Herbal Medicine and Alternative Therapies

[Bob_Blaylock]

“There is none so blind as he who will not see.”

I have yet to see where man-made drugs are a benefit.

You might as well claim that you've never seen any benefit to using an internal-combustion-engine-powered automobile for transportation, instead of a plain old-fashioned horse. The proof is all around you, but you refuse to see it.

Has far as for your grandfathers heart medicine, my mother ran out of hers and I was concerned about it, so I had her start taking cayanne pepper with lunch and dinner, and she has been great. Cayanne Pepper will actually strength your heart to help prevent any heart problems, and if by some chance she does her heart will be strong enough to recover quickly.

This is where your brand of quackery will kill people—substituting a fake treatment for a genuine treatment, for a genuine, life-threatening condition.

[ZenMormon]

If you can actually prove that there is any such thing as this “qi” of which you speak, then I know of someone who will give you a million dollars. You can't of course, because it's pure, unadulterated nonsense.

Qi, is been proven to exist. There have been countless studies done on Qi. Chinese have known about qi longer than China has been a country.

Herbal Medicine is older then Man made stuff, it also has been given scientific studies done.

Has Christ said, "If any man will do his will..." This is just has true with medicine and qi has it does about the gospel.

Let your friend who has a million dollars come on here and speak with me.

[ZenMormon]

This is where your brand of quackery will kill people—substituting a fake treatment for a genuine treatment, for a genuine, life-threatening condition.

If this is true, why is my mom healthier then she has been then when she was on her heart medicine?

Man made Medicine is not safe, 100,000's of people die each year from pharmaseticals. People don't die when using herbs in their proper usage. Doctor's medicines have built in Side-effects, Herbs only have allergic reactions. (big difference between the two.)

[brmecham]

Man made Medicine is not safe, 100,000's of people die each year from pharmaceuticals. People don't die when using herbs in their proper usage. Doctor's medicines have built in Side-effects, Herbs only have allergic reactions. (big difference between the two.)

I agree. Pharmaceutical medicine would be the rare exception for me.

I've personally experienced the benefits of herbs. I also know others who have used herbs and healthy living to cure cancer, liver / kidney / gall bladder problems, asthma, allergies, depression and more.

Some prefer man-made medicine...

I prefer the "excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases" (Alma 46:40)

[ZenMormon]

You might as well claim that you've never seen any benefit to using an internal-combustion-engine-powered automobile for transportation, instead of a plain old-fashioned horse. The proof is all around you, but you refuse to see it.

Comparing Herbal medicine and Man Made, to a ICEP automobile is illogical.

[lestertheemt]

I believe that individuals need to be well informed no matter which direction he/she chooses. Side effects can happen w/ both herbs and medication and the more you know the better off you are.

[Bob_Blaylock]

Qi, is been proven to exist. There have been countless studies done on Qi. Chinese have known about qi longer than China has been a country.

Herbal Medicine is older then Man made stuff, it also has been given scientific studies done.

Just because something has been “known” for a very long time, doesn't make it true.* The four-element theory, that holds all matter to be composed of fire, water, earth and air, was “known” for centuries, before we learned about atoms and molecules and the true composition of matter. People “knew” for centuries of years that the Earth was flat.* There are many things that were “known” for centuries, since ancient times, that, with modern science, we now know were false.

Can you produce even one credible, peer-reviewed, double-blind study that proves the existence of this “qi”? Of course not. There's no such thing as this “qi”. It's nothing more than an ancient superstition.

Has Christ said, "If any man will do his will..." This is just has true with medicine and qi has it does about the gospel.

I do not think that Christ ever said that engaging in fraud and quackery was consistent with doing his will.

Let your friend who has a million dollars come on here and speak with me.

If you thought you could prove this “qi”, ten surely it'd be worth your time to follow the link that I provided, to claim the million dollars for doing so.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Bob_Blaylock
A man without a forklift is nothing.

[Bob_Blaylock]

This is where your brand of quackery will kill people—substituting a fake treatment for a genuine treatment, for a genuine, life-threatening condition.

Man made Medicine is not safe, 100,000's of people die each year from pharmaseticals [sic]. People don't die when using herbs in their proper usage.

For as long as Mankind has existed, people have died of certain various diseases, including, among others, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and so on. They have died of these conditions even while making “proper usage” of your herbs.

While I don't deny that there is some limited value to herbal medicine, there has never been any credible evidence that it can effectively cure or treat diabetes, cancer, heart disease, or any of a host of other potentially-deadly conditions. These are real conditions, requiring real treatment.

