Snow: What If We Were Both Wrong?

[Jason]

If you can't rely on the NT, then what makes you think you can rely on the OT?  If Paul was a fraud, then why can't Moses be one as well? 

I think Moses was a fraud. So what?

Don't you see where your heading?

Yep. Truth hurts, but I won't settle for less...

  How will you be able to rely on anything for truth regarding the Gospel, save science and Man....?

The "gospel" is a Christian term that seems really foreign anymore. I have ceased believing in any saving rituals or duties. God either will save us, or he and/or she won't.

[Setheus]

Some of you guys see a church changing and letting you down. I see myself changing and letting Heaven down.

I sympathise with your plight. I would say Give the LDS church a chance. Have faith in the gospel. But who am I kidding right? You're not into that since it requires faith.

Some people fall because God doesnt show them enough. I've fallen because He showed me too much!

I hate this place. He pourd all of his love and grace into this...killing field. Well, do you see it? Do you see it anywhere?

[Jason]

Setheus,

I believe in God. That requires faith.

It's mankind I don't have faith in.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Jason@Jul 23 2005, 04:40 PM

Setheus,

I believe in God. That requires faith.

It's mankind I don't have faith in.

Bingo!

[Setheus]

You must not have read my post. Clearly I believe in God. And I love him as much as He loves me. Take that to mean what you will.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jul 23 2005, 03:59 PM

Some people fall because God doesnt show them enough.  I've fallen because He showed me too much!

I hate this place. He pourd all of his love and grace into this...killing field.  Well, do you see it? Do you see it anywhere?

Setheus~

Sorry, but I just couldn't leave this one alone.... I see the pain...and can't walk away from it. (I know it's off topic, but this has been nagging at me to say something....and when I get that feeling... I have to act.)

Wars have been fought through out history, battles for different reasons, or for the same ideals and goals.

Each soldier who goes into battle or conflict knows there is a possibility of killing someone or being killed by someone else. God has reasons only He knows of when it comes to war, and the killings in war. Reasons that we, as mortals, may never know.

Have you ever thought of it this way.....you may have have disposed of someone who would have hurt or killed a hundred innocent people...without him batting an eyelash. I think more of you because it does bother you. ... means you are human.

I have tremendous respect for those who have high pressure jobs such as the military, the medical profession, law enforcement, firefighters....etc.... people who have to make choices based on the circumstances. Choices they may not want to make, but their job requires it of them.

[Setheus]

Last week I was in a convoy and as we were driving along a girl about 12 was standing on the side of the street watching as we passed. Then, right as I was looking at her and giving her a smile she pulled a weapon out from under her dress and opened fire on us. She must have sprayed 50 rounds at the vehicle I was in from no more than 20ft away. After a second or two she dropped the weapon which turned out to be a very old AK-47, and ran away down some side streets. Another in my squad picked up the weapon and my vehicle and another gave chase to the little girl. We chased her for several blocks *had trouble due to rubble in the road and the fact that she had several seconds head start*. We saw her enter a house and we sat in the NW corner and the ohter veh took the SE corner so we could see all four sides in case she tried to slip out. Once help arrived we entered the house using dynamic entery tactics and discovered the little girl and three men. We arrested the men and detained the girl. Through a translator we discovered from the girl that the men were her dad, uncle, and brother. They had threatened to rape and beat her if she did not do what she had done and attack the us troops. She attacked us out of fear for her own safety. THAT is the kind of evil we are dealing with over here. Do you think SHE would have killed hundreds without blinking an eye? Does she fit into that theory?

I'll tell you the darkest part of this is that if I had not been so busy ducking her bullettes I would have blown her away in a heart beat. And perhaps THAT is the only real evil?

[pushka]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jul 22 2005, 07:00 AM

God gave the restoration a promise that this would be the last time the church was restored before He came in glory, so I was really looking forward to the imminent return of Zion. Just as I was praying and pleading with God to tell me how He could let all this happen, someone posted a scripture on another board. That scripture was the one where Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against the church (Matthew 16:18).

I was brought up short upon seeing this. Here were two nearly identical promises. One to the early Christian church, one to the restoration. And they couldn't both be true. And if you follow them out to their logical conclusion, the only way either of them could be true is to believe that the one given to the early church is true. And if it is true, then there was never a need for a restoration because the church never left the earth.

