The Righteous VS. The Good

[Maxel]

OR

Will the Lord forestall destroying a city/nation for the sake of those living Terrestrial-level lives?

I was thinking about this the other day.

First of all- who are the righteous? I think the simple answer might be "those who live celestial lives, who will inherit celestial glory". Who are they; what are their characteristics? D&C 76:50-70 describe the traits of celestial beings; a couple of phrases I feel are important:

They have "received the testimony of Jesus [and submitted to His orinances], according to the commandment which He has given" (v. 51), "overcome by faith" (v. 53), and are "just" and "true" (vv. 53, 69).

What are the characteristics of terrestrial beings? D&C 76:71-80 lists them.

They are those who "died without law" (v. 72), are "honorable men of the earth" but were "blinded by the craftiness of men" (v. 75), and are "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus".

So, the question is: would the Lord forestall visiting judgment on a city or people if there are still terrestrial-level people in the society? We know the Lord will not destroy the righteous with the wicked- but do terrestrial people count as "righteous"?

Edited September 2, 2009 by Maxel
Clarifying the purpose of this thread

[Moksha]

but do terrestrial people count as "righteous"?

Also, what about those who have not done their home teaching assignments for the month?

[Traveler]

OR

Will the Lord forestall judgment for the sake of the Terrestrial-kingdom people?

I was thinking about this the other day.

First of all- who are the righteous? I think the simple answer might be "those who live celestial lives, who will inherit celestial glory". Who are they; what are their characteristics? D&C 76:50-70 describe the traits of celestial beings; a couple of phrases I feel are important:

They have "received the testimony of Jesus [and submitted to His orinances], according to the commandment which He has given" (v. 51), "overcome by faith" (v. 53), and are "just" and "true" (vv. 53, 69).

What are the characteristics of terrestrial beings? D&C 76:71-80 lists them.

They are those who "died without law" (v. 72), are "honorable men of the earth" but were "blinded by the craftiness of men" (v. 75), and are "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus".

So, the question is: would the Lord forestall visiting judgment on a city or people if there are still terrestrial-level people in the society? We know the Lord will not destroy the righteous with the wicked- but do terrestrial people count as "righteous"?

This is my opinion in understanding a loving and compassionate G-d - I really believe G-d will bless us and help us to obtain exactly what we desire. I really do not understand why anyone would speak or imply that the judgments of G-d are a "Bad" thing???? For anybody. I believe his judgements are the best thing that can possibly happen - For everybody!!!

The Traveler

[bytebear]

not valiant in the testimony of Jesus

I think this is the key phrase. You can have a testimony of Jesus Christ but still not live up to the example of Christ. You know the truth, but choose not to commit to it. Maybe you are deceived in believing the church is not of Christ and therefore, never look further into the restored gospel. I believe it's those who had the opportunity to covenant with God (either baptism or endowment) but choose not to for whatever reason.

[Snow]

OR

Will the Lord forestall judgment for the sake of the Terrestrial-kingdom people?

I was thinking about this the other day.

First of all- who are the righteous? I think the simple answer might be "those who live celestial lives, who will inherit celestial glory". Who are they; what are their characteristics? D&C 76:50-70 describe the traits of celestial beings; a couple of phrases I feel are important:

They have "received the testimony of Jesus [and submitted to His orinances], according to the commandment which He has given" (v. 51), "overcome by faith" (v. 53), and are "just" and "true" (vv. 53, 69).

What are the characteristics of terrestrial beings? D&C 76:71-80 lists them.

They are those who "died without law" (v. 72), are "honorable men of the earth" but were "blinded by the craftiness of men" (v. 75), and are "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus".

So, the question is: would the Lord forestall visiting judgment on a city or people if there are still terrestrial-level people in the society? We know the Lord will not destroy the righteous with the wicked- but do terrestrial people count as "righteous"?

God - according to the Bible - has repeatedly destroyed the innocent, why wouldn't he destroy those you call righteous?

