Snow: What If We Were Both Wrong?


Jason
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Lindy,

This is the post I made on another board responding to the following comment:

  Lol, it's hardly established fact that worship of I AM arose out of Baal and Asherah worship. What evidence do you have to suggest it aside from their names both meaning "Lord"? The practices of both religions were radically different, including in ancient times, as even a cursory reading of 1 Kings will show. 

My reply is as follows:

-------------

Certainly the religions of Yahweh and Ba'al developed differently, but they both derived from the same source. Im sure you've heard of the four "writers" of the "Five books of Moses." The various interpolations of the Yahwist priests from the Eloist priestly documents clearly illustrates some major re-writing. In the beginning, the Elohim created the heavens and the earth. Chapter two has Yahweh-El doing the creating. Someone was glossing over the polytheistic source materials of creation. Modern monotheists will claim that "Elohim" is a plural majestic form of a single deity. That makes about as much sense as the Trinity with it's three persons of one essense.

We also know that El had sons. Ba'al and Yahweh were two of the potentially 70 sons of El. One un-edited remnant in your Old Testament is found in Genesis 32:7-12

  Remember the days of old, consider the years long past; ask your father, and he will inform you; your elders, and they will tell you. When El-Elyon apportioned the nations, when he divided mankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods; Yahweh's own portion was his people, Jacob his alloted share. He sustained him in a desert land, in a howling wilderness waste; he shielded him as the apple of his eye. As an eagle stirs up its nest, and hovers over its young; as it spreads its wings, takes them up, and bears them aloft in its pinions, Yahweh alone guided him; no foreign god was with him. (Deuteronomy 32:7-12.) 

Compare this with Deut 4:19-20, where Yahweh tells his people not to worship the "host of heaven" (aka the other gods). While El is not a jealous divinity, Yahweh was very jealous, and ultimately finds a way to eliminate the other gods entirely.

In Psalm 82, El condemns his sons (apparently except Yahweh) to mortality.

  El has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment....I say, 'You are gods, children of El-Elyon, all of you; nevertheless, you shall die like mortals, and fall like any prince.

In Psalm 29, Yahweh overthrows the other gods, becoming the god of the waters, and forests as well as his initial dominion over the desert wilderness. The other sons are to worship and glorify him!

  Ascribe to Yahweh, O sons of El, ascribe to Yahweh glory and strength. Ascribe to Yahweh the glory of his name; worship Yahweh in holy splendor. The Voice of Yahweh is over the waters; the El of glory thunders, Yahweh over mighty waters. The voice of Yahweh is powerful...etc, etc. (see also Psalm 89:6,7; Exodus 15:11, Psalm 47, 48, 96, 97, Psalm 93:1, & 99:1) 

According to the Elephantine papryi, Asherah was worshipped as Yahweh's consort until the 3rd century BCE. Some even speculate that a temple to Asherah was built next to Yahweh's temple in Jerusalem.

What many "Christians" fail to realize is that the Canaanites worshipped Yahweh the same as the Israelites. But the Canaanites placed Yahweh as one of the sons of El, not as El himself! (see Ugaritic texts, especially KTU 1.1 IV p.4)

Your glossed over bibles typically edit out all references to the other gods, referring to them instead as "hosts of heaven" or "morning stars" or "angels". (See Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7.)

El was the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Yahweh was a strange god to the people of Israel. That explains why Pharoah, whose people had ruled over the Hebrews in Egypt for hundreds of years, expressed surprise at Moses' assertion that Yahweh was the god of the Hebrews. Do you really believe that the Egyptians were ignorant of the beliefs of their slaves? They knew that the Hebrews worshipped El. That's why they were dumbfounded when Moses said that Yahweh was now god of the Hebrews.

That's why when Moses tells the Hebrews that Yahweh will deliver them and be their god, they didn't listen to Moses. (Exodus 6:7,9.)

That's why Joshua has to tell the Hebrews to worship Yahweh, and put away EL and his other sons (Josh. 24:14. see also Hosea 12:10)

There are lots of other things I could include here, parallels between the ancient rock gods and El are even more striking. But this will have to do for now, I have daddy duties to take care of.

---------------

That was the post as I wrote it two days ago. If anyone's interested, I've got some more stuff along these lines.