It was something that hit me so suddenly that I didn't know it was coming. Literally, one day I believed in the restoration and said I did no want to leave it, and the next I didn't. That happened on June 27th. (Anyone see a significance in the date?)

Jenda, thanks for your post explaining your current state of beliefs. It was very interesting. I may be being a little 'dim' here, but I just wondered about your references to the Early Christian Church, the Restoration and the scripture, (Matthew 16 : 18).

Are you saying that you believe that the Church Christ established on earth is still around and is not in a state of apostacy? Therefore, can you tell me the name of this Church, if you believe it has one? (I'm sort of relating this to Jason's 'past' theories regarding the Orthodox Church being the one true Church that Christ established on earth, and wondering if you feel the same way as he did about this, or whether you think another true church still exists?) And, are you confirming that you do not believe in Joseph Smith and his 'restoration' of the Gospel whether that be according to the LDS, RLDS or CoC versions?

I apologise if you have already answered these questions, I just want to make it clear in my own mind that I have understood your responses up to now. I think it is very brave of you to write about your experiences on these matters.

[huma17]

Originally posted by Jason@Jul 23 2005, 03:51 PM

I think Moses was a fraud. So what?

Then why are you planning to research his work - OT?

Yep.  Truth hurts, but I won't settle for less...

Understand. However, by the way you are attempting to seek truth, you can only find the answer through Man, which you don't trust anyway...a bit of a catch-22...

God either will save us, or he and/or she won't.

G-d won't if you are expected to obey what has been given and don't.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by pushka+Jul 25 2005, 07:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (pushka @ Jul 25 2005, 07:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jul 22 2005, 07:00 AM

God gave the restoration a promise that this would be the last time the church was restored before He came in glory, so I was really looking forward to the imminent return of Zion.  Just as I was praying and pleading with God to tell me how He could let all this happen, someone posted a scripture on another board.  That scripture was the one where Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against the church (Matthew 16:18).

I was brought up short upon seeing this.  Here were two nearly identical promises.  One to the early Christian church, one to the restoration.  And they couldn't both be true.  And if you follow them out to their logical conclusion, the only way either of them could be true is to believe that the one given to the early church is true.  And if it is true, then there was never a need for a restoration because the church never left the earth.

It was something that hit me so suddenly that I didn't know it was coming.  Literally, one day I believed in the restoration and said I did no want to leave it, and the next I didn't.  That happened on June 27th.  (Anyone see a significance in the date?)

Jenda, thanks for your post explaining your current state of beliefs. It was very interesting. I may be being a little 'dim' here, but I just wondered about your references to the Early Christian Church, the Restoration and the scripture, (Matthew 16 : 18).

Are you saying that you believe that the Church Christ established on earth is still around and is not in a state of apostacy? Therefore, can you tell me the name of this Church, if you believe it has one? (I'm sort of relating this to Jason's 'past' theories regarding the Orthodox Church being the one true Church that Christ established on earth, and wondering if you feel the same way as he did about this, or whether you think another true church still exists?) And, are you confirming that you do not believe in Joseph Smith and his 'restoration' of the Gospel whether that be according to the LDS, RLDS or CoC versions?

I apologise if you have already answered these questions, I just want to make it clear in my own mind that I have understood your responses up to now. I think it is very brave of you to write about your experiences on these matters.

I don't believe "the church" to be an organization with a head (like the pope or a prophet), I do believe it to be the body of believers.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Matthew 28:19-20

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

I am confirming that I no longer believe that the restoration is true (in any of it's incarnations).

[pushka]

Thank you Jenda! :)

[huma17]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jul 25 2005, 09:01 PM

I am confirming that I no longer believe that the restoration is true (in any of it's incarnations).

If I may ask, when did this come about, and why?

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jul 25 2005, 06:20 PM

She attacked us out of fear for her own safety. THAT is the kind of evil we are dealing with over here. Do you think SHE would have killed hundreds without blinking an eye? Does she fit into that theory?

I'll tell you the darkest part of this is that if I had not been so busy ducking her bullettes I would have blown her away in a heart beat. And perhaps THAT is the only real evil?

