LDS Faith Monotheistic?

[Guest Believer_1829]

Who is trying to divert?

YOU.

You claimed that "our God worships His God just as we worship Him." YOU bear the burden of proof. If it is true you should be able to prove it. But instead you are asking me questions. Prove your claim and I'll answer any question you like.

The reason you can't prove it (show us scripture, lesson manuals, official doctrine) is because YOU ARE JUST MAKING IT UP. YOU ARE FABRICATING NONSENSE. I have never talked to a Mormon, ever, that believes what you falsely proclaimed.

Prediction number three: Can't and Won't

Yet you still refuse to answer my question, I will ask it yet again:

Do you believe our Heavenly Father lived a mortality similar to ours?

It's a really simple question, Snow.

[Snow]

I read your other post and I completely agree with you. n_n

Oh really?

You believe that Athanasius, Iraneus, Clement, etc were heretics and that when they referred to man becoming gods that they were not referring to becoming gods, rather they were referring to judges?

I don't think you agree with that - so why are you saying that you do?

Follow up question: Why is saying that man might become a judge heretical?

[Snow]

Yet you still refuse to answer my question, I will ask it yet again:

Do you believe our Heavenly Father lived a mortality similar to ours?

It's a really simple question, Snow.

That's FIVE TIMES.

You can't prove a single thing about your claim. YOU JUST FABRICATED FALSE DOCTRINE. You are only asking me questions because you can't support your untrue claim.... and. if you had read the posts, you would know what I believe, or accept.

Prediction number six: CAN'T and WON"T.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Snow

[desirexnoel]

Oh really?

You believe that Athanasius, Iraneus, Clement, etc were heretics and that when they referred to man becoming gods that they were not referring to becoming gods, rather they were referring to judges?

I don't think you agree with that - so why are you saying that you do?

Follow up question: Why is saying that man might become a judge heretical?

You are very aggressive. I don't have anything of yours. You are not collecting a debt from me. And I have no idea what you are going on about. If you are going be jump to the offensive at least do so in a way I can understand what the hack you are saying.

I was obviously taught very different from you. I was taught that God is actually a God and not a judge. I was taught we wanted to be like him and so we were sent here to earth to do what he did... to be like him.

Other then that, I have no clue what you are going on about.

[Snow]

Great post, Snow.

Thanks.

Thank you. I appreciate you taking time to read it.

[Guest Believer_1829]

That's FIVE TIMES.

You can't prove a single thing about your claim. YOU JUST FABRICATED FALSE DOCTRINE. You are only asking me questions because you can't support your untrue claim.

Prediction number six: CAN'T and WON"T.

So you refuse to answer my question of whether you believe our Heavenly Father lived a mortality similar to ours? Am I understanding you correctly?

[desirexnoel]

So you refuse to answer my question of whether you believe our Heavenly Father lived a mortality similar to ours? Am I understanding you correctly?

I think you are. I don't understand why Snow is mad about that question. I was taught to believe that as well.

[Hemidakota]

If God went through a mortality, as we are currently experiencing, and progressed to His current station, that means:

A) He has a Heavenly Father

B- He worshipped that Heavenly Father

c) He continues to worship Him, because we never stop worshipping our God

Do you believe our Heavenly Father went through mortality as we are?

Correct assumption. As I worship both our Heavenly Parents in allowing me to involve to be in there image and my examplar - namely Jesus the Christ.

[Snow]

You are very aggressive. I don't have anything of yours. You are not collecting a debt from me. And I have no idea what you are going on about. If you are going be jump to the offensive at least do so in a way I can understand what the hack you are saying.

I was obviously taught very different from you. I was taught that God is actually a God and not a judge. I was taught we wanted to be like him and so we were sent here to earth to do what he did... to be like him.

Other then that, I have no clue what you are going on about.

It is simple what I am talking about. You said you agreed with Dr. T. other post. I don't think that is true. I do not think - in fact I know - that you do not agree with his post. He claimed through inference that those that believed in deification, the Church Fathers, were heretics - that they taught heresy, and that when they taught that man would become god, they didn't mean god, but that they actually meant judge.

Since you do not believe that, I wonder why you said you agree with it?

[Snow]

I think you are. I don't understand why Snow is mad about that question. I was taught to believe that as well.

