Question for non LDS Christians.

[bytebear]

What I don't understand is why people just can't accept history for what it was, instead of attempting to twist it into something they want it to be. Joseph Smith was convicted of "glass looking" a few years prior, so my assumption is that he didn't want to tell other he was using the same method.

1830 was a long time ago. You could make an argument, but since other witnesses used seer stones, I hardly see this as worth the argument.

The bible warns against the use of magic. What was used by people before the bible is hardly an argument for what Jesus Christ left for us in the bible.

Now my question for you: If many of the witnesses used seer stones, why don't Mormons use them today?

Historically you are in error. Smith was apparently tried, but not convicted. But then Jesus was tried, convicted and executed. Was it a secret that Smith was "glass looking?" Not really. In fact it was a common folk magic practice of the time. Bushman believed he got jobs seeking treasure because the neighbors wanted to give the Smith family a little financial help without making them beg. So, by giving Smith a few coins to "seek treasures" on their land, it kept him busy and gave the family some needed income.

No one ever denied the use of seer stones. But they were used after 1830, and after the translation of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon was translated using the interpreters given by the Lord.

Clearly you didn't read, or didnt trust the reference I gave on the use of "magic" in the Bible. But it's from an independent source. You can choose to igore the facts, but they are there. Magic and "occultism" was used by men of God for Godly purposes. So clearly, the modern day notion of black magic (which really dates to about 1960) being evil and of the devil must be false, or at best misconstrued.

So, use of the seer stones is not evil, and was a gift from God. You can choose to believe otherwise, but history, and the Bible prove you wrong.

[Just_A_Guy]

I find WIkiipedia to be quite biased.

No arguments there; but at least as far as this discussion goes their factual documentation seems solid.

I don't believe the contents of the papyrus Emma Smith sold is well known at all. I've heard many stories about the papyrus, like it's "as big as a room" and a lot of people believe it was burned in the fire.

I don't want to be a condescending SOB here, but . . . did you go to Seminary as a teenager? Did you go to Gospel Doctrine class consistently the year they did the Old Testament? The fact that the papyri still exist--and even that they Egyptologists view them as basically copies of the Book of Breathings--is not exactly a state secret.

The Mormon church has the exact papyrus Joseph Smith used to translate the book of Abraham, and it matches letter for letter the book by Joseph Smith Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar.

Not being a Book of Abraham wonk, I'll leave the argument there for others.

If they are not suppressed, can you link me to a source?

I think Elphaba discussed that pretty well in a recent post addressed to me on this thread.

It's not so much about who was telling the truth, but the David Whitmer also had a seer stone, as did many of the 11 witnesses. My question was why it isn't put on display.

Those other stones, for the most part, are in private collections. To the extent that the Church owns any (the Chase stone and, I think, at least one or two others used by other early LDS leaders), I can completely sympathize with their desire not to take holy relics and turn them into circus attractions.

[Lstinthwrld]

Historically you are in error. Smith was apparently tried, but not convicted. But then Jesus was tried, convicted and executed. Was it a secret that Smith was "glass looking?" Not really. In fact it was a common folk magic practice of the time. Bushman believed he got jobs seeking treasure because the neighbors wanted to give the Smith family a little financial help without making them beg. So, by giving Smith a few coins to "seek treasures" on their land, it kept him busy and gave the family some needed income.

No one ever denied the use of seer stones. But they were used after 1830, and after the translation of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon was translated using the interpreters given by the Lord.

Clearly you didn't read, or didnt trust the reference I gave on the use of "magic" in the Bible. But it's from an independent source. You can choose to igore the facts, but they are there. Magic and "occultism" was used by men of God for Godly purposes. So clearly, the modern day notion of black magic (which really dates to about 1960) being evil and of the devil must be false, or at best misconstrued.

So, use of the seer stones is not evil, and was a gift from God. You can choose to believe otherwise, but history, and the Bible prove you wrong.

Don't remember the Salem witch hunts and trials that might have happened a little earlier than 1960 huh? If all those people weren't killed for practicing black magic and witchcraft as the people of the time understood it to be evil why were they killed then. A rebellious knitting circle? I think they had very well defined understanding of black magic then and we still have this understanding today.