Deny it if you will, but modern pharmaceuticals are developed, manufactured and tested under very strict scientific standards. A new drug doesn't hit the market without being solidly proven to be an effective and safe treatment for some medical condition.

It's not perfect, of course. Some people will have developed conditions that are beyond what can effectively be treated even with modern medicine. Some people will have adverse effects that will outweigh the benefit of the treatment. But on the whole, there are many, many people who are alive and healthy, who would not be so if not fort modern medicine; far more than you can truthfully claim with your herbs.

Doctor's medicines have built in Side-effects, Herbs only have allergic reactions. (big difference between the two.)

Not true. I know, for example, that some traditional herbs have now been proven to have harmful effects. Comfrey, for example, is now known to cause liver damage. Ephedra has been linked to heart damage and strokes. People have died from these.

The thing is, any drug (whether it is synthetic or derived from natural sources) that has the ability to have a significant positive effect on the body, also has the potential to cause an adverse effect as well.

Homeopathy has no potential for side effects, and is perfectly safe; but that's only because it has no ability to have any effect whatsoever, beyond the placebo effect.

At the end of the day, what you are doing is pushing fake treatment at people with real, life-threatening maladies; and advising them to eschew genuine appropriate treatments that might save their lives in favor of fake treatments that will not. This is dangerous and irresponsible, and in most cases, illegal. I helped put someone in jail for doing this, and I'd be glad to do the same for you.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Bob_Blaylock
A man without a forklift is nothing.

[beefche]

I've personally experienced the benefits of herbs. I also know others who have used herbs and healthy living to cure cancer, liver / kidney / gall bladder problems, asthma, allergies, depression and more.

Some prefer man-made medicine...

I prefer the "excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases" (Alma 46:40)

Really? Cure cancer, liver/kidney/gall bladder problems, etc? Then, why hasn't this been made well known at such renowned places at Cancer Treatment Centers of America – About Our Cancer Hospitals, American Cancer Society :: Information and Resources for Cancer: Breast, Colon, Prostate, Lung and Other Forms, Jude Hospital and other research/treatment centers? And please do not say the reason is "money." I do not believe that every single person in the research and medical fields are so evil as to place money over the life of a human being.

[ZenMormon]

I've never seen a westerner so close minded as you blaylock, here is a link to studies done. Not that it will help you. http://www.springforestqigong.com/medical_research.htm this are real doctors who have studied qi. I have only begun to study qi.

It's not comfrey that is deadly but a compound that is taken out of it called, "pyrrolizidine alkaloids" that are toxic. In minor doses such has found in a single comfrey plant is virtually harmless, it's when these alkaloids are taken out that they become toxic to the point of damaging the liver.

Again, Ephedrine Alkaloids is what is dangerous, the FDA has banned such things, but has not banned ephedra itself, it has many benefits including a weight loss herb.

If modern medicine is so safe, then how come with each new drug it has a list of side-effects, the FDA has approved such things. One of the most contravertial is Phen Fen, FDA approved it for usage, and in the commercials it also stated has a side-effect of DEATH. Do you call that safe, "NO"

Let's look at some man-made drugs: this is the one my mom was on for her heart condition, it's called, "Isosorbide mononitrate" Side effects are:fast, slow, pounding, or uneven heart rate;

feeling like you might pass out; trouble breathing; or worsening chest pain.

Tell me, if drugs are safe then how is it that when watching news you see commericials about lawsuits on a drug because of it's dangereous effects on the body.

Never has there been a case against a single herb because of it's properties.

I hate to sound like a free thinker in here, but drug companies are not into the business of curing people, their in business to make money. If they truly were into curing dis-eases then all diseases would be cured, but their into making money so they make drugs that help the symptoms not the dis-ease.

[ZenMormon]

Oh here's another lawsuit against an drug company Suffer Tendon Rupture or Tendonitis While on Antibiotic Levaquin?

Go figure

[brmecham]

Just because something has been “known” for a very long time, doesn't make it true...People “knew” for centuries of years that the Earth was flat.

Actually they didn't "know" the earth was flat they theorized.

There are thousands of years of experiential knowledge behind many herbs and their effects - this isn't just theory, but people have actually experienced healing.

Even the scriptures tell us that God gave us herbs that would cure diseases:

"the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases" (Alma 46:40)

While I don't deny that there is some limited value to herbal medicine, there has never been any credible evidence that it can effectively cure or treat diabetes, cancer, heart disease, or any of a host of other potentially-deadly conditions. These are real conditions, requiring real treatment.