I didn't say that I don't believe it. In fact I made a long post in which I spoke about it.

The poster made another claim, that God worships another God just as we worship God.

You were never taught that so please don't pretend that you were.

[Snow]

So you refuse to answer my question of whether you believe our Heavenly Father lived a mortality similar to ours? Am I understanding you correctly?

If you would read my posts, you'd know what I believe or accept. I won't answer the question multiple times.

That's SIX times you failed to support your false claims. SIX TIMES;

Prediction seven: Can't and won't.

If I had made a claim, I'd just post the proof and be done with it. The reason you can't is because you are just making it up,

Edited August 20, 2009 by Snow

[lattelady]

Snow, you are making multiple references to church fathers (who were apparently "not heretics") ascribing to a doctrine teaching that man can become gods. Have you given references or quotes for that?

[desirexnoel]

It is simple what I am talking about. You said you agreed with Dr. T. other post. I don't think that is true. I do not think - in fact I know - that you do not agree with his post. He claimed through inference that those that believed in deification, the Church Fathers, were heretics - that they taught heresy, and that when they taught that man would become god, they didn't mean god, but that they actually meant judge.

Since you do not believe that, I wonder why you said you agree with it?

Okay. I am going to make this very clear. I expect you to respect it for not only me, but for everyone that you talk to.

Never EVER presume that you know what I believe. NEVER say you know what I believe. Never presume to know anything about me based on whatever is going on in your head.

I NEVER want to be told what I believe.

I told you what I was taught. I will not take your word for it. If God really meant that we wont be like him... or if God is simply a judge... provide proof.

[desirexnoel]

I didn't say that I don't believe it. In fact I made a long post in which I spoke about it.

The poster made another claim, that God worships another God just as we worship God.

You were never taught that so please don't pretend that you were.

Again. Were you in my past? You can't tell me what I was taught. Why are you so presumptuous? Not everyone believes what you do. Clearly YOU are pretending.

[Snow]

Snow, you are making multiple references to church fathers (who were apparently "not heretics") ascribing to a doctrine teaching that man can become gods. Have you given references or quotes for that?

I don't have time to post all but here is a sampling:

Justin the Martyr said in 150 A.D. that he wishes:

to prove to you that the Holy Ghost reproaches men because they were made like God, free from suffering and death, provided that they kept His commandments, and were deemed deserving of the name of His sons... in the beginning men were made like God, free from suffering and death, and that they are thus deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest...

Also,

[by Psalm 82] it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming “gods,” and even of having power to become sons of the Highest.[Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 124.]

Augustine, one of the greatest Christian Fathers, said:

but He himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying He makes sons of God. For He has given them power to become the sons of God, (John 1:12). If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.[Augustine, On the Psalms, 50:2.]

Clement, of Alexandria taught the doctrine of deification:

yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.[Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks, 1.]

And:

...if one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God...His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, "Men are gods, and gods are men."[Clement of Alexandria, Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 3.1 see also Clement, Stromateis, 23]

Those who have been perfected are given their reward and their honors. They have done with their purification, they have done with the rest of their service, though it be a holy service, with the holy; now they become pure in heart, and because of their close intimacy with the Lord there awaits them a restoration to eternal contemplation; and they have received the title of "gods" since they are destined to be enthroned with the other "gods" who are ranked next below the savior.[Henry Bettenson, The Early Christian Fathers: A Selection from the Writings of the Fathers from St. Clement of Rome to St. Athanasius (London: Oxford University Press, 1956), 243–244. ISBN 0192830090.; Stromata 7:10 (55–56).]

William R. Inge, Archbishop of Canterbury, wrote:

"God became man, that we might become God" was a commonplace of doctrinal theology at least until the time of Augustine, and that "deification holds a very large place in the writings of the fathers...We find it in Irenaeus as well as in Clement, in Athanasius as well in Gregory of Nysee. St. Augustine was no more afraid of deificari in Latin than Origen of apotheosis in Greek...To modern ears the word deification sounds not only strange but arrogant and shocking. [William Ralph Inge, Christian Mysticism (London, Metheun & Co., 1948[1899]), 13, 356.]

