The Trinity

[prisonchaplain]

Sometimes I wonder why PC is not LDS yet...

Okay, PC... let's hear it.

Why do I get this question every time I post a link to the Assemblies of God website???

[Guest]

Why do I get this question every time I post a link to the Assemblies of God website???

Because the lds.org website is a better read? :D:lol:

[prisonchaplain]

Because the lds.org website is a better read? :D:lol:

Perhaps...if you discount the video testimonies in which some of those speaking look suspiciously caffeinated.

[RiversideGuy]

Snow has asked a sincere question, and everyone keeps dancing around this, with guesses ranging from a pre-Council vague trinitarianism in the apostolic writings to the writings of early church fathers in the 2nd century, to the Nicean council. But, here especially, at a site favorable to restorationism, I figured a true and accurate date is required. So, here it is: The Trinity was affirmed as official doctrine during the General Council of the Assemblies of God, in 1916.

Almost immediately, leaders were faced with a doctrinal dispute – whether to abandon traditional Trinitarian theology in favor of a modal monarchian view of the godhead (also called the "New Issue" or Oneness theology). In 1916 the General Council approved a Statement of Fundamental Truths, which affirmed Trinitarian orthodoxy.

History of the Assemblies of God

This should resolve the issue. :-)

I have a question. Do you believe in one God revealing Himself in 3 ways, or do you believe in three beings (personages) who are in their very essence one GOD?

[Mason]

Yes - it may have been known but my question is when did it become an official belief.

2nd Ecumenical Council. (381 AD). Arianism was officially condemned at this council.

[Kukui]

The way I remember it is that Clement of Rome (? – 96 A.D.) clearly wrote of three distinct and separate persons in the Godhead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertullian'> Tertullian, (160 – 220 A.D.) first broached the subject. "Three Persons, one Substance" as the Latin "tres Personae, una Substantia"

But it was Origen (185–254 A.D.) that fully developed the doctrine of the trinity, or the three persons in one idea.

Kukui

[Faded]

Constantine the Great and the Council of Nicaea can be credited in the first real attempt to mandate belief in the Trinity. Enforcement was initially in the hands of Constantine, and it wasn't too long after Nicaea that he sought for reconciliation with Arian believers. Arius was restored to full fellowship while the greatest proponent of the Trinity, Athanasius, was exiled. So for good or for ill, absolute obedience to Nicaea was not clearly established at that time.

Constantine's son and successor Constantius was more Arian than anything else, and his reign saw a great deal of missionary work into the Germanic lands. Arianism and other theories on the nature of God persisted for many centuries. And things get really fuzzy when advocates of absolute acceptance of the Council of Nicaea start labeling anything non-Trinitarian as Arianism.

Arianism and other forms of non-Trinitarian belief survived for many centuries, but died out inside the Roman Empire before the end of the 7th century. Arian Christianity persisted in outside the Roman Empire for many centuries after that, particularly in the German Kingdoms. Eventually, Arian Christianity diminishes and mostly dies out there as well, but I don't know of a clear point in time when that was completed. I suppose that the answer to Snow's question would be, "whenever the last vestiges of Arianism died out and were no long the mainstream of Christian belief anywhere in the world." I have no idea when that happened exactly, but sometime after 1000 AD is likely.

[prisonchaplain]

I have a question. Do you believe in one God revealing Himself in 3 ways, or do you believe in three beings (personages) who are in their very essence one GOD?

The Trinity is the latter, though there seems to be a distinction between "personages" (an LDS term that I believe replies a total separation of essence) and persons, which indicates sovereignty of personality. The former is the modalist heresy.

[Soninme]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiversideGuy

I have a question. Do you believe in one God revealing Himself in 3 ways, or do you believe in three beings (personages) who are in their very essence one GOD?

The Trinity is the latter, though there seems to be a distinction between "personages" (an LDS term that I believe replies a total separation of essence) and persons, which indicates sovereignty of personality. The former

The Biblical doctrine of the Trinity states that there is only one being or essence of God and within that being are three eternally distinct persons.

[Dymmesdale]

Sorry if someone already answered, but I don't have time to read the whole thread right now (i definitely will when i can!)

The term, 'Trinity' was coined by Tertullian in the 2nd century A.D. but the concept or understanding God as such was not invented by him, that was understood by the apostles themselves.

[Dymmesdale]

The issue of the trinity, and hammering out just who the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost were individually and collectively was the primary concern of the catholic church for the first four centuries after Christ. The Athanasian Creed does a wonderful job of defining the Trinity, as far as we can understand it, being finite beings with finite capacity for understanding. The athanasian creed says:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

Hope that helps.