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Jason~ Interesting read, but a little too much for me right now... All I can do iwish you good luck in what you are looking for. We all have to be happy with what we find as truth in our lives. <_<

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Originally posted by Jason@Jul 27 2005, 05:41 PM

Don't be sad, lindy. Im not. I still believe in God. I still believe in Jesus. I just don't believe that Jesus is either God, or the "son" of God.

Jason,

Don't get offended - really - I don't mean to offend - and personally I find you quite interesting and thoughtful and am much pleased that you are sharing your spiritual journey with us - and in a way admire you for it... okay, do you understand that my intentions toward you are good? I hope so but tell me please, what's the deal? What's driving all this? In short order you have moved fairly quickly and fairly radically from one frame of mind to another, then another and now this.

Tell me what's going on.

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Originally posted by lindy9556@Jul 28 2005, 12:32 AM

Jason~ Interesting read, but a little too much for me right now... All I can do iwish you good luck in what you are looking for.  We all have to be happy with what we find as truth in our lives.  <_<

Thank you.

Of course, I extend the same wishes.

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Originally posted by Snow+Jul 28 2005, 08:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Jul 28 2005, 08:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jason@Jul 27 2005, 05:41 PM

Don't be sad, lindy.  Im not.  I still believe in God.  I still believe in Jesus.  I just don't believe that Jesus is either God, or the "son" of God.

Jason,

Don't get offended - really - I don't mean to offend - and personally I find you quite interesting and thoughtful and am much pleased that you are sharing your spiritual journey with us - and in a way admire you for it... okay, do you understand that my intentions toward you are good? I hope so but tell me please, what's the deal? What's driving all this? In short order you have moved fairly quickly and fairly radically from one frame of mind to another, then another and now this.

Tell me what's going on.

Honestly, it's being honest with myself.

Why should I have to "try" to believe in something that seems so obviously false? Just as I left Mormonism, I'm leaving Eastern Orthodoxy behind because the phoney flags went up everywhere I looked.

Believe it or not, it's actually kind of fun. I purposely submerge myself in all things pertaining to the religion, become an apologist for it's dogmas, and put myself in as deep an understanding as I possibly can. I submit that this is the only way for someone to trully find out if a religion is true or false.

I ultimately believe that Christianity as it is today in all it's forms is completely false.

Looks like I finally get that chance to investigate the eastern religions like I've always wanted too.

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Originally posted by Jason@Jul 28 2005, 10:07 AM

Honestly, it's being honest with myself. 

Why should I have to "try" to believe in something that seems so obviously false?....

Hey Jason,

It appears that you have come to these conclusions rather quickly. I hope you're not jumping the gun in regards to this new found information. I'm hoping in your process of study you're not confusing the material and interpreting your findings in a haphazard way.

Here's a link that seems to be related with what you have mentioned:

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2053

Have a read and let us know what new stuff you've been reading that has changed your mind so drastically.

Take care!

M.

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It appears that you have come to these conclusions rather quickly. I hope you're not jumping the gun in regards to this new found information. I'm hoping in your process of study you're not confusing the material and interpreting your findings in a haphazard way.

Actually, Im combining the research of the past few months, with my feelings from 2 years ago before I decided to give Christianity a try again.

So I wouldn't call it "quickly". Let's just say that Im puting my thesis on the web for scrutiny, just as any good scientist would. ;)

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I'm finding the details of your spiritual journey very interesting Jason...I understand entirely how you can become engrossed in the search for the 'right answers' and find yourself walking many paths during that search...good luck and enjoy yourself along the way! :)

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Originally posted by Jason@Jul 26 2005, 01:34 AM

Newsflash.........Moses didn't write the Old Testament. He probably didn't write anything of the "five books of Moses".

Yes, Moses didn't write the OT - that's not exactly what I was meaning. I also understand the debate as to whether or not he actually penned the Torah, but it is stated within, that he did write part of it.

Third, if God's "revelation" to mankind is to be available to all, then it must be available to all, to every human born since time began.

The key word here, is make 'available' - which he has. He cannot force Mankind to hear, seek, or accept it. ALL, I repeat ALL, will have the opportunity to accept that message, period. That, is a merciful G-d.

It has to be so obvious, that one would have to deny reality to deny God's "revelation".