[Maxel]

This is my opinion in understanding a loving and compassionate G-d - I really believe G-d will bless us and help us to obtain exactly what we desire. I really do not understand why anyone would speak or imply that the judgments of G-d are a "Bad" thing???? For anybody. I believe his judgements are the best thing that can possibly happen - For everybody!!!

I don't mean to imply that the Lord's judgments are ever bad. I believe that the Lord's actions are perfect and just, and that the eventual destination (telestial, terrestrial, or celestial kingdom) of every man and woman will be the place (s)he desires to be, and perfectly merciful and just according to the mercy and justice of the Lord.

That being said, I'm talking about the Lord destroying earthly societies (such as Sodom, Gomorrah, various Nephite cities, etc.). I have, until now, assumed that these cities were filled with people living telestial lives- refusing law and revelling in wickedness. However, is it possible that there would be people living terrestrial lives there as well?

The idea that those living terrestrial lives are "honorable men of the earth blinded by the craftiness of man" makes me stop and wonder. If a person is born and raised in a wicked society and lives an "honorable" life according to the standards of their society, they may still be doing some very wicked things. However, it might be said that their wickedness is a result of the society they were raised in; if they "knew better" they would do better.

So, are these people accounted as "the righteous" when we consider the principle that "God will not destroy the righteous with the wicked"? Or do societies that the Lord destroys contain only people living telestial lives; all who would live terrestrial lives move away/die?

[Hemidakota]

This is my opinion in understanding a loving and compassionate G-d - I really believe G-d will bless us and help us to obtain exactly what we desire. I really do not understand why anyone would speak or imply that the judgments of G-d are a "Bad" thing???? For anybody. I believe his judgements are the best thing that can possibly happen - For everybody!!!

The Traveler

If my desire to see the FIRST ADAM or the original CHRIST, would HE grant this desire?

[Hemidakota]

OR

Will the Lord forestall destroying a city/nation for the sake of those living Terrestrial-level lives?

I was thinking about this the other day.

1] First of all- who are the righteous? I think the simple answer might be "those who live celestial lives, who will inherit celestial glory". Who are they; what are their characteristics? D&C 76:50-70 describe the traits of celestial beings; a couple of phrases I feel are important:

They have "received the testimony of Jesus [and submitted to His ordinances], according to the commandment which He has given" (v. 51), "overcome by faith" (v. 53), and are "just" and "true" (vv. 53, 69).

2] What are the characteristics of terrestrial beings? D&C 76:71-80 lists them.

They are those who "died without law" (v. 72), are "honorable men of the earth" but were "blinded by the craftiness of men" (v. 75), and are "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus".

3] So, the question is: would the Lord forestall visiting judgment on a city or people if there are still terrestrial-level people in the society? We know the Lord will not destroy the righteous with the wicked- but do terrestrial people count as "righteous"?

1] Reminder to Moksha, not even Home teaching is a path to the highest order in the Celestial Kingdom.

Celestial Kingdom is big place but limited to them the Lord has called out of this world to receive the highest order. If you wish to know what a Celestial being is, look at the Savior Himself as the exemplar of GOD. If not, then look at Joseph Smith. 

2] There will be members of the church will also inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom, along with many scholars [honorable] of the world who can abide in this glory.

3] The tares of the church will not inherit this but a lesser kingdom. They will be sifted out prior to the Lord’s return. I can attest, it will start in Salt Lake valley and then throughout the world as the four angels will be granted there voice in removing them first.

If a person who abides the laws of the Terrestrial Kingdom may not be spared during the calamities foretold by John and Joseph Smith. Nor it will spare a city or land from total destruction. Our first goals is not emergency supplies but ensure we are receiptable to the Spirit and attune to its beckoning call. Some areas in the America for example will not be spared but need to return to the original design as it was during the Garden of Eden. The Spirit will utter its warning to depart the area as it did to Lehi in leaving Jerusalem. If we are receptacle to the spirit, we plan our emergency supplies according to what is given. Lehi left everything and took what was necessary to accomplish the journey.