[Dominic_Korozya]

The doctrine began here;

John 8:58

"I tell you the truth, before Abraham was, I am."

[Dominic_Korozya]

Perhaps...if you discount the video testimonies in which some of those speaking look suspiciously caffeinated.

[MissDiane43]

bmy - love your reply .. too cute! LOL

[pam]

Well it's a shame he won't see your comment. He was banned several months ago.

[MissDiane43]

Oh well ... it's a shame he "bmy" was banned, but things like that do happen when people don't pay attention to the rules.

Pam, thanks for the head's up.

Well it's a shame he won't see your comment. He was banned several months ago.

[Maureen]

bmy - love your reply .. too cute! LOL

Well it's a shame he won't see your comment. He was banned several months ago.

That is a shame, I enjoyed bmy's perspective on many threads.

M.

[Snow]

Sorry if someone already answered, but I don't have time to read the whole thread right now (i definitely will when i can!)

The term, 'Trinity' was coined by Tertullian in the 2nd century A.D. but the concept or understanding God as such was not invented by him, that was understood by the apostles themselves.

Really?

Can you point to a single apostle that understand the "Trinity" as promulgated in the Creeds?

[Soninme]

Snow Quote:

Originally Posted by Dymmesdale

Sorry if someone already answered, but I don't have time to read the whole thread right now (i definitely will when i can!)

The term, 'Trinity' was coined by Tertullian in the 2nd century A.D. but the concept or understanding God as such was not invented by him, that was understood by the apostles themselves.

Really?

Can you point to a single apostle that understand the "Trinity" as promulgated in the Creeds?

I would point to all of them:)

The teaching of the Trinity comes from the Bible.

Some examples;

The Bible says there is only one God. 1 Corinthians 8:4. Romans 3: 29-30. 1 Timothy 2:5

The Bible says the Father is God. Galations 1:3

The Bible says the Son is God. John 1:1

The Bible says the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5: 3-4. 1 Corinthians 3:16

Three persons, one God. Isaiah 48:16. Isaiah 61:1. 2 Corinthians 13:14. Mathew 28:19

Question. Who raised Jesus from the dead?

The Bible says God did it. Acts 4:10

The Bible says the Father did it. Galations 1:1

The Bible says the Son raised Himself from the dead. John 2:19-21

The Bible says the Holy Spirit did it. Romans 8:11.

The Triune God did it.

These are but a few.

Thanks

[gabelpa]

None of those quoted scriptures uses the word "Trinity". Methinks a study of early Christian history is in order, as before the Council of Nicea, there were a good number of Unitarians, believing that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit were three distinct individuals, one in purpose, thus being "one God" but three in spirit and body.

[Snow]

I would point to all of them:)

The teaching of the Trinity comes from the Bible.

Some examples;

The Bible says there is only one God. 1 Corinthians 8:4. Romans 3: 29-30. 1 Timothy 2:5

The Bible says the Father is God. Galations 1:3

The Bible says the Son is God. John 1:1

The Bible says the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5: 3-4. 1 Corinthians 3:16

Three persons, one God. Isaiah 48:16. Isaiah 61:1. 2 Corinthians 13:14. Mathew 28:19

Question. Who raised Jesus from the dead?

The Bible says God did it. Acts 4:10

The Bible says the Father did it. Galations 1:1

The Bible says the Son raised Himself from the dead. John 2:19-21

The Bible says the Holy Spirit did it. Romans 8:11.

The Triune God did it.

These are but a few.

Thanks

You misunderstood the question. I didn't ask if someone could find individual bits and pieces in the scriptures that each could be interpreted to support some component of the concept of the Trinity. What I asked for was an identification of an apostle who demonstrates an understanding of the Trinity as promulgated but the Creeds and Councils

Let's me boil down the Trinity to the essential points:

3 individual hypostases or personages which together make up one co-eternal, co-equal God composed of one substance or ousia.

For that matter, can you demonstrate that Christ knew that He was part of the Trinity as defined by the Creeds and Councils?

btw: The authors of Isaiah, Timothy, John, Acts and Matthew were not apostles.

[Soninme]

You misunderstood the question. I didn't ask if someone could find individual bits and pieces in the scriptures that each could be interpreted to support some component of the concept of the Trinity. What I asked for was an identification of an apostle who demonstrates an understanding of the Trinity as promulgated but the Creeds and Councils

Please forgive me but the "understanding of the Trinity as promulgated by the Creeds and Councils" comes from the cumulative teachings of all the apostles and Old Testament prophets. Not the other way around.