The teaching survives in the Eastern Orthodox tradition:

The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology describes "deification" thusly:

Deification (Greek Theosis) is for orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is ‘made in the image and likeness of God’...it is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become God by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both O.T. and N.T. (Ps. 82: (81) .6; 2_Pet. 1:4), and it is essentially the teaching both of St. Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption (Rom. 8:9-17, Gal. 4:5-7) and the fourth gospel (John 17:21-23). [Alan Richardson (editor), The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology (Westminster: John Knox Press, 1983)]

[Guest Believer_1829]

If you would read my posts, you'd know what I believe or accept. I won't answer the question multiple times.

That's SIX times you failed to support your false claims. SIX TIMES;

Prediction seven: Can't and won't.

If I had made a claim, I'd just post the proof and be done with it. The reason you can't is because you are just making it up,

You are a smart man, you know the result of answering the question. Thanks for playing.

**Since we are both anonymous I will be making a record of our little episode to pass along to others.**

[Snow]

Again. Were you in my past? You can't tell me what I was taught. Why are you so presumptuous. Not everyone believes what you do. Clearly YOU are pretending.

Fine - if you believe that God worships another God just as we worship him, just say so and I apologize and correct the record.

However, you don't believe that so don't act bothered that I said the truth.

[Snow]

You are a smart man, you know the result of answering the question. Thanks for playing.

**Since we are both anonymous I will be making a record of our little episode to pass along to others.**

That's EIGHT times you failed to substantiate your claim even though I addressed your question.

Can't and won't and didn't.

[desirexnoel]

Fine - if you believe that God worships another God just as we worship him, just say so and I apologize and correct the record.

However, you don't believe that so don't act bothered that I said the truth.

I wasn't talking about what I believe. My posts aren't very long. I clearly said what I was taught.

You can believe I am a crazy mass murderer. That doesn't change anything. It is simply what is going on in your head. When it comes to me, you "know" nothing.

[Snow]

Okay. I am going to make this very clear. I expect you to respect it for not only me, but for everyone that you talk to.

Never EVER presume that you know what I believe. NEVER say you know what I believe. Never presume to know anything about me based on whatever is going on in your head.

I NEVER want to be told what I believe.

I told you what I was taught. I will not take your word for it. If God really meant that we wont be like him... or if God is simply a judge... provide proof.

Then correct me. Say that you believe that they were heretics and that they didn't mean god, as the poster said, but that they meant judges.

I'll gladly apologize and correct the record but we both know you don't actually believe that so why get all huffy?

I'll ask again, if they meant judges, why is that heretical?

[Guest Believer_1829]

That's EIGHT times you failed to substantiate your claim even though I addressed your question.

Can't and won't and didn't.

You never answered my question you crazy guy you...

Do you believe our Heavenly Father live a mortality similar to ours?

It's a basic yes or no question.

[Snow]

I wasn't talking about what I believe. My posts aren't very long. I clearly said what I was taught.

You can believe I am a crazy mass murderer. That doesn't change anything. It is simply what is going on in your head. When it comes to me, you "know" nothing.

So you don't believe that God worships his God like we worship our God. That was Believers whole point and you said that you were agreeing with him/her.

Okay then, we both agree on what you believe.

[Snow]

You never answered my question you crazy guy you...

Do you believe our Heavenly Father live a mortality similar to ours?

It's a basic yes or no question.

That NINE TIMES you can't and didn't. NINE TIMES

If you had read post 69 you would know just what I believe. If it is on this topic and it's not in post 69, I don't believe it.

[desirexnoel]

So you don't believe that God worships his God like we worship our God.

Nope.

That was Believers whole point and you said that you were agreeing with him/her.

No. I agreed with Dr. T when I God attacked, and Agreed that Believers is speaking to the doctrine I was taught/

Okay then, we both agree on what you believe.

I am pretty sure you don't know what I believe at all.

[lattelady]

I also wanted to ask, since you mentioned that the Pearl of Great Price is a sacred scripture that you trust, wouldn't this set of verses from that book support the idea of polytheism rather than monotheism? Pearl of Great Price-- Abraham 4:1-5 "And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods organized and formed the heavens and the earth. And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything from the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters. And they said: Let their be light; and there was light. And they comprehended the light for it was bright; and they divided the light or caused it to be divided, from the darkness. And the Gods called the light Day and the darkness they called Night..."