difficult time of refining and testing. The tests are more subtle because the lines between good and evil are being eroded. Very little seems to be sacred in any of our public communication. In this environment we will need to make sure where we stand all of the time in our commitment to eternal truths and covenants.

We learn much about dealing with suffering from “a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.” 11 Satan obtained leave from the Lord to tempt and try Job. Job was rich and had seven sons and three daughters, but his property and children were all destroyed. What effect did this have on Job? Said he, speaking of the Lord, “Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him,” 12 and, “He also shall be my salvation.” 13 Job attested, “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.” 14 Job completely trusted the Lord to take care of all of the other concerns.

The way to find joy in this life is to resolve, like Job, to endure all for God and His work. By so doing we will receive the infinite, priceless joy of being with our Savior in the eternities. As we sing in one of our well-known hymns:

The soul that on Jesus hath leaned for repose

I will not, I cannot, desert to his foes;

That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,

I’ll never, no never, no never forsake! 15

President Howard W. Hunter once said, “God knows what we do not know and sees what we do not see.” 16 None of us knows the wisdom of the Lord. We do not know in advance exactly how He would get us from where we are to where we need to be, but He does offer us broad outlines in our patriarchal blessings. We encounter many bumps, bends, and forks in the road of life that leads to the eternities. There is so much teaching and correction as we travel on that road. Said the Lord, “He that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom.” 17 “For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth.” 18

As we live on earth we must walk in faith, nothing doubting. When the journey becomes seemingly unbearable, we can take comfort in the words of the Lord: “I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee.” 19 Some of the healing may take place in another world. We may never know why some things happen in this life. The reason for some of our suffering is known only to the Lord.

President Brigham Young offered the profound insight that at least some of our suffering has a purpose when he said:

“All intelligent beings who are crowned with crowns of glory, immortality, and eternal lives must pass through every ordeal appointed for intelligent beings to pass through, to gain their glory and exaltation. Every calamity that can come upon mortal beings will be suffered to come upon the few, to prepare them to enjoy the presence of the Lord. … Every trial and experience you have passed through is necessary for your salvation.” 20

We have much reason to hope. Joy can be ours if we are willing to sacrifice all for the Lord. Then we can look forward to the infinitely priceless possibility of overcoming all the challenges of this life. Then we will be with the Savior forever and, as President Brigham Young also said, “anticipate enjoying the glory, excellency and exaltation which God has prepared for the faithful.” 21 God lives, Jesus is the Christ, President Gordon B. Hinckley is our prophet, and this is a time for all of us to prepare to meet God. I so testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[rameumptom]

History has never been very reliable.. it still is not today. 'The victor writes history'. Compare our history books to the ones in Russia (just an example).. you'll see quite a few discrepancies.

Never heard of the Loch Ness monster? That's recent.. and there's quite a few people who have reported seeing it.. they're not all crazies, either. It really comes down to picking and choosing whose testimony is worth much and whose is worth little.. right? Or rather, the fact that when one persons testimony agrees with ones own.. and the other persons does not -- people choose the one that best suits them.

Apples and oranges. There's a huge difference between flying, fire-breathing reptiles, and a possible swimming sea creature. St George did not defeat the Loch Ness monster's ancestor.

And while it used to be true that history is written by the victors, with the modern age of Internet, all histories (or points of view) have a chance to be aired and considered. White man defeated the American Indian, yet they still tell their tale. Iran and China have a strong hold on its history, except for Twitter, Facebook, and a thousand blogs that speak for them.

It is very difficult to destroy a people from history today. We only know about Pharaoh Akhnaten because archaeologists found his city that was hidden and buried after his death by his enemies. What we know of the Maya and other Central American tribes come from 5 books that survived the Spanish conquest, and oral tradition. IOW, it almost didn't survive at all.

History IS reliable. It just isn't an exact science, or even a science. Most people would agree that Hitler was evil. That seems to be a rather reliable assessment of history. Most people agree that using nuclear bombs in Iran or North Korea is a bad precedent based upon history. We can learn from history, because much of history IS reliable. Otherwise, history is completely useless if there is no way to determine its validity.

[bmy-]

Apples and oranges. There's a huge difference between flying, fire-breathing reptiles, and a possible swimming sea creature. St George did not defeat the Loch Ness monster's ancestor.

It's not apples and oranges at all.. it's a testimony of a mythical creature from people who we have no reason to doubt. Does that validate the theory? They saw something, so why do we doubt them and not the witnesses? When everything else is equal.. perhaps it's because the witnesses testimony agrees with our own. Do not get me wrong.. I am not doubting what they said they saw.. I'm just showing that I did not set up a straw-man :)

And while it used to be true that history is written by the victors, with the modern age of Internet, all histories (or points of view) have a chance to be aired and considered. White man defeated the American Indian, yet they still tell their tale. Iran and China have a strong hold on its history, except for Twitter, Facebook, and a thousand blogs that speak for them.

The internet is a funny thing.. there's a bunch junk to sift through.. but you can find useful information if you look in the right areas. I do think history being written by the victors is not the issue any longer.. now.. it's that the victors control what is taught as history. The truth takes a back-seat to agenda as i've seen in my history books during grade school.

Edited August 13, 2009 by bmy-

[Guest missingsomething]

Because if that's what it takes to know God exists and it doesn't happen does that mean God doesn't exists?

How many people do you know that have had that same kind of vision? I'm just saying don't expect it.

Im sure ALma the younger didnt expect to see angels either....

