Abortion

[Dravin]

I don't think that anyone here fits Mr. Extreme.

Well... I hope not...

I didn't have anyone in mind, it was to illustrate how we tend to assume the most extreme possible interpertation of another's position (generally extremes are easier to argue against), which is why you brought up things like rape and others are bringing up abortion on demand for what ever and any reason.

Pro-Choice brings up, "What about the raped women with a child who won't survive birth and who will most likely kill the Mom coming out."

And Pro-Life brings up, "What about the children killed because some women doesn't want to lose her figure?"

Do you want elective abortions made illegal?

My guess would be no.

Because that is based on my moral opinion and because the unborn baby can't at this point in time be proven to even be conscious I am not against it being legal.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Dravin

[bytebear]

I didn't have anyone in mind, it was to illustrate how we tend to assume the most extreme possible interpertation of another's position (generally extremes are easier to argue against), which is why you brought up things like rape and others are bringing up abortion on demand for what ever and any reason.

Pro-Choice brings up, "What about the raped women with a child who won't survive birth and who will most likely kill the Mom coming out."

And Pro-Life brings up, "What about the children killed because some women doesn't want to lose her figure?"

Yes, if we put those on a scale, the meter tips far more to the latter than the former.

[desirexnoel]

Lol. Yes. Those are easy to argue.

[desirexnoel]

Yes, if we put those on a scale, the meter tips far more to the latter than the former.

Can you elaborate as to what you mean please?

Both of those are good questions and I believe are equal.

[bytebear]

Can you elaborate as to what you mean please?

Both of those are good questions and I believe are equal.

1 = all abortions are bad, regardless of circumstances

10 = all abortions are good, including late term elective abortions.

Right now, the church stands at a 2 or 3 while the laws currently stand at around 8 or 9. I prefer the laws be changed to match the church.

[Dravin]

Yes, if we put those on a scale, the meter tips far more to the latter than the former.

Oh I'm not arguing what number of people who say I do or don't agree with legal abortions hold to one extreme or the other (some undoubtedly do but I don't care to venture numbers), just we tend ascribe it to them, warranted or not.

[desirexnoel]

1 = all abortions are bad, regardless of circumstances

10 = all abortions are good, including late term elective abortions.

Right now, the church stands at a 2 or 3 while the laws currently stand at around 8 or 9. I prefer the laws be changed to match the church.

I am sure all religious organizations want all of the laws to match their churches.

[DarklyDreamingDexter]

Matter of opinion. There are many who would disagree with you.

Murder is a little more cold blooded. Some of the babies who were lost to abortion were only aborted because it was thought to be what was best for those babies. We don't know whether that is the case or not.

I wonder if the suicide rate would go up...

*sigh*

Oh this dialogue is intoxicating. Murder is more cold blooded? The people I've killed all deserved it. I've never met a child, even a severly handicapped one and thought, "they deserve to die". But you say that sometimes its whats best for the baby...to die. Well, sweet desirexnoel, perhaps you will meet someone who feels its in your best interest to die as well. But like you said above, we wont know weather that is the case or not, but regardless, you'd be dead.

In argument for murder its usually done free of charge. Sometimes money changes hands, but not usually. But abortion doctors...they always charge a premieum.

I will say this though in support of one type of abortion- everyone has the right to stay alive. To survive. Even the mother; so if the woman wants to live and the pregnancy is going to kill her, well, at that point its just a matter of survival. Sorry little baby. But also, if the mother is willing to waive that right to survive and die for her unborn child, well, I find honor in that as well.

[desirexnoel]

Oh this dialogue is intoxicating. Murder is more cold blooded? The people I've killed all deserved it. I've never met a child, even a severly handicapped one and thought, "they deserve to die". But you say that sometimes its whats best for the baby...to die. Well, sweet desirexnoel, perhaps you will meet someone who feels its in your best interest to die as well. But like you said above, we wont know weather that is the case or not, but regardless, you'd be dead.

In argument for murder its usually done free of charge. Sometimes money changes hands, but not usually. But abortion doctors...they always charge a premieum.

I will say this though in support of one type of abortion- everyone has the right to stay alive. To survive. Even the mother; so if the woman wants to live and the pregnancy is going to kill her, well, at that point its just a matter of survival. Sorry little baby. But also, if the mother is willing to waive that right to survive and die for her unborn child, well, I find honor in that as well.

I will read this later, although I am sure it is all the same stuff you have been saying.

My sister is over and I like her more.

Have a good day everyone!

[DarklyDreamingDexter]

Tell your sister hello for us all! And warn her not to do anything deserving of death, or she might find Dexter lurking in the shadows.

[bytor2112]

The majority of abortions are performed so that the would be mother is not inconvenienced by an unwanted child. The majority of women who have abortions....have more than one. I won't bother posting these statistics, but they are easily verified, I got them from the Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood.