And for your information. The people I know who have cured diabetes, cancer and other conditions have not done it with herbs alone, but also through a lifestyle change consistent with healthy living as outlined in the word of wisdom, and proper excercise, sunlight, sleep, etc. Edited September 8, 2009 by brmecham

[Bob_Blaylock]

If modern medicine is so safe, then how come with each new drug it has a list of side-effects, the FDA has approved such things.

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Tell me, if drugs are safe then how is it that when watching news you see commericials about lawsuits on a drug because of it's dangereous effects on the body.

If automobiles are so safe, then why are tens of thousands of Americans killed in automobile accidents every year? Perhaps we should go back to using horses instead (never mind that horses are much more dangerous than automobiles).

I hate to sound like a free thinker in here…

Don't worry. You're not sounding like a “free thinker” of any sort. You're sounding like a quack and a fraud who doesn't care who you harm as long as you can make money off of them.

…but drug companies are not into the business of curing people, their [sic] in business to make money.

…And so, by your own admission, are you. The difference is that the legitimate medical industries, including the pharmaceutical companies, are required to adhere to strict scientific and ethical standards, while you are not.

If they truly were into curing dis-eases then all diseases would be cured, but their [sic] into making money so they make drugs that help the symptoms not the dis-ease.

Right. And if the energy-based companies were really in the business of providing energy, we'd all have perpetual-motion machines to provide us with all the energy we needed for free, without consuming fossil fuels or other finite resources, and without producing any pollution.

[pam]

ZenMormon..I actually had a gastroenterologist recommend to me to seek herbal remedies for a condition I have. I have yet to do it..but there are even some doctors that see a benefit to herbal medicine.

[ZenMormon]

If automobiles are so safe, then why are tens of thousands of Americans killed in automobile accidents every year? Perhaps we should go back to using horses instead (never mind that horses are much more dangerous than automobiles).

Don't worry. You're not sounding like a “free thinker” of any sort. You're sounding like a quack and a fraud who doesn't care who you harm as long as you can make money off of them.

…And so, by your own admission, are you. The difference is that the legitimate medical industries, including the pharmaceutical companies, are required to adhere to strict scientific and ethical standards, while you are not.

Not true, I have been practicing herbal medicine since I was little, I was raised on it. and in order for me to practice in a store, I will be attending a 4 year school.

Right. And if the energy-based companies were really in the business of providing energy, we'd all have perpetual-motion machines to provide us with all the energy we needed for free, without consuming fossil fuels or other finite resources, and without producing any pollution.

First of all, your logic stinks what does automobiles and horses have to do with Herbs and Doctors drugs, NOTHING.

In my life I haven't seen anyone hurt by herbs, in fact I've seen people have more of a life with herbs then with drugs. And all my herbs don't come at a price, I give advice. And if I give someone a tincture, it's generally free.

I have studied herbs most of my life, so I have a basic knowledge, In order to feel right to work in a herb store, I have to go to a 4 year school to be able too. That includes 400 hours of clinical work, once I am done I have a lot of laws I have to obey.

If herbs are no good, then why did Joseph Smith and Brigham Young use them instead of Gentiles medicine? If you require proof, I'll be glad to provide it.

But since you won't believe anything I say will change your mind so please, don't respond. Your negative energy is quite depressing

[ZenMormon]

ZenMormon..I actually had a gastroenterologist recommend to me to seek herbal remedies for a condition I have. I have yet to do it..but there are even some doctors that see a benefit to herbal medicine.

Yes, Doctors are starting to see the true benefit of herbs, the ones' I've ran into are close-minded.

What condition do you have?

Maybe I or one of the others can help.

[pam]

I'll send you a pm.

[ZenMormon]

ok, works for me

[Gemma]

But since you won't believe anything I say will change your mind so please, don't respond. Your negative energy is quite depressing

Oh dear! ZenMormon, if you don't like people disagreeing with you maybe you shouldn't start a thread on a controversial subject in a public forum - just a thought!

[brmecham]

if you don't like people disagreeing with you maybe you shouldn't start a thread on a controversial subject in a public forum - just a thought!

I can't understand how something taught in the scriptures (that God gave us herbs for treating diseases) could be considered so controversial among latter-day saints.

The thread was started by ZenMormon for the purpose of discussing "Herbal Medicine and Alternative Therapies" not for people to hijack it with discussions of pharmaceutical medicine.