I am sorry that I didn't consider men using children to do their dirty work... and am appalled at the fear tactics they would use on a child. I am speechless at the moment, my theory shredded....OK?

Please refer to my last sentence....people who have to make choices based on the circumstances. Choices they may not want to make, but their job requires it of them.

Ok....I've said my peace.. I'll just be quiet now.

[Jason]

Then why are you planning to research his work - OT?

Newsflash.........Moses didn't write the Old Testament. He probably didn't write anything of the "five books of Moses".

Understand. However, by the way you are attempting to seek truth, you can only find the answer through Man, which you don't trust anyway...a bit of a catch-22...

Not necessarily. Im not trusting man 100% either. But im not going to ignore the gifts of reason just so I can tow-the-line.

G-d won't if you are expected to obey what has been given and don't.

Interesting you should say that. I had a Jehovah's Witness acquaintance drop of the July 15th edition of The Watchtower. On page 4 it has an article about "True Teachings That Please God".

Here's a quote:

For earth's inhabitants to know what teachings are true and pleasing to God, he must reveal his thoughts to humans.

Not sure I agree exactly, but I can go along with this...

  He must make that revelation available to all.

I agree to this 100%

  How else could mankind know what God approves of in the way of doctrine, worship, and conduct?  Has God supplied such information?  If so, in what form?  Can any human with a life span of a few decades personally reach all mankind and serve as a channel of communication from God?  No.  But a permanent written record can.  Therefore, would it not be appropriate that the revelation from God be made available in the form of a book?  One of the ancient books claiming inspiration by God is the Bible. . . . Let us take a closer look at the Bible and see if it is the source of true teachings.

If I was God, this would NOT be my plan to enlighten mankind.

First of all, not everyone can read.

Secondly, not everyone has access to the Bible, in spite of it's mass publication and wide circulation.

Third, if God's "revelation" to mankind is to be available to all, then it must be available to all, to every human born since time began.

It has to be so obvious, that one would have to deny reality to deny God's "revelation".

Frankly, If prophets and scriptures are God's plan for enlightenment of mankind, then God's not too bright.

On the other hand, Im beginning to think that perhaps God has revealed himself to the world. That God's will is understood in gaining the understanding of mans relationship with God's living revelation: Nature.

Im also beginning to accept that just as we did nothing to deserve to exist on this earth, we will do nothing to deserve to exist beyond this life. No ritual, no dogmatic belief, no man-claimed authority will save us.

If God's whole plan was based on prophets and scriptures, then the great injustice committed against the rest of mankind is inexcusable!

While some will say that God's grace will save those who lived without God, or Mormons will teach that they'll be taught in the spirit world and ritually cleansed in a temple somewhere, that still insinuates that these billions of people who never knew Mormonism or Christianity failed to know God.

In spite of the elitism implied here, That just makes me sick.

I believe that my pet cat, Shadow, is in heaven. Shadow did nothing worthy of being born, and he died without baptism, rituals, or so-called authority. But there he is, dwelling with the divine creator.

Why would we be any different than the rest of God's creation?

[begood2]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Jul 25 2005, 11:55 AM

I have tremendous respect for those who have high pressure jobs such as the military, the  medical profession, law enforcement, firefighters....etc.... people who have to make choices based on the circumstances. Choices they may not want to make, but their job requires it of them. 

Setheus,

I agree with Lindy. The service men and women have my deepest respect and prayers. this war on terrorism is going to be very difficult to win.

I think God that no one in your group got hurt by this girl. Even though this girl was being used as a pawn by these depraved adult male relatives it would not have been morally wrong to have shot her, because the safety of you and your men is a priority.

Where I work, I have talked to some of the older workers, that were veterans from the Vietnam war, and they told me that the Viet Cong used children as human bombs to kill US solders then as well.

I just hope that the American public has the resolve to stay in the fight until victory has been achieved.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by huma17+Jul 25 2005, 08:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (huma17 @ Jul 25 2005, 08:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jul 25 2005, 09:01 PM

I am confirming that I no longer believe that the restoration is true (in any of it's incarnations).

If I may ask, when did this come about, and why?

I posted all about it in an earlier post in this thread.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Jason@Jul 20 2005, 10:59 AM

  What if we're .... so biased in our belief systems, that we're not really seeing the big picture?(or maybe it's a smaller picture, I don't know.)