[Maya]

I am thankful... eternaly thankful to my mother who chose to have me. She could easily have choose to get rid of a "problem" in her life. She chose me and gave me to adaptation. If she had not chosen me I had not been her today.

My daughter got pregnant at 16 due to a party with non LDS friends, she has no memory of what even happened. She decided to keep the baby and what a wonderful young man he has grown to! She could have chosen to take an abort, but she did not. (After all even the school doctor on a lesson about sex life said that everyone should try, when ever they want to!)

Ofcourse my mother and my daughter (and my sister, who gave her child at 16 to adoption) were stupid enough to carry the child, and take the consiquences and hardships instead of "getting rid of the problem".

Some women in fact ARE strong enough to go through the consiquences of someone elses mistakes! But those women are considered to be stupid, uninformed and perhaps forced not to take an abort of religious brainwash or pressed... no clear thinking woman would carry a child they dont want to ... RIGHT!? Today the strong women are considered failures and un-normal.

If God had wanted samesex marriges, He had created Adam and Adam. So is Eve created ONLY for multipying?

As long as we dont know WHEN the embyro is a person... I think we should be more careful about murdering them.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Maya

[Bob_Blaylock]

Did you know abortions happened even when they were illegal? Did you know women died getting these abortions? Don't you think it should be legal just for the safety of the people who are going to do it anyway? Why do they have to die when it can be done safely in hospitals?

There is no such thing as a “safe” abortion.* Every successful abortion results in the death of an innocent human being.

[Justice]

How is this the same thing? If a father rapes his daughter, so you think the daughter wants to carry that around for nine months? What it is an abusive situation and the wife/gf is trying to leave, but then finds out she is pregnant. What if the mother is a crack head and she KNOWS she is not going to stop doing crack anytime soon and would rather get an abortion? That baby will die anyway you know.

People are going to get an abortion anyway, and those people are going to probably die. I know I just repeated myself, but I am not sure you quite got it the first time.

If you don't believe in abortion... don't get one.

There are times we are justified in doing something that is wrong. Many don't understand this.

Killing another person is wrong. But, if someone is in your house at night with a gun, yelling out threats that he is going to kill your children, you are justified if you kill him.

Killing someone because they are in your way, or an inconvenience, is not justifiable.

This applies for having an abortion.

If you have engange in consentual sex and get pregnant, abortion is not justifiable.

If you become pregnant by force, you are justified in getting an abortion.

The problem is that many people want abortion legal so they can use it for convenience. Abortion is wrong and every single one of them should be prosecuted. If a person is deemed justified, then all charges should be dropped.

Now, the only real position that can be taken by those those think it should be a choice is that a baby isn't really alive.

I didn't say it was a good position, because they have no proof it isn't alive. In fact, if left alone it grows. It fits every definition of life we know. But, people often ignore logic for convenience and justification.

[Vort]

I don't agree with people aborting for convenience. Because that is based on my moral opinion...I am not against it being legal.

• Laws against theft are also based on moral opinion.
• Laws against rape are based purely on moral opinion.
• Laws against perjury are based on moral opinion.

So can we assume that you are not against theft, rape, and perjury being legal?

[Vort]

...and because the unborn baby can't at this point in time be proven to even be conscious...

What do you expect, the baby to poke his head out and say "Hey, don't kill me!"?

It is well-established in the medical literature that the unborn baby:

• sleeps.
• cries.
• moves around.
• explores his environment.
• often sucks his hand or thumb to soothe himself.
• has active periods and quiet periods.
• responds to the sound of his mother's voice.

Exactly what will it take to convince you that, yes, the baby is indeed conscious? What more proof do you need?

[Kawazu]

I am sure all religious organizations want all of the laws to match their churches.

Hi,

*Completely blatant sidetracking* I do not want Congress custom-making laws tailored to my belief system. The LDS faith has some ground firmly staked in the idea of agency--that life is about learning how to exercise one's power to choose.

Therefore, the non-Mormons on this board need not worry that I will spearhead a campaign to revive old-time alcohol prohibition. I promise.

Sincerely,

Kawazu

Now, back to the topic at hand...

Edited August 22, 2009 by Kawazu

[Lstinthwrld]

What do you expect, the baby to poke his head out and say "Hey, don't kill me!"?

It is well-established in the medical literature that the unborn baby:

• sleeps.
• cries.
• moves around.
• explores his environment.
• often sucks his hand or thumb to soothe himself.
• has active periods and quiet periods.
• responds to the sound of his mother's voice.

Exactly what will it take to convince you that, yes, the baby is indeed conscious? What more proof do you need?

This may represent the first time that Vort and I come close to being in agreement on a subject.