So, it would have to be more obvious than Christ rising from the dead, raising the dead, Moses parting the sea, etc., because, those 'obvious' things were either quickly forgotten, or not believed at all. Do you really think that there is something that everyone in this world is going to accept regarding religion? The Lord could go from house to house, hut to hut, box to box giving them the exact truth, but do you honestly believe that they would all accept and/or believe? The Lord is wise enough to know that Men are fools, weak, and easy to sway. The way he has established for truth is the best way.

Frankly, If prophets and scriptures are God's plan for enlightenment of mankind, then God's not too bright.

Why, because he doesn't force everyone to believe? He's not Lucifer, you know. The whole point is to see whether we are worthy and obedient enough to return to him. Do you want your children living in your house when they are adults, when they do not listen to anything you say, disrespect you, your home, your wife, and your other children, if they don't love you, trash your home, and do not follow any of your rules? I know you will still love them, but I doubt you would want them in you house. The Lord allows us to live our lives, so the WE will know how we are - he already knows. If the Lord tells us we are not pure in heart, we are going to ask him how he can say such a thing, but, after our mortal probation, we will know that that would be true - if that is the case - and we could not argue.

On the other hand, Im beginning to think that perhaps God has revealed himself to the world.  That God's will is understood in gaining the understanding of mans relationship with God's living revelation: Nature.

Yet nature is very subjective, and can be interpreted in many different ways - that creates even more confusion.

Im also beginning to accept that just as we did nothing to deserve to exist on this earth, we will do nothing to deserve to exist beyond this life.  No ritual, no dogmatic belief, no man-claimed authority will save us.

How can you state this as knowledge, and with authority?

If God's whole plan was based on prophets and scriptures, then the great injustice committed against the rest of mankind is inexcusable!

??? I don't understand how you can state this, because the Plan of Salvation is the way ALL Mankind can receive Eternal Life.

...that still insinuates that these billions of people who never knew Mormonism or Christianity failed to know God.

How can you say that? I believe those people DID know Him, but didn't necessarily have to opportunity to learn and accept the full truth in this life.

I believe that my pet cat, Shadow, is in heaven.  Shadow did nothing worthy of being born, and he died without baptism, rituals, or so-called authority.  But there he is, dwelling with the divine creator.

Ah, yes, but Shadow wasn't put on this earth to be tested. I, too, believe he is there, but that is because he had a different mission for his time here.
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Jason -

I'm not going to try to convince you to not search as you have and will continue to do. I just want to say that you will never find the truth that way. I see the answers of Man in regards to the Lord leading your life right now, and I wish that wasn't the case for you. There is so much junk out there that blocks the path to the truth, and you are trying to sort through it all, even though it is impossible to come to the end doing that. I think you're going to settle on something less, because you couldn't answer every little thing that came across your way. Well, I hate to break it to you, but none of us can do that, and some things simply require faith. You CANNOT find all the answers in this life, and trying to do so will only make you go around in circles. Your path seems like a hopeless one to me, but I honestly hope you can find peace of mind.

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Originally posted by Jason@Aug 1 2005, 10:33 AM

huma17,

I appreciate your comments. I could probably spend a good deal of time attempting to refute what you've said, but I honestly don't see why.

Let's focus instead on what things we can share alike, and not at our differences. Eh?

:)
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Originally posted by Jason@ Jul 26 2005, 01:34 AM

- from the July 15th edition of The Watchtower - How else could mankind know what God approves of in the way of doctrine, worship, and conduct?  Has God supplied such information?  If so, in what form?  Can any human with a life span of a few decades personally reach all mankind and serve as a channel of communication from God?  No.  But a permanent written record can.  Therefore, would it not be appropriate that the revelation from God be made available in the form of a book?  One of the ancient books claiming inspiration by God is the Bible. . . . Let us take a closer look at the Bible and see if it is the source of true teachings.

If I was God, this would NOT be my plan to enlighten mankind.

First of all, not everyone can read.

Secondly, not everyone has access to the Bible, in spite of its mass publication and wide circulation.

Third, if God's "revelation" to mankind is to be available to all, then it must be available to all, to every human born since time began.

It has to be so obvious, that one would have to deny reality to deny God's "revelation".

Frankly, If prophets and scriptures are God's plan for enlightenment of mankind, then God's not too bright.

