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Guest Utahrulzz
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Expectation for our nation in the near foreseeable future is the general public acceptance of this life style. As you stated, the church may have to change its tax status but I do see another push after this event with seeking a closure of all temples. Call it extremism but the pattern never ceases from the past. Leading back to the old story of the ‘Frog in a warming pot’, as there ultimate quest to rid the church all together or opposing the Savior’s kingdom.

I agree. It can never be said the law of the land cannot dictate how the temples operate, it already does in many respects. It is part of church rules that no person without a temple recommend can enter the temple. Well, this happens all the time because it's part of the law - do you really think most governments will allow the church to operate a public building in which no government officials can enter? It just happens at a time when no patrons are around to see them. It doesn't take much for government to change the law and the only way the church could stop same sex sealings happening is to close the temples in the area in which that law affects.

Edited by Mahone
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if the government said "if you are going to do marriages you have to do them for same sex couples just like everyone else" the church will simply stop doing marriages.... the law can not order the church to give same sex sealings anymore than they can order the church to give someone membership or forgive sins. that's not a legal matter. sealings and marriages are 2 different events. they are not the same thing and can easily be separated.

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I don't have any proof yet, otherwise I would call his Bishop. He talks about men a lot though in weird ways. He also talks about older women too which I find wrong. He has some issues and I'd like to help.

Proof? Are you trying to gather proof? And even if you did get this "proof" why on earth do you think it is your right to tell his bishop (which sounds as if it isn't even the same as yours)? How do you feel that telling his bishop is "helping"? BTW....did he ask for your help?

I think this kind of "help" is a recipe for disaster. Keep your hands and nose out of this.

Edited by Misshalfway
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Guest Utahrulzz

I just spoke to Thomas! I asked him if there wasn't something he needed to discuss with his Bishop, he said there is a matter that has been troubling him! Thank Goodness!

I asked him if he'd like me to go with him when he confesses, he said no, but at least he knows I'm there for him! My wife too!

Don't worry, we will get Thomas back on the path everyone!!!

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if the government said "if you are going to do marriages you have to do them for same sex couples just like everyone else" the church will simply stop doing marriages.... the law can not order the church to give same sex sealings anymore than they can order the church to give someone membership or forgive sins. that's not a legal matter. sealings and marriages are 2 different events. they are not the same thing and can easily be separated.

I wasn't suggesting the sealings would be classed as valid in the churches point of view. However there is nothing to say they cannot be forced by government to perform them, eternally valid or not. My point really was that temples are not immune to government rule by any means. They cannot change what you think or know at heart, but they can change what you physically do - if it ever got to this, I believe the church would close temples affected by these laws.

Edited by Mahone
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I just spoke to Thomas! I asked him if there wasn't something he needed to discuss with his Bishop, he said there is a matter that has been troubling him! Thank Goodness!

I asked him if he'd like me to go with him when he confesses, he said no, but at least he knows I'm there for him! My wife too!

Don't worry, we will get Thomas back on the path everyone!!!

I am sorry Utah. I generally try to be very supportive in my posts. But something about this bothers me to my very core. I suppose I am having trouble articulating what is exactly bothering me. Maybe it is because it feels like you are making a lot of assumptions. Perhaps it is the last bit about getting him back to the path.....like you have just donned your superman uniform and performed another good deed for the community...... something I am not sure he won't resent you for later.

Forgive me for my honesty. It's just that so many who struggle with SSA are turned off and even hurt by these well meaning attitudes. I guess if this person were very close to you and if I understood that you shared mutual respect and trust, I would feel differently. Your OP, however, sounds like this is more like a person you know and talk to sometimes.

I don't know. The whole thing just bothers me. BTW...did he confirm to you that the "thing on his mind" was SSA? I still strongly question if any of this is your business or your responsibility.

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if the government said "if you are going to do marriages you have to do them for same sex couples just like everyone else" the church will simply stop doing marriages.... the law can not order the church to give same sex sealings anymore than they can order the church to give someone membership or forgive sins. that's not a legal matter. sealings and marriages are 2 different events. they are not the same thing and can easily be separated.

Yet the law has ordered the church to stop doing polygamous sealings, even when the Church did not seek government recognition for those sealings.

And the Church--under extreme duress--complied.

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Yet the law has ordered the church to stop doing polygamous sealings, even when the Church did not seek government recognition for those sealings.

And the Church--under extreme duress--complied.

no it hasn't they are done all the time from what i understand. no living ppl are not in polygamous sealings (unless you count divorce and remarriages without sealing cancellations). think about it though if you sealed a living man to 2 living women one of the women would not be able to live with him as a wife. the law of chastity is very clear "leagly married" you can't be leagly married to 2 living women, thus you can't be sealed to them. it's a law of chastity issue not the law of the land telling god what to do.

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Doctrinally, you may be right (I'm not convinced; but I won't quibble at present).

But I'm not sure a civil court or a legislative body would find your argument persuasive. From a legal standpoint, the government can--and has--prohibited persons and organizations from solemnizing religious rites. Including, under some circumstances, LDS temple sealings.

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As for homosexuality not having any baring on church, my Bishop said told us in Priesthood meeting that if gay marriage becomes legal throughout the nation, it will only be a matter of time before the church is forced to allow it in our holy temples! That's why it was so important to stop it in California first!