[bytebear]

Don't remember the Salem witch hunts and trials that might have happened a little earlier than 1960 huh? If all those people weren't killed for practicing black magic and witchcraft as the people of the time understood it to be evil why were they killed then. A rebellious knitting circle? I think they had very well defined understanding of black magic then and we still have this understanding today.

Black magic vs. folk magic. Folk magic was very common in Smith's day, and the Christians at the time felt no evil from such practices. The "evil" ramifications were stirred up again (after they had been long ignored) in the 1960s, when evangelicals started in on Rock and Roll, and all that "evil". Suddenly all ritual was evil. They ignore the Biblical ramifications of such an absolutist position, but hey, if it stirs up followers... Sure, from time to time, people used such practices as an excuse to persecute, but when Joseph Smith was "gold digging" it wasn't seen as anything but benign. - well, until Smith started the church and his opponents ran around the countryside collecting "affidavits" from his neighbors in an attempt to discredit the prophet. Witch hunt indeed. This is why I hold such "histories" with a bit of skepticism.

Edited September 16, 2009 by bytebear

[Lstinthwrld]

people see what they want to when a justification is required.

[Just_A_Guy]

I cannot speak as to all the ins and outs of black magic vs white magic, but the evidence is pretty solid that the Christian population of Joseph Smith's Palmyra had few compunctions about it (it was the educated secularists, influenced by Enlightenment ideas, who really held it in disdain).

Heck, Willard Chase--who was one of Smith's money-digging partners, was angry that Smith had taken the seer stone for himself rather than sharing it with Chase, and whose sister later led an expedition to steal the gold plates from the Smith farm assisted by a peep stone of her own--was a Methodist minister.

The Salem witch trials are fascinating to read about. I recall, in a colonial American history class, reading one scholarly work that suggested the witch trials weren't so much about genuine fears of evil magic, as they were a convenient mechanism to get rid of nonconformists and allow catty old colonists to work out their personal vendettas.

[Elphaba]

David Whitmer recorded the use of a seer stone. For more, see this issue of Dialogue (starting at page 48) by Van Wagoner and Walker; or Bushman's biography of Joseph Smith (Rough Stone Rolling).

I was tearing my hair out trying to find this article, but couldn't remember where it was even published, so I gave up. I'd even already read this post, but was flitting through the thread, and POP and SIZZLE! There it was! Excellent!

This article is a must read for anyone interested Joseph's use of seer stones.

Since we're talking about seer stones, I thought I'd link to a post I wrote last April about them. Most people don't realize how prevalent they were in the early Church through the pioneer phase.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

An interesting sidenote: Joseph never stopped believing in the power of the seer stone. In fact, he encouraged members to find one for themselves and use it; however, a number of times when someone brought him a seer stone that had worked for him/her, Joseph declared it true, but a work of the devil.

Brigham Young (though he claimed no talent for it), Orson Pratt, Heber C. Kimball, and Orson Hyde also encouraged the Saints to find and use their own seerstones.

Innumerable Saints used their own seerstones in Palmyra, Kirtland, and Nauvoo. This continued during the pioneer period in Utah, especially in the cities of Salt Lake City, Tooele, Parowan, Kaysville and Logan. The Saints also used them in Cardston, Canada.

Women were especially adept at using them, and are often credited, by members at the time, for finding lost cattle, lost children, the faces of future husbands or wives, etc.

It was around the 1880s when Church authorities began advising against the use of seerstones, especially with women, as they did not hold the priesthood. They believed the Church needed to move from its "folk magic" beginnings. After this the use of seerstones dropped off significantly.

However, it never stopped completely, and in fact, a number of members still used them. As late is 1985 a few women in the Relif Society in Portland, Oregon used them for spiritual guidance.

This is all from Early Magic and the Mormon Worldview, D. Michael Quinn, pp. 247-255 entitled "Seer Stones--Other People's." It is a fascinating read for people interested in the Church's use of seer stones.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Bushman believed he got jobs seeking treasure because the neighbors wanted to give the Smith family a little financial help without making them beg. So, by giving Smith a few coins to "seek treasures" on their land, it kept him busy and gave the family some needed income.

Reference please, because this is very misleading.

Everyone who gave Smith money did so because they truly believed he could find lost treasure. They didn't do so just to help out the family.

No one ever denied the use of seer stones. But they were used after 1830, and after the translation of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon was translated using the interpreters given by the Lord.

Again, a reference please. You are simply wrong when you say the seer stones were used only after 1830.