[Bob_Blaylock]

First of all, your logic stinks what does [sic] automobiles and horses have to do with Herbs and Doctors drugs, NOTHING.

Actually, that was YOUR logic. Since modern drugs sometimes cause adverse side effects, and even lasting harm, your logic is that we should not use them, instead using more primitive forms of drugs, that are actually less consistent, less effective, and less safe than modern drugs.

I was simply applying YOUR logic to automobiles vs. horses, to show how absurd it is.

In my life I haven't seen anyone hurt by herbs, in fact I've seen people have more of a life with herbs then with drugs. And all my herbs don't come at a price, I give advice. And if I give someone a tincture, it's generally free.

Herbs *ARE* drugs. At least any herbs that can have any effect, good or ill. Any chemical—whether it is synthesized in a laboratory, or contained in a natural plant that is ingested—that can alter the body's chemistry, is a drug.

And perhaps you haven't seen cases of people being harmed by herbs, but there are more than enough proven cases of such. Your choosing to deny them doesn't make them go away.

If herbs are no good, then why did Joseph Smith and Brigham Young use them instead of Gentiles medicine? If you require proof, I'll be glad to provide it.

In the 19th century, our state of knowledge in all forms of science, including medicine, was far less developed than it is now. Did Joseph Smith claim any medical credentials? I'm not aware that he did. He had opinions on the subject that were surely no more or less valid than different opinions held by others of his time.

In any event, I am not claiming that herbs are no good. I fully acknowledge the fact that some herbs have proven medical benefits.

What I dispute is your unwarranted disparagement of modern, scientifically-proven, evidence-based medicine, and your insistence that only your more primitive, less-proven version is valid.

[Bob_Blaylock]

I can't understand how something taught in the scriptures (that God gave us herbs for treating diseases) could be considered so controversial among latter-day saints.

I don't think anyone is disputing that. What is in dispute here is the complete rejection of modern science, and of modern evidence-based medicine.

From the D&C 93:36: “The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.”

Science, properly applied, is intelligence; it is truth and light. Our religion is one of intelligence and truth and light.

And science has taught us many great and wonderful things, about how our bodies work, what causes them to not work so well, and how to treat these causes. You and ZenMormon are stuck in the 19th century.

You can't cure cancer with 19th-century methods; but we have modern, scientific methods that sometimes can.

Look what happens when you try “natural” cancer treatments:

The thread was started by ZenMormon for the purpose of discussing "Herbal Medicine and Alternative Therapies" not for people to hijack it with discussions of pharmaceutical medicine.

It looks to me like he started this thread for the purpose of promoting his business.

[ZenMormon]

I am not promoting my business, I am simply try to start a thread where people can discuss the different type of alternative therapies and herbs that have shown to help people, not once have I mentioned my company.

There are more people every year that are seeking out a safe alterternative to Gentile Medicines, If someone disagrees that's their choice.

I have read the link you gave blaylock, I feel for the families that have been hurt by this "Black salve", The herbalists who gave those crossed the line of an herbalist, Herbalists do not diagnos medical problems, that is what happened, they thought things where cancerous when in actuallity they weren't, An herbalists main duty is to teach, nothing more. I have not put down doctors usefullness, just the pharmesuticuals they prescribe.

I'm sorry if you think I am promoting a business, it is not true. I believe that people should be able to use herbal medicine in placement of Gentile medicine, when I prescribe an herb, I try to find out what type of drugs they are on and an herb would give better results, I don't take on a doctors position. With the case of my mother the cayanne pepper has been better her then the drug. Since having her taken cayanne pepper, she has gone on walks that usually would have required her to use her heart medicine, but with the cayanne pepper she didn't need it because the cayanne pepper is actually starting to strengthen her heart. Even her doctor is impressed with it.

I will not stop dealing in herbs, or alternative therapies. I will continue to educate people of the benefits of such things. And God has my witness, I will continue to help those who are able to use them safely.

[brmecham]

Bob_Blaylock,

Your use of scare tactics is very sad.

I could also find all kinds of pictures and stories of tragedy and death caused by pharmaceutical medicines, but I won't.

Displaying that sort of pictures and associating it with 'herbs' is totally uncalled for.

I know dozens of people who use herbs on a regular basis and none have experienced negative results as this. Everyone I know that uses herbs is using the time tested safe herbs.

[john doe]

Boys, go to your own corners. If you can't discuss things rationally without going to extremes than this thread will end.