[Traveler]

I don't mean to imply that the Lord's judgments are ever bad. I believe that the Lord's actions are perfect and just, and that the eventual destination (telestial, terrestrial, or celestial kingdom) of every man and woman will be the place (s)he desires to be, and perfectly merciful and just according to the mercy and justice of the Lord.

That being said, I'm talking about the Lord destroying earthly societies (such as Sodom, Gomorrah, various Nephite cities, etc.). I have, until now, assumed that these cities were filled with people living telestial lives- refusing law and revelling in wickedness. However, is it possible that there would be people living terrestrial lives there as well?

The idea that those living terrestrial lives are "honorable men of the earth blinded by the craftiness of man" makes me stop and wonder. If a person is born and raised in a wicked society and lives an "honorable" life according to the standards of their society, they may still be doing some very wicked things. However, it might be said that their wickedness is a result of the society they were raised in; if they "knew better" they would do better.

So, are these people accounted as "the righteous" when we consider the principle that "God will not destroy the righteous with the wicked"? Or do societies that the Lord destroys contain only people living telestial lives; all who would live terrestrial lives move away/die?

I think if you look closely at what is happening when G-d destroys a society that it is because it is necessary to protect the righteous and not so much to punish the wicked. One of the interesting thoughts I encountered in the Book of Enoch concerning the flood of Noah is that the flood was to end a society that had become so corrupt that children were born only for carnal purposes.

It is my belief that when a society becomes so oriented that marriage before G-d is no longer respected and upheld but replaced in order for diversity and tolerance and families with children are no longer protected that such a society must be destroyed to save the children (which by the way was the reason that Jonah was sent to Nineveh – but they repented.)

The Traveler

[Traveler]

1] Reminder to Moksha, not even Home teaching is a path to the highest order in the Celestial Kingdom.

Celestial Kingdom is big place but limited to them the Lord has called out of this world to receive the highest order. If you wish to know what a Celestial being is, look at the Savior Himself as the exemplar of GOD. If not, then look at Joseph Smith. 

2] There will be members of the church will also inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom, along with many scholars [honorable] of the world who can abide in this glory.

3] The tares of the church will not inherit this but a lesser kingdom. They will be sifted out prior to the Lord’s return. I can attest, it will start in Salt Lake valley and then throughout the world as the four angels will be granted there voice in removing them first.

If a person who abides the laws of the Terrestrial Kingdom may not be spared during the calamities foretold by John and Joseph Smith. Nor it will spare a city or land from total destruction. Our first goals is not emergency supplies but ensure we are receiptable to the Spirit and attune to its beckoning call. Some areas in the America for example will not be spared but need to return to the original design as it was during the Garden of Eden. The Spirit will utter its warning to depart the area as it did to Lehi in leaving Jerusalem. If we are receptacle to the spirit, we plan our emergency supplies according to what is given. Lehi left everything and took what was necessary to accomplish the journey.

Has it ever occurred to you that some find pride (I will define pride as the attempt at the gathering of blessings for self) much more enjoyable, fun, exciting and fulfilling than the promptings of the spirit (I will define the promptings of the spirit as the sacrifice of self for the benefit of others).

Many “good” LDS are striving for the Celestial kingdom hanging on to pride. Anyway I think this is our hardest test because that is my experience and struggle with self.

The Traveler

[Maxel]

I think if you look closely at what is happening when G-d destroys a society that it is because it is necessary to protect the righteous and not so much to punish the wicked. One of the interesting thoughts I encountered in the Book of Enoch concerning the flood of Noah is that the flood was to end a society that had become so corrupt that children were born only for carnal purposes.