Jason, I agree that there must be a better way to know God than to merely rely upon “scripture”, and I testify that the better way to obtain knowledge of God is through Faith, which truly is available to everyone who desires to seek knowledge about God by going to the source of that knowledge. And even though I’ve told you that before, I’ll say it again just in case you might understand what I am trying to say this time.

And that’s it. You can only know God and have a relationship with Him through Faith.

And just in case it might help to explain what Faith is, again, I’ll do that one more time too.

According to most people who read or write dictionaries, faith is simply another word for an assurance or a conviction, and to have faith is to have an assurance or conviction that something is true, but since it is possible to have faith in things that are not true just as it is possible to have faith in things that are true, the only way we can be truly assured that a belief concerning God is true is by receiving an assurance from God to assure us about what is true, otherwise we are relying on our own assurance or the assurances of people other than God, who may be mistaken.

And btw, I felt prompted to see how things are going on this website and upon reading this thread I felt prompted to say something which I truly hope will help YOU, Jason, because Yes, I do care. But don’t expect to learn the truth about God from me because I don’t expect to be talking to you anymore… unless God in His wisdom sees fit to instruct me to speak to you again in the future.

And Dawn, the same thing I said to Jason goes for you too, but since you already knew that I will simply say that I hope you and I and everyone else will come to truly know God and be one with Him so that we can all enjoy the blessings that He yearns to share with all of us.

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Originally posted by shanstress70@Aug 5 2005, 06:55 PM

To Jenda,

I've just been catching up here and read your posts. Maybe I'm not paying close enough attention, but I can't figure out what church you belong to now. Would you mind telling me? Just curious.

I hope you're doing well!

Shannon

At present, I don't belong to any church. I have gone to a local non-denominational church a couple of times, but since I only left the RLDS church a month ago, I don't really have any set theology I believe in at present, and I just want to go hear the Bible taught without all the doctrinal "stuff".
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Originally posted by Jenda@ Aug 5 2005, 08:16 PM

…I just want to go hear the Bible taught without all the doctrinal "stuff".

It’s impossible to “teach the Bible” without teaching doctrine, so I think you meant you simply want to go someplace where all they do is “read” the Bible. But what would be the point of going somewhere where all they do is “read” the Bible when you can read the Bible all by yourself at home? Are you thinking you might want to associate with a group of people who read the Bible when they get together? And in such associations do you imagine you would want to “talk” to those people who are members of that church, perhaps talking about what you heard while someone “read” the Bible? And by so doing wouldn’t you and they be spreading doctrine concerning the Bible?

If you want to associate with a group of people for religious purposes, you have 3 choices:

1) Associate with people with the same religious beliefs you have,

2) Associate with people that can teach you more than you currently accept, or

3) Form your own church that only associates with people who will conform to your beliefs.

And btw, even though it does make me a little sad to hear that you have lost your testimony concerning certain things that you once believed were true, I am hopeful that you are simply taking another step in your journey toward a perfect knowledge of the truth. But of course, each step is always up to you because God is always there for you.

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Originally posted by Jenda+Aug 5 2005, 09:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Aug 5 2005, 09:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Aug 5 2005, 06:55 PM

To Jenda,

I've just been catching up here and read your posts.  Maybe I'm not paying close enough attention, but I can't figure out what church you belong to now.  Would you mind telling me?  Just curious.

I hope you're doing well!

Shannon

At present, I don't belong to any church. I have gone to a local non-denominational church a couple of times, but since I only left the RLDS church a month ago, I don't really have any set theology I believe in at present, and I just want to go hear the Bible taught without all the doctrinal "stuff".

Jenda,

You should realize that the Bible was written with "all the doctrinal stuff" in mind. It is doctrine. That's the problem.

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Originally posted by Jason+Aug 11 2005, 08:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jason @ Aug 11 2005, 08:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Jenda@Aug 5 2005, 09:16 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Aug 5 2005, 06:55 PM

To Jenda,

I've just been catching up here and read your posts.  Maybe I'm not paying close enough attention, but I can't figure out what church you belong to now.  Would you mind telling me?  Just curious.

I hope you're doing well!

Shannon

At present, I don't belong to any church. I have gone to a local non-denominational church a couple of times, but since I only left the RLDS church a month ago, I don't really have any set theology I believe in at present, and I just want to go hear the Bible taught without all the doctrinal "stuff".