Let's me boil down the Trinity to the essential points:

3 individual hypostases or personages which together make up one co-eternal, co-equal God composed of one substance or ousia.

You are right these terms are not in scripture.

By the way, is Jesus a man. Is Jesus a created god? Is He to be worshipped? Is He also the Father? Who or what is the Holy Spirit? Do we worship Him? Who is the Lord? Who is the Creator?

For that matter, can you demonstrate that Christ knew that He was part of the Trinity as defined by the Creeds and Councils?

Not without quoting scriptue.

btw: The authors of Isaiah, Timothy, John, Acts and Matthew were not apostles.

Paul, who wrote 1 and 2 Timothy, John and Mathew are apostles.

[Snow]

Please forgive me but the "understanding of the Trinity as promulgated by the Creeds and Councils" comes from the cumulative teachings of all the apostles and Old Testament prophets. Not the other way around.

Then this ought to be quite easy for you. Name an apostle who understood the Trinity as defined in the Creeds and Councils and demonstrate that he did.

You are right these terms are not in scripture.

I don't care if the particular terms are used or not. It it the concepts I am interested in. If you are aware of anyone from the NT that understands the credal Trinity, please demonstrate it.

By the way, is Jesus a man. Is Jesus a created god? Is He to be worshipped? Is He also the Father? Who or what is the Holy Spirit? Do we worship Him? Who is the Lord? Who is the Creator?

I don't know why you are asking my opinion. It is the opinion of the apostles that is at issue.

Not without quoting scriptue.

By all means, please quote the scripture that demonstrate that Jesus understood God as three individual persons that are one God, co-eternal, co-equal, and consubstantial.

Paul, who wrote 1 and 2 Timothy, John and Mathew are apostles.

Paul didn't write 1st and 2nd Timothy. They are pseudepigraphical.

The Book of Matthew is anonymous, but it certainly wasn't written by an eyewitness to the events it describes.

John was written by multiple authors ca 95-120 CE.

[Soninme]

Then this ought to be quite easy for you. Name an apostle who understood the Trinity as defined in the Creeds and Councils and demonstrate that he did.

Like I posted before; ask any one of them, who raised Jesus from the dead?

Luke says God did it. Acts 4:10 How many Gods did it, 1 or 3? My answer is 1.

Paul says the Father did it. Galations 1:1

John says the Son raised Himself from the dead. John 2:19-21

Paul says the Holy Spirit did it. Romans 8:11.

Are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit 1 person or 3? My answer is 3.

So Who did it? Answer; The Triune God did it.

2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Quote:

By the way, is Jesus a man. Is Jesus a created god? Is He to be worshipped? Is He also the Father? Who or what is the Holy Spirit? Do we worship Him? Who is the Lord? Who is the Creator?

I don't know why you are asking my opinion. It is the opinion of the apostles that is at issue.

I agree and the Nicene, and I would also say the Athanasian, Creed represents the cumulative teachings of the Bible.

By all means, please quote the scripture that demonstrate that Jesus understood God as three individual persons that are one God, co-eternal, co-equal, and consubstantial.

Ok :) Here are but a few.

Please bear with my questions.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. Here the Father is the only true God.

1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Here Jesus is the true God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Does Jesus believe He is God?

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. See also Micah 5:2 for His "goings forth are from everlasting" Same as Psalm 90:2.

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.”

Acts 5:3-4 The Holy Spirit is God. Also omniscient. 1Cor. 2:11

3 Personages (if you will) are called God. How many true Gods did Jesus believe in?

Who created the heavens and the Earth?

1 Corinthians 8:6 The Father did.

John 1:3 Jesus did.

Gen 1:2 and Job 26:13 The Holy Spirit did.

Gen.1:1 God did. Again, how many Creators did Jesus believe in?

Isaiah 44:24 The Lord did it alone.

Again who raised Jesus from the dead? see above

There are many more.

Paul didn't write 1st and 2nd Timothy. They are pseudepigraphical.

The Book of Matthew is anonymous, but it certainly wasn't written by an eyewitness to the events it describes.

John was written by multiple authors ca 95-120 CE.

Snow, this is nonsense.

1 and 2 Timothy claims to be written by Paul with a message of grace, mercy and peace from God. If this is not true as you say then they are written by a false witness and should be treated as such. What does the Bible say about bearing false witness?

Mathew and John have been widely accepted by the early church as the authors of their gospels. Do you think they are legitimate? What is the LDS position on the New Testament?

[Snow]

Like I posted before; ask any one of them, who raised Jesus from the dead?

Luke says God did it. Acts 4:10 How many Gods did it, 1 or 3? My answer is 1.