It is my belief that when a society becomes so oriented that marriage before G-d is no longer respected and upheld but replaced in order for diversity and tolerance and families with children are no longer protected that such a society must be destroyed to save the children (which by the way was the reason that Jonah was sent to Nineveh – but they repented.)

The Traveler

Good points! I guess the question is, then, would anyone living a Terrestrial-level (mortal) life choose to stick around a place as wicked as Sodom or Ammonihah; a place ripe for destruction?

When we consider that the destruction of a wicked society might be for the benefit of the children, I guess that said society could contain Terrestrial-level mortals who have been blinded by the wickedness of traditions and the craftiness of men.

[Moksha]

How do the people mentioned in the Beatitudes figure into this, such as, Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Hemidakota]

What is the meaning? To be poor in spirit means to be humble, teachable, contrite, meek, obedient. As the Phillips Modern Translation states, the meek are those who "know their need for GOD." To be poor in spirit is to recognize that we are not self-sufficient spiritually (or materially, for that matter), but rather that we are always in debt to our Heavenly Father, from whom all blessings flow. In fact, our posture before our GOD is as the needy, even as beggars. President Harold B. Lee stated:

"To be poor in spirit is to feel yourselves as the spiritually needy, even dependent upon the Lord for your clothes, your food, the air you breathe, your health, your life; realizing that no day should pass without fervent prayer of thanksgiving, for guidance and forgiveness and strength sufficient for each day's need. If a youth realizes his spiritual need, when in dangerous places where his very life is at stake, he may be drawn close to the fountain of truth and be prompted by the Spirit of the Lord in his hour of greatest trial. It is indeed a sad thing for one, because of his wealth or learning or worldly position, to think himself independent of this spiritual need. [Poor in spirit] is the opposite of pride or self-conceit. To the worldly rich it is that 'he must possess his wealth as if he possessed it not' and be willing to say without regret, if he were suddenly to meet financial disaster, as did Job, 'The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.' (Job 1:21.) Thus, if in your humility you sense your spiritual need, you are made ready for adoption into the 'church of the Firstborn,' and to become 'the elect of God.' " (Stand Ye in Holy Places, pp. 343-44.)

Edited September 2, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Before I forget, let me add also - how many ways can it be written?

Book of Mormon: "Yea, blessed are the poor in spirit who come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (3 Nephi 12:3.)

King James Version: "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:3.)

Jerusalem Bible: "How happy are the poor in spirit; theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Phillips Modern English Bible: "How happy are those who know their need for God, for the kingdom of Heaven is theirs!"

[Snow]

I think if you look closely at what is happening when G-d destroys a society that it is because it is necessary to protect the righteous and not so much to punish the wicked.

For the sake of argument, assume that there was a world wide flood as described in the bible is historical...

Why was it necessary to wipe out the inhabitants of the American continents in order to protect Noah and company?

[Traveler]

For the sake of argument, assume that there was a world wide flood as described in the bible is historical...

Why was it necessary to wipe out the inhabitants of the American continents in order to protect Noah and company?

I believe that the "whole" earth was filled with wickedness. There was no where Noah and family could go. The other interesting thing about this time period is that Enoch and the covenant cities were taken from the earth. Following the flood, when the L-rd estaplished his covenant with Noah and his sons, that covenant was called the covenant of peace. The Hebrew word for peace is Salem and Salem on two mountains is Jerusalem.

The covenant of Enoch was also called the covenant of peace and I wonder if his city was also called Salem. It is quite common when two places are called by the same name one is prefased with the term "New" - for example New York and New England. Thus the return of Salem is called Jerusalem and the retrun of the city of Enoch is called New Jerusalem.

The Traveler

[Moksha]

What is the meaning? To be poor in spirit means to be humble, teachable, contrite, meek, obedient.

Or it could mean those who are sad and depressed.

[Guest Alana]

Good points! I guess the question is, then, would anyone living a Terrestrial-level (mortal) life choose to stick around a place as wicked as Sodom or Ammonihah; a place ripe for destruction?