It is so well-known that Joseph did use his seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon, I can't imagine where you have read/heard otherwise.

Elphaba

Edited September 17, 2009 by Elphaba
My edit didn't show up right away. Please read this version.

[Just_A_Guy]

Women were especially adept at using them, and are often credited, by members at the time, for finding lost cattle, lost children, the faces of future husbands or wives, etc.

That's amazing, Elphaba, because you just reminded me that my mother has told me in the past that my Idaho Mormon grandmother (still going strong at 92) has a "crystal ball" she occasionally uses. I've never worked up the courage to ask her about it, and my grandfather--a convert--wasn't very big on it.

I'd never connected that with the LDS tradition of seerstones. Now, I wonder . . .

[bytebear]

Reference please, because this is very misleading.

Everyone who gave Smith money did so because they truly believed he could find lost treasure. They didn't do so just to help out the family.

Again, a reference please. You are simply wrong when you say the seer stones were used only after 1830.

It is so well-known that Joseph did use his seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon, I can't imagine where you have read/heard otherwise.

Elphaba

I will look in the Bushman book later, and I read a very convincing article about the references to use of the seer stone with the Book of Mormon, but if you read the references carefully, there is no direct mention by anyone actually involved in the translation. It was commonly believed even by early saints, but it cannot be verified with anything but third party, post 1830 accounts.

[Elphaba]

I will look in the Bushman book later, and I read a very convincing article about the references to use of the seer stone with the Book of Mormon, but if you read the references carefully, there is no direct mention by anyone actually involved in the translation. It was commonly believed even by early saints, but it cannot be verified with anything but third party, post 1830 accounts.

I look forward to reading about this. I always welcome more information, especially corrections.

I still am confused why you insist there were only third-party accounts. All four of Joseph's scribes describe Joseph putting his seer stone in his hat, etc.

I should make a clarification that you are correct the first Urim and Thummin was a spectacle-like object with two stones. I think it is Harris who says Joseph tried using the spectacles at first, but becuase the spectacles were attached to a breastplate, it was too cumbersome. So Joseph took the stones from the spectacles, and put them in the hat, then put his face in it where the words would appear.

After the Harris fiasco where his wife destroyed the 116 pages, this Urim and Thummim was taken away from Joseph. I've read that it was later returned, and that it wasn't. Perhaps you have some information on that.

Elphaba

[RiversideGuy]

Black magic vs. folk magic. Folk magic was very common in Smith's day, and the Christians at the time felt no evil from such practices. The "evil" ramifications were stirred up again (after they had been long ignored) in the 1960s, when evangelicals started in on Rock and Roll, and all that "evil". Suddenly all ritual was evil. They ignore the Biblical ramifications of such an absolutist position, but hey, if it stirs up followers... Sure, from time to time, people used such practices as an excuse to persecute, but when Joseph Smith was "gold digging" it wasn't seen as anything but benign. - well, until Smith started the church and his opponents ran around the countryside collecting "affidavits" from his neighbors in an attempt to discredit the prophet. Witch hunt indeed. This is why I hold such "histories" with a bit of skepticism.

Practicing "folk-magic" is seen by Fundamentalist christians as being self-empowerment. To trust in "magic" takes the focus off of God and places it in the hands of the man who has "the power."

[prisonchaplain]

Without directly commenting on Joseph Smith and his history, I would mention that the issue of "magic" vs. God's spiritual power has probably been a contentious one throughout church history. Pentecostalism has always battled charges that it engages is demonic activities. Even today, Christians in the Congo have fallen pray to so-called Christian exorcists, who use horrific rituals to drive demons out of so-called child witches.

I'm not privy to the particular controversies of the first half of the 1800s, but I would be surprised to find that there were none. I'd guess even "water witching" had/has its Christian opponents and proponents.

[bytebear]

Practicing "folk-magic" is seen by Fundamentalist christians as being self-empowerment. To trust in "magic" takes the focus off of God and places it in the hands of the man who has "the power."

I agree that that can happen, but that is why the scriptures warn of counterfeit power. Moses and the court magician are perfect examples. One is done with the power of God, the other is not. I don;t think Smith was using the power of God in his treasure hunting, but I do not think he was acting in an evil manner either. I do think he was learning a powerful lesson about a power for which he would be given the true authority to use later. God was preparing him to accept the "magical" and to learn the difference between the true power of God and the counterfeit.