Paul says the Father did it. Galations 1:1

John says the Son raised Himself from the dead. John 2:19-21

Paul says the Holy Spirit did it. Romans 8:11.

Are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit 1 person or 3? My answer is 3.

So Who did it? Answer; The Triune God did it.

2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

So what.

This conversation is quickly becoming uninteresting. As I said before, the issue is not whether or not you can pick out individual verses author by different people and interpret them in such a way to support parts of the Trinity.

I asked specifically, and this is the last time, for a demonstration of a single apostle (the original claim) that shows an understanding of the Trinity. I would settle for anyone from the Bible who shows an understanding.

3 persons

1 God

Co-eternal

Co-equal

Consubstantial.

That you don't do that and instead post other things instead tells me that you know you can't. Don't feel bad, in the 1870 years since the bible was written no one has ever been able to show it:

"On the other hand, we must honestly admit that the doctrine of the Trinity did not form part of the early Christian-New Testament-message. Certainly, it cannot be denied that not only the word "Trinity", but even the explicit idea of the Trinity is absent from the apostolic witness of the faith. The doctrine of the Trinity itself, however, is not a Biblical Doctrine...}" Emil Brunner, The Christian Doctrine of God (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1949), 205, 236.

"In order to argue successfully for the unconditionally and permanence of the ancient Trinitarian Creeds, it is necessary to make a distinction between doctrines, on the one hand, and on the terminology and conceptuality in which they were formulated on the other... Some of the crucial concepts employed by these creeds, such as "substance", "person", and "in two natures" are post-biblical novelties. If these particular notions are essential, the doctrines of these creeds are clearly conditional, dependent on the late Hellenistic milieu." George A. Lindbeck, The Nature of Doctrine (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1984), 92.I agree and the Nicene, and I would also say the Athanasian, Creed represents the cumulative teachings of the Bible.

"It is clearly impossible (if one accepts historical evidence as relevant at all) to escape the claim that the later formulations of dogma cannot be reached by a process of deductive logic from the original propositions and must contain an element of novelty...The emergence of the full trinitarian doctrine was not possible without significant modification of previously accepted ideas" Maurice Wiles, The Making of Christian Doctrine (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1967), 4, 144.Ok :)

"The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the 4th and 5th centuries is not to be found in the New Testament." P Achtemeier, editor, Harper's Bible Dictionary (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1985), 1099.

Here are but a few.

Please bear with my questions.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. Here the Father is the only true God.

1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Here Jesus is the true God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Does Jesus believe He is God?

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. See also Micah 5:2 for His "goings forth are from everlasting" Same as Psalm 90:2.

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.”

Acts 5:3-4 The Holy Spirit is God. Also omniscient. 1Cor. 2:11

3 Personages (if you will) are called God. How many true Gods did Jesus believe in?

Who created the heavens and the Earth?

1 Corinthians 8:6 The Father did.

John 1:3 Jesus did.

Gen 1:2 and Job 26:13 The Holy Spirit did.

Gen.1:1 God did. Again, how many Creators did Jesus believe in?

Isaiah 44:24 The Lord did it alone.

Again who raised Jesus from the dead? see above

There are many more.

That's a joke right.

I asked you to demonstrate that Jesus understood the Trinity. You went to a lot of trouble just to prove that you couldn't.

Snow, this is nonsense.

1 and 2 Timothy claims to be written by Paul with a message of grace, mercy and peace from God. If this is not true as you say then they are written by a false witness and should be treated as such. What does the Bible say about bearing false witness?

The consensus scholarly view is that 1st and 2nd Timothy are pseudepigraphical. No or practically no credible scholar thinks otherwise, certainly no scholar that has not first reached their conclusion ideologically, before considering the evidence.

Matthew and John have been widely accepted by the early church as the authors of their gospels.

Matthew's Gospel was anonymous. No one knows who wrote it. Matthew was a guess by Papias decades and decades after Matthew would have been long dead. It was a bad guess. It is obvious that Papias wasn't much familiar with the Gospel. He thought that Matthew was a collection of sayings of Jesus and that it was written in Hebrew. That doesn't fit at all with the reality. It was much, much more than a collection of sayings and it was written in Greek, not Hebrew.

John would have been over 120 years old by the time that the Gospel of John was completed.

While there are disagreements over Gospel authorship, the majority view does not favor the traditional guesses.

Perhaps you have some evidence that the experts do not. If so, what is it?

Do you think they are legitimate?

I think they are legitimate scripture - I just don't let my faith obscure the facts.

What is the LDS position on the New Testament?

That it is scripture.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Snow