What if it's true that the texts of the NT are corrupted? 

Jason~

If we based our lives on "what ifs" I would think it would nearly drive us all insane. We could analyze and scrutinize everything looking for another angle. Sometimes I think we just have to rely on what we believe is true for us as individuals, and even then it seems that there are times that we have to hold on to that belief by the tips of our fingernails, knowing that we mustn't let go completely.

I don't put my trust in mankind either.... I do however, put my trust in certain individuals, as I put my trust in God. I really don't think that ANY human being is going to know all the answers, no matter how hard they search. Quest or no quest....God will reveal in His own time to those who seek the truth.

I just learned to change the "what ifs" to "so whats" (most of the time ) and stopped trying to fight myself to try to find the logic, or analyze every little thing that bothered me.

----------------

Jenda I' sorry to hear your feelings have changed so drastically, hope things come together for you soon.

BG2~ Thanks for agreeing with me.....

Setheus~ Just be safe

[Jason]

Originally posted by lindy

If we based our lives on "what ifs" I would think it would nearly drive us all insane. We could analyze and scrutinize everything looking for another angle. Sometimes I think we just have to rely on what we believe is true for us as individuals, and even then it seems that there are times that we have to hold on to that belief by the tips of our fingernails, knowing that we mustn't let go completely.

I don't put my trust in mankind either.... I do however, put my trust in certain individuals, as I put my trust in God. I really don't think that ANY human being is going to know all the answers, no matter how hard they search. Quest or no quest....God will reveal in His own time to those who seek the truth.

I just learned to change the "what ifs" to "so whats" (most of the time  ) and stopped trying to fight myself to try to find the logic, or analyze every little thing that bothered me.

I can see your point, but I do disagree. Not only am I currently considering that the entire NT is bunk, but that the whole concept of a "sacred text," or "rituals," or "authority," violates God's love for humanity.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Jason@Jul 26 2005, 01:20 PM

I can see your point, but I do disagree. Not only am I currently considering that the entire NT is bunk, but that the whole concept of a "sacred text," or "rituals," or "authority," violates God's love for humanity.

Hey Jason, what happened that's making you re-examine biblical history?

M.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Jason@Jul 26 2005, 01:20 PM

I can see your point, but I do disagree. Not only am I currently considering that the entire NT is bunk, but that the whole concept of a "sacred text," or "rituals," or "authority," violates God's love for humanity.

Is this part of the E Orthodox religion? Because of the timeline the NT was written in?

Jason..... I am really concerned that you are being led farther and farther away from the truth as you knew it.

As for the concept of a "sacred text" or "rituals" those are things that can destroy you from the inside if you let it. It's sounding like there is a darker force working on you for some reason....throwing doubts and confusion to cloud the confidence and strong faith you had.

[Jason]

Hey Jason, what happened that's making you re-examine biblical history?

M.

Well, it boils down to the idea that Yahweh was not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

That Melchizedek, as a Jebusite, was actually a "Pagan" priest.

That Ba'al was one of the 70 sons of El, as was Yahweh.

That Asherah was El's wife, and later the consort of Ba'al and Yahweh.

Things like that.

Oh, and problems with early Christian church history. Like Deaconesses who not only baptised, but blessed and passed the Eucharist (aka Sacrament), received confessions, etc.

That the teachings of Paul are both contradictory in and of themselves, and that they are not necessarily complimentary with the words of Jesus.

That I don't believe Jesus was/is God. Or the Son of God, or anything of the sort.

Things like that. I've got a good post on another site I may have to copy over and let you read.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Jason@Jul 26 2005, 08:56 PM

That I don't believe Jesus was/is God. Or the Son of God, or anything of the sort.

Jason~

You just made me cry

[Jason]

Don't be sad, lindy. Im not. I still believe in God. I still believe in Jesus. I just don't believe that Jesus is either God, or the "son" of God.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Jason@Jul 27 2005, 06:41 PM

Don't be sad, lindy. Im not. I still believe in God. I still believe in Jesus. I just don't believe that Jesus is either God, or the "son" of God.

I just find that very disturbing Jason.... you have always been an icon of faith.

[Jason]

You're forgetting my dear that belief in God requires great faith.

I am at peace with God and my soul. What more could you ask for?