[FunkyTown]

I agree that that can happen, but that is why the scriptures warn of counterfeit power. Moses and the court magician are perfect examples. One is done with the power of God, the other is not. I don;t think Smith was using the power of God in his treasure hunting, but I do think he was learning a powerful lesson about a power for which he would be given the true authority to use later. God was preparing him to accept the "magical" and to learn the difference between the true power of God and the counterfeit.

I uncomfortably must disagree. The bible is pretty straightforward about things like familiar spirits and sorcerors.

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the

lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 22:15:

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Malachi 3:5

And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

*****

So, it's definitely not a good thing. I don't think it's important, since every prophet has committed sin. I think it's important to recognize that: Moses killed a man(And nobody can say God told him to, since that definitely isn't in the bible), Jonah fled in terror from doing what God wanted and Noah was a drunkard.

Prophets don't need to be perfect. They need to be called of God.

[bytebear]

I uncomfortably must disagree. The bible is pretty straightforward about things like familiar spirits and sorcerors.

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the

lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 22:15:

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Malachi 3:5

And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

*****

So, it's definitely not a good thing. I don't think it's important, since every prophet has committed sin. I think it's important to recognize that: Moses killed a man(And nobody can say God told him to, since that definitely isn't in the bible), Jonah fled in terror from doing what God wanted and Noah was a drunkard.

Prophets don't need to be perfect. They need to be called of God.

Did you read the reference I gave earlier?

There are a number of instances in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) where respected biblical leaders were involved with various black magic, divination and occultic activities as a normal part of their daily activities -- apparently without any condemnations from God:

Divination, magic & occultic activity in the Bible

[RiversideGuy]

Did you read the reference I gave earlier?

Please point one of these Biblical references out ----- where a man of GOD practiced "black-magic," and was not punished by God.

[bytebear]

Please point one of these Biblical references out ----- where a man of GOD practiced "black-magic," and was not punished by God.

See the link above.

[RiversideGuy]

See the link above.

Thank you. I have now read this but I do see a problem with the terminology. The Bible needs to be understood with some careful consideration of who is being addressed. Clearly, when Christ Jesus was accused of driving out demons by Beelzebub (see Matthew 12:22-28), the Pharisees were accusing Jesus of occult activities.

We can see Jesus' answer to that there. In the link provided, I can see where there might be some confusion, but let us reason together...

In Genesis 44:5, Joseph was posing as an Egyptian. His brothers certainly had no idea of who they were dealing with. They likely saw him as some pagan. Also, while the stealing of a cup was bad, the idea that the cup was said to have special powers would provide Joseph with some rational reasoning for Joseph to become aware that the "cup" was even missing. There is no indication that Joseph practiced such magic...

Now in Numbers 5:12-31 and 27:21 ---- The Lord has provided the means through which the priests were to find out guilt. Again, clearly, God is tells Moses the what and how such ritual is to be done. This was not for anyone, anywhere. There were specific people who could perform specific rituals.

In II Kings 2:23-24 Elisha curses the boys in the name of the Lord. This may also have been a learning experience for Elisha to control his temper, and not call on the Lord abitrarily. Or it maybe that these were young men who were about no good. In either case, Elisha called out in the name of God. And God interacted.

Casting lots is a way to beseech God to interact and make the selection. This is how men of God would understand such an act, and this is exactly what the disciples of Christ did to choose a disciple to replace Judas who killed himself.

Daniel is an extreem case, but it must be understood that King Nebuchadnezzar appointed Daniel to the post. This was very likely done by Nebuchadnezzar as a means to both honor and protect Daniel, who was likely on a hit list among those in power. One attempt was already done to have Daniel thrown in a lion's den. The king loved Daniel and so it is likely this was a way to both keep him close and out of harms way. It also seems that Daniel never needed to use magic. He had dreams and saw visions induced by God. So just because Daniel was in the King's house, doesn't mean that he ate the King's food. In other words, Daniel was God's man and did not perform magic of any sort.

Special rods, charms, and incantations would seem to be not of God, but places the "power" in the hand's of "important" men. God hates pride AND "magic" would seem to be about the abilities of human endeavor. But maybe we are simply missing what the other is trying to say...

Edited September 21, 2009 by RiversideGuy

[FunkyTown]

Did you read the reference I gave earlier?