Whats wrong with this vs. asking for proof? Same difference isnt it?

[Guest missingsomething]

Gastby,

There is no way that I can prove to you, or anyone else for that matter, that God exists. If you want to know you have to be willing to do the work - which you are. Investigate. Listen to points of view. Take the chance and pray as if He did exist... what have you got to loose? Then, listen for an answer - watch for an answer. God will answer you if you are willing to accept his answer. And He will do so in a manner that will "speak" to you - that you will know and be able to recognize.

I think what Pam was trying to say is that more than likely He will answer with that "still small voice" so dont wait for the glaring sirens if you have a sweet, quiet song singing in your ears now. But I believe anything is possible. And I dont believe you have to be a man of great faith to receive such an experience. He answers us how we need to be answered

For me, I read the scriptures, I prayed as if He was real, I trusted my gut feeling that I didnt just appear.... and that there had to be something more than just a blob of time for this life. And then I listened for the answer and I accepted the feelings of comfort, peace, (hard to explain) as confirmation that He does exist. And ... truth be told... even if I turn out to be wrong... Im no worse off having trusted in Him... Im a better person and I treat others better and I am helped along my way.

Edited August 13, 2009 by missingsomething

[Guest missingsomething]

Kudos to you for taking this step! God has no grandchildren, only sons and daughters. No such thing as borrowed or inherited light.

I am SO gonna use that ! I LOVE IT. Awesome!

[Hemidakota]

rameumptom;399003Visions do not give a person the strength to continue in faith. Only a spiritual witness can do that.

Incorrect statement. If that was the case, Joseph Smith would not be able to stand in his days of tribulation. Visions are spiritual witness to the persons whether it was caused by their own faith/hope or prior desire to know or a person who prayed over another soul, in the case of Alma the Younger by Alma.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Im sure ALma the younger didnt expect to see angels either....

Whats wrong with this vs. asking for proof? Same difference isnt it?

He didn't since his heart was not in the right but it was Alma faith [father] that brought this mechanism to happen in Alma the Younger life. A vision that was spiritual awakening for this young man's life.

It starts with desire to have a personal witness...but it comes unexpectedly and when you least expect it.

[Hemidakota]

I'm not going to disagree with that. But I still stand by my comment not to expect to receive a vision of the magnitude that Joseph Smith had.

Why not? Is GOD respecter of persons?

[rameumptom]

The scriptures teach that there are various Gifts of the Spirit and each person has been given at least one, if not several, in order to grow in spirituality and faith. If we are not paying attention to the gifts given us, and instead insisting on other gifts (First Vision, perhaps) that God has chosen not to give us at this time, then we are literally looking a gift horse in the mouth.

I knew a guy 25 years ago who never thought he had had a spiritual witness of the gospel, though he was faithful in it. Yet this same man, who had wanted to be a farmer, knew that God wanted him to be a lawyer, instead. I asked him once how he could know that, IF it wasn't because of some spiritual guidance/witness/gift?

Sometimes we have to recognize the gifts God has given us, and see Him in those gifts, rather than seeking for proofs that just aren't ours to have right now. The parable of the talents fits in perfectly. Those who take the gifts/talents they now have, and work with them, will receive more. But those who ignore/reject the talents/gifts they have been given, will lose that talent and not be given any other.

[KrazyKay]

Ram your post reminded me of something that happened when I was a child. It was Christmas morning, I was 10 years old and my brother was 8 years old. I received a camcorder from "Santa". My little brother was jealous, he wanted a camcorder and started begging and begging my parents to get him one too - to the point of crying and throwing a temper-tantrum. I will never forget what my dad said to him: "When you are mature enough to handle the responsibility of owning a camcorder, then we will get one for you."

I can see our Heavenly Father saying the same thing to his children here who are praying to see a vision like the prophets see: "When you are mature enough spiritually and have enough faith to handle the responsibility of a vision, then will I give you a vision."

How many people are at the maturity level and have enough faith to handle the responsibility that comes with seeing a vision? I know that I am not there yet.

The level of faith that I think is required is the level that Jesus mentions to his disciples when they asked him to increase their faith: (Luke 17:6)

And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea, and it should obey you.

[Hemidakota]

Again, we are not bound by one gift or a few gifts. There is nothing set in concrete about the many gifts and talents we allowed to achieve. But our attitude should be as one who should seek other gifts as we mature in the Gospel of Christ. It should be always to seek the same gifts as Jesus Christ and Joseph receive and become the exemplar of the Savior for others in this life. Become that beacon for Christ in building His kingdom and bring glory unto Him. Limiting ourselves to one gift or few gifts is not what the Lord has intended for us. We can seek the same desire as Enoch did...we can seek the same as Abraham desire....we can become a great people if we choose it. There is nothing now since we have the fullness of the Gospel that can prevent us as a people in not achieving what Joseph Smith has achieved in his life. It is us, members of the church who prevents this from happening.

Any revelation or spiritual vision is reward from the Godhead to those who receive it with gratitude, From that, like Mary, mother of the Savior, we cherish it for life...and Ram your last statement is the proof of what we should be doing. Our goal after receiving the fullness of the Priesthood is to seek out the Godhead.

Krazy, you reference in Luke is dealing with the Apostles who did not achieve adequate faith when they have not even receive the Holy Ghost as a comforter until after the Savior left. When the Savior left, it was given to them and they in fact, achieve the faith necessary to accomplish many miracles among men after He left. Something you may not seen. It was not time for them to achieve this status when the Savior was in there midst.