Frequently hyperbole is used in politics. In my opinion we should keep Church hyperbole and political hyperbole separate.

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Frequently hyperbole is used in politics. In my opinion we should keep Church hyperbole and political hyperbole separate.

I tend to agree. There are lots of things the world does that are against our commandments. As long as the US maintains freedom of religion, then I think we can keep living in the world but not of the world. And we can keep voting according to our conscience as I think many are trying to do on both sides of this political issue. I am not convinced of the argument of the bishop mentioned in this thread. I honestly think its a little politically driven fear mongering.......not that I don't support the traditional marriage platform. I just happen to think that we need to not only listen to our leaders, but think and keep our feet on balanced ground at the same time.

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Guest Utahrulzz

I had a wonderful conversation with my Amigo Thomas last night. As it turns out he was having some serious issues he did need to discuss with Bishop. He will meet with the Stake President later this week to work out some of these issues.

Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers. I know through prayer we can overcome and Thomas does too!

Thank You - Peace be unto you!

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I just read this thread and I don´t like it all. Perhaps I am thinking this way because I am just a new member of the LDS, but it seems that you cannot trust even one person in your ward:

To read that a "friend" will go to the bishop behind someones back draws the same picture I got in the last few weeks.

I don´t have a problem like that person who could be gay, but I noticed, that there are many people in my ward and in other wards too, that you can just compare to evil snakes.

I know that the Book of Mormon is true and I will always join the sacrament meeting, but I am not able to stand the people anymore. (and I don´t need to, I will just hang out with my wonderful non LDS friends and if they will judge me someday, because I don´t get married in the temple I will ignore them)

It is just terrible how arrogant they act in church without any reason.

I don´t know why I am responding to this thread in such a rude way, but perhaps that thread was the one drop in a long line of events that makes me really angry.

I hope that nobody will feel insulted here, because that is not my intention.

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I hope you don't feel insulted Josh. Believe me, if it wasn't such a close friend I wouldn't be asking if I should notify his Bishop. If it was someone I knew in a more casual manner, I'd leave it alone. Thomas and I go back many many years, hence my deep concern.

Thank You!

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I am not insulted and I defnitely don´t see you as an evil snake. You were just concerned about your friend, but I was a little bit scared:

Sometimes I think that all the ward members are watching every step I do, just because

I am a new member.

And now I read your story. I am just scared of the idea that people could meet the bishop to talk about me, although I am acting just fine.

I mean: Some things in life are just private and if you don´t hurt other people everyone should leave you alone.

But of course I agree, that everything that has to do with the "gay-topic" is against the law of chastity.

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Well I think that the Bishop is one who always keeps a secret, so I wouldn't worry too much. They are usually very discreet with any confidential information they hear. Our Bishop won't even talk about confidential matters in PEC or Ward Council. He keeps it all to himself. I'm sure other bishops are the same.

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I just read this thread and I don´t like it all.

You and lots of other people josh. It just isn't right, and is sticking one's nose in business where it doesn't belong. To help, love, and serve is one thing. To think that 'forced' repentance is useful is just wrong.
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Well I think that the Bishop is one who always keeps a secret, so I wouldn't worry too much. They are usually very discreet with any confidential information they hear. Our Bishop won't even talk about confidential matters in PEC or Ward Council. He keeps it all to himself. I'm sure other bishops are the same.

Clearly it isn't the bishop who is publicizing this story in online forums and asking if he should report someone to a bishop without his knowledge. How would you feel if you were struggling with this issue and your supposed best friend was speculating about your most personal struggles (not to mention disclosing your name) in an online forum and considering going around you to report you before the issues were even confirmed?

We can and should help people come to Christ. But there is a definitely a right and a wrong way to do that. Sometimes that means an invitation to talk to a priesthood leader is appropriate, but the way the OP was worded.....the way the OP assumes talking to a priesthood leader just magically makes everything better just helps me feel that perhaps the OP is if not completely misdirected, at least very naive. Going to a priesthood leader over SSA, even under the best circumstances, is the beginning of a long hard road most likely filled with lots of sorrows and hard fought victories. IMO this is good intensions gone wrong even if the outcome appears fine now. I would hope that others would proceed in greater wisdom than this. Perhaps this Thomas person may have made it to the bishop on his own and now secret horror that "people know".

Josh...I think you make a valid point. Sometimes in church culture we do spend more time worried about what others are doing and how they are doing it. There is a fine line between serving others and overstepping our bounds. Membership in the church doesn't mean people become perfect and we all have to deal with each others weaknesses as we try to serve together. There are so many ways people can misstep as Satan is always trying to blind us using our weaknesses, good intensions, and even strengths against us. And not even the best amongst us are immune.

You just keep doing your thing wherever you might be in your journey and let others move in their own. Coming to Christ is a process.....a long and sometimes gnarly one that is driven by personal responsibility and agency. God knows this. Sometimes we as human children miss it. And that, in the grand scope of things, is why we need the gospel of JC in the first place.

And just as a side note......the church has a lot of love in it but they are still learning and struggling to know how to approach SSA. Then you add a lay untrained ministry and people who have a wide range of attitudes and strong emotions about the problem and you have a recipe for painful struggle that sometimes ends very badly.

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