Yyyyes. And I should point out that they weren't really accurate references:

In Genesis 44:5, Joseph's household manager refers to a silver drinking cup "...in which my lord drinketh and whereby indeed he devineth". Later, Joseph accuses his brothers of stealing the cup, saying "that such a man as I can certainly divine [the identity of the thieves]". These passages show that Joseph engaged in scrying. This is an ancient occultic method of divination in which a cup or other vessel is filled with water and gazed into. This technique of foretelling the future was used by Nostradamus and is still used today.

Joseph didn't divine by drinking from a cup. The whole thing was a sting operation because his brothers tried to have him killed but sold him in to slavery. He knew the cup was there because he planted it as per:

Genesis 44:1-3

Genesis 44

1And he commanded the steward of his house, saying, Fill the men's sacks with food, as much as they can carry, and put every man's money in his sack's mouth.

2And put my cup, the silver cup, in the sack's mouth of the youngest, and his corn money. And he did according to the word that Joseph had spoken.

3As soon as the morning was light, the men were sent away, they and their asses.

I mean... That's not really divining when he planted the thing on them.

Oh, and THIS one:

Numbers 5:12-31 describes a ritual of black magic that the Priest would perform on a woman if her husband suspected that she he had committed adultery. Verse 17 says: "Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.." She and her husband would go, with an offering of barley meal, to the tabernacle. The priest would make a magical drink consisting of holy water and sweepings from the tabernacle floor. He would have the woman drink the water while he recited a curse on her. The curse would state that her abdomen would swell and her thigh waste away if she had committed adultery. Otherwise, the curse would have no effect. If she were pregnant at this time, the curse would certainly induce an abortion. Yet nobody seems to have been concerned about the fate of any embryo or fetus that was present. There was no similar magical test that a woman could require her husband to take if she suspected him of adultery.

Is this website SERIOUSLY saying that advice from Numbers is considered black magic? It's not black magic any more than Passover is black magic.

There are no examples of someone who actively used sorcery where the sorcery was considered a good thing.

[Islander]

I'd love to her what you disagree with regarding the facts in my post.

I find this response interesting. When you say you answer the same questions over again, you can tell when you are not responding for the reason of learning. I disagree, as I would sincerely like to learn from you. Can you tell me exactly what I said you that you disagree with?

So your interest is in theology or history? I am still trying to figure out that one.

[bytebear]

Is this website SERIOUSLY saying that advice from Numbers is considered black magic? It's not black magic any more than Passover is black magic.

There are no examples of someone who actively used sorcery where the sorcery was considered a good thing.

I think you are missing the point. Yes the website uses modern terms to explain the issues, but that's because modern Christianity has decided that all mystical divination is evil and of the devil. The truth is, there is a true priesthood and a false priesthood, and both look very similar, but not all such activities are inherently evil.

[Moksha]

As late is 1985 a few women in the Relif Society in Portland, Oregon used them for spiritual guidance.

Elphaba

Possibly even later...

[prisonchaplain]

I think you are missing the point. Yes the website uses modern terms to explain the issues, but that's because modern Christianity has decided that all mystical divination is evil and of the devil. The truth is, there is a true priesthood and a false priesthood, and both look very similar, but not all such activities are inherently evil.

OK, help me out here...because this is culture shock for me. Divination, soothsaying, fortune telling, tarot cards, ouija boards--I grew up learning that these were extremely bad and serious sins. To play with these was to invite the demonic. And I speak as one who regularly sees prophetic words, prayers for the sick, those who have dreams and visions. But, we never use objects with alleged spiritual powers. I suppose the closest we would come is to use anointing oil when praying for the sick. But that is directly perscribed by Scripture.

Yes there are true and false priests. But any efforts at fortune telling and divinitation are universally condemned in the Scriptures I know.

BTW, while religioustolerance.org can be a good source of information, it is not specifically religious in outlook, and it does criticize religious groups that oppose homosexual behavior...so not sure it's the best source for this topic. See the following for its worldview: Statement of beliefs of the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance (OCRT)

Edited September 27, 2009 by prisonchaplain

[Islander]

PC is absolutely right. The Lord condemns ALL of those practices. When it comes to the word of God rely on His word in the scripures and what His prophets have said. Opinions may be interesting but not an authority on the matter.