Jenda,

You should realize that the Bible was written with "all the doctrinal stuff" in mind. It is doctrine. That's the problem.

I technically agree with what you said, Jason, but there are levels of doctrinal "stuff", and I was talking about the doctrinal "stuff" that was added to the already doctrinalized "stuff". :D

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Originally posted by Ray+Aug 8 2005, 09:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Aug 8 2005, 09:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@ Aug 5 2005, 08:16 PM

…I just want to go hear the Bible taught without all the doctrinal "stuff".

It’s impossible to “teach the Bible” without teaching doctrine, so I think you meant you simply want to go someplace where all they do is “read” the Bible. But what would be the point of going somewhere where all they do is “read” the Bible when you can read the Bible all by yourself at home? Are you thinking you might want to associate with a group of people who read the Bible when they get together? And in such associations do you imagine you would want to “talk” to those people who are members of that church, perhaps talking about what you heard while someone “read” the Bible? And by so doing wouldn’t you and they be spreading doctrine concerning the Bible?

If you want to associate with a group of people for religious purposes, you have 3 choices:

1) Associate with people with the same religious beliefs you have,

2) Associate with people that can teach you more than you currently accept, or

3) Form your own church that only associates with people who will conform to your beliefs.

And btw, even though it does make me a little sad to hear that you have lost your testimony concerning certain things that you once believed were true, I am hopeful that you are simply taking another step in your journey toward a perfect knowledge of the truth. But of course, each step is always up to you because God is always there for you.

It's good to have you back, Ray. I have always appreciated your remarks. :)

Like I said to Jason in the above post, there are levels of doctrine, and while the Bible does carry it's own significant amount of doctrine, most churches add their own spin to it. The reason I chose a non-denominational church is because I don't know what I believe, and I don't want some denomination telling me what I should believe. The non-denoms. tend to preach and teach the literal words right off the page. While some of the ministers might have personal beliefs about things like the elect or the path to salvation, etc., they try to keep their opinions to themselves and just teach the scriptures and let us decide on our own what we feel led to believe by the HS.

Thanks for your encouragement. It means a lot!

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Originally posted by Jenda+Aug 11 2005, 09:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Aug 11 2005, 09:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Ray@Aug 8 2005, 09:29 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@ Aug 5 2005, 08:16 PM

…I just want to go hear the Bible taught without all the doctrinal "stuff".

It’s impossible to “teach the Bible” without teaching doctrine, so I think you meant you simply want to go someplace where all they do is “read” the Bible. But what would be the point of going somewhere where all they do is “read” the Bible when you can read the Bible all by yourself at home? Are you thinking you might want to associate with a group of people who read the Bible when they get together? And in such associations do you imagine you would want to “talk” to those people who are members of that church, perhaps talking about what you heard while someone “read” the Bible? And by so doing wouldn’t you and they be spreading doctrine concerning the Bible?

If you want to associate with a group of people for religious purposes, you have 3 choices:

1) Associate with people with the same religious beliefs you have,

2) Associate with people that can teach you more than you currently accept, or

3) Form your own church that only associates with people who will conform to your beliefs.

And btw, even though it does make me a little sad to hear that you have lost your testimony concerning certain things that you once believed were true, I am hopeful that you are simply taking another step in your journey toward a perfect knowledge of the truth. But of course, each step is always up to you because God is always there for you.

It's good to have you back, Ray. I have always appreciated your remarks. :)

Like I said to Jason in the above post, there are levels of doctrine, and while the Bible does carry it's own significant amount of doctrine, most churches add their own spin to it. The reason I chose a non-denominational church is because I don't know what I believe, and I don't want some denomination telling me what I should believe. The non-denoms. tend to preach and teach the literal words right off the page. While some of the ministers might have personal beliefs about things like the elect or the path to salvation, etc., they try to keep their opinions to themselves and just teach the scriptures and let us decide on our own what we feel led to believe by the HS.

Thanks for your encouragement. It means a lot!

I was once a member of a non-denominational church called the “Church of Christ”, and I enjoyed their association until I knew through the power of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is sacred scripture and they were trying to tell me that I shouldn’t believe anything else but the Bible.

But since you seem to only accept the Bible now, maybe that issue will never come up.

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