The key to the pro-life vs pro-choice debate is centered in theology/doctrine/dogma. Exactly when does the soul populate the fetus and create a viable human being (read child of God) and not just a jumble of dividing cells with base instincts?

Science may argue about this but the Christian religion in general (I.E. not a single church body but all of them) is very clear and says this miracle happens at the moment of conception.

There are three parts to this. The essence of the mother the essence of the father and the breath of God at the instant of conception when mitosis begins is when that child starts to live by the grace of God.

Does this mean I am strictly pro-life? No like all corners of life this one is not black and white. There will always be gray. I believe this option no matter how distastefull I personally find it has to be out there and legally available. With restrictions.

I don't however believe this should be an elective procedure but should be governed.

If you are part of a church this should fall under the pastoral responsibilities of your minister/priest/bishop to help council you and ultimately make the recommendation that allows the procedure to happen.

If no religion is involved maybe this would be a good responsibility for a trained and certified counselor to be involved in.

It is a human life.

Period.

Not only a human life but the most precious of human lives. An innocent helpless relies on mommy and daddy for its care and continued existence human life.

Sounds a little harsh and maybe a little too passionate right.

It should.

If this question ever comes up in a woman's life it should be considered with at least this level of reality.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Lstinthwrld

[desirexnoel]

XD Even when I say it is my opinion and we probably wont come to an agreement you still feel the need to try. I was shocked to leave all yesterday and come back this morning and find this thread still going.

No one has told me anything I didn't already know, and introducing me to stuff I already knew doesn't change my opinion that if you don't like abortions don't get one and the law doesn't matter. I don't like abortions and I plan on not getting one.

[Dravin]

No one has told me anything I didn't already know, and introducing me to stuff I already knew doesn't change my opinion that if you don't like abortions don't get one and the law doesn't matter.

If the law doesn't matter you shouldn't care which way it leans, you obviously do, so yes the law matters.

[desirexnoel]

If the law doesn't matter you shouldn't care which way it leans, you obviously do, so yes the law matters.

*sigh* No. I just care WHY it leans.

[foreverafter]

If a father rapes his daughter, so you think the daughter wants to carry that around for nine months? What it is an abusive situation and the wife/gf is trying to leave, but then finds out she is pregnant. What if the mother is a crack head and she KNOWS she is not going to stop doing crack anytime soon and would rather get an abortion? That baby will die anyway you know.

QUOTE]

Two wrongs don't make one right. If we break the commandments & don't repent, God (or at least the consequences)is going to destroy us at some point, even if our own sinful actions don't yet. What do you think he would he say if we asked him to just let people do whatever they wanted without any consequences, make all sin legal, even eternally? This is all about the 'age old desire' to sin without consequences.

And even in a situation of pregnancy from rape, the pain & regret of killing a child, even one conceived by rape, will eventually, in this life or the next, be far more torturous to the woman who had an abortion than if she had just been brave & carried that baby to term & put the babies welfare before her own, as all good mothers do.

Edited August 23, 2009 by foreverafter

[Dravin]

*sigh* No. I just care WHY it leans.

You've already expressed preference to the law being one way over the other, you can't exactly just say, "Well... make it either way, it doesn't matter to me." Trying to claim, "Well, I don't care its just I care about who has the most persuasive arguments, and since that side does I think the law should be as they think (to one degree or another), but it doesn't really matter." is kinda nonsensical in this context and with your previous statements being there for all to see.

You do care the way the law is or you'd have not expressed you believe it should be one way nor would you have provided arguments to support that position. Unless of course you're just arguing to be arguing and you are manufacturing a position to allow you to do that.

Note, caring that it be legal does not mean you personally will take advantage of that fact.

[desirexnoel]

You've already expressed preference to the law being one way over the other, you can't exactly just say, "Well... make it either way, it doesn't matter to me."

No, I said you don't like it, don't do it, which is more like saying the choices of people you probably don't know wont effect you.

Saying I said that... or something like that is twisting my words.

[Dravin]

No, I said you don't like it, don't do it, which is more like saying the choices of people you probably don't know wont effect you.

Saying I said that... or something like that is twisting my words.

Nope, you said the Law doesn't matter, it does. It matters enough that you've voice opinion on it, and as far as others its silly to think that the law doesn't matter unless they are personally effected by it.

I think laws against rape, murder, incest, environmental pollution, bankruptcy, adoption, trial procedures all matter, even if they haven't necessarily affected me on a personal and immediate level. From the position you appear to be coming from it wouldn't matter if it was legal to kill anyone you didn't know or interact with, I'd say it does.

Of course if we really take your position that if it doesn't personally effect you it doesn't matter and considering you have stated you wouldn't get an elective abortion then a law making such illegal shouldn't matter to you, and yet it apparently does, enough so that you've expressed opinion on the matter.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Dravin