Sure there are very righteous saints in San Francisco. Even some here in Santa Cruz! Ok, I kid, but not much.

[Snow]

I believe that the "whole" earth was filled with wickedness. There was no where Noah and family could go. The other interesting thing about this time period is that Enoch and the covenant cities were taken from the earth. Following the flood, when the L-rd estaplished his covenant with Noah and his sons, that covenant was called the covenant of peace. The Hebrew word for peace is Salem and Salem on two mountains is Jerusalem.

The covenant of Enoch was also called the covenant of peace and I wonder if his city was also called Salem. It is quite common when two places are called by the same name one is prefased with the term "New" - for example New York and New England. Thus the return of Salem is called Jerusalem and the retrun of the city of Enoch is called New Jerusalem.

The Traveler

Could you address the question?

Your contention was that God destroyed people, not to punish the wicked but to protect the righteous.

How did destroying inhabitants of the american continents protect Noah?

As to whether there was any place that Noah could safely go on earth - the estimated historical population for that time is 15-30 million. There just weren't that many people around. They could have gone lots of places.

[Just_A_Guy]

Could you address the question?

Your contention was that God destroyed people, not to punish the wicked but to protect the righteous.

How did destroying inhabitants of the american continents protect Noah?

As to whether there was any place that Noah could safely go on earth - the estimated historical population for that time is 15-30 million. There just weren't that many people around. They could have gone lots of places.

If we're going to be literal about the flood, we've also got to be literal about the story of Peleg. In which case, there were no American continents at the time of the flood.

(I'm not sure I buy the literal view of events; I'm just sayin' we should be consistent here. :) )

[Snow]

If we're going to be literal about the flood, we've also got to be literal about the story of Peleg. In which case, there were no American continents at the time of the flood.

(I'm not sure I buy the literal view of events; I'm just sayin' we should be consistent here. :) )

Not really.

Genesis says that in that time, the earth was divided. "Earth" is the translation of the transliterated word:

'erets

the definitions of which are:

earth

whole earth (as opposed to a part)

earth (as opposed to heaven)

earth (inhabitants)

land

country, territory

district, region

tribal territory

piece of ground

land of Canaan, Israel

inhabitants of land

Sheol, land without return, (under) world

city (-state)

It could mean that the land was divided - (which it wasn't) or that the inhabitants of the land (country, district or territory) were divided.

Since we know that the continents were not divided at that time, it has to refer to something else.

[Just_A_Guy]

Thanks, Snow. I'd be interested to see how that verse was traditionally interpreted before the rise of the higher critics in the late 19th/20th centuries. Was there any sort of "consensus" at that time?

[Maxel]

If the entire antediluvian world was wicked and outright rejected God, then it is within God's sphere of authority to destroy them.

Traveler's original statement:

I think if you look closely at what is happening when G-d destroys a society that it is because it is necessary to protect the righteous and not so much to punish the wicked.

does not exclude the possibility that the Lord destroys a society because of its wickedness; that the Lord only destroys a wicked people for the sake of the righteous.

I'd appreciate it if the historicity tangent was dropped; I don't want this to turn into another thread debating the the (im)possibility of a worldwide flood. As long as the conversation relating to the flood stays related to the OP and topic that's fine. Thanks in advance, guys.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Maxel

[Snow]

If the entire antediluvian world was wicked and outright rejected God, then it is within God's sphere of authority to destroy them.

Yes, hear, hear. The world needed to be cleansed of all those evil and iniquitous two-year-olds. Why - they were setting a horrible example for all those six-month olds who were in turn dragging down the month-olds.

Drown them all I say... before their corrupt the newborns.

[Moksha]

The world needed to be cleansed of all those evil and iniquitous two-year-olds. Why - they were setting a horrible example for all those six-month olds who were in turn dragging down the month-olds.

They don't call them the terrible twos and sixes for nuthin'.

:)