Why is the Lord so detached from our world?


jeff_hawkins
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G-d is in control. Many of us misjudge the L-rd’s works because we see all things from a mortal perspective. We do not understand that Satan appears to have the upper hand in mortality but that Satan is overcome and defeated in the resurrection. The hope of Latter-Day Saints of Christ by covenant is not in this life but in the resurrection.

Be assured G-d and his Saints are invested in this life and stand firm against the forces of evil and as Jesus laid down his life in sacrifice so will many of his Saints and so shall many innocent in testimony against Satan and his followers – but all will be made fresh and new in the resurrection.

The Traveler

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I haven't read thru the whole thread just a few of the posts. The answer to why is there so much evil in the world is Judgment Day is coming. Everyone who is accountable will stand before Him or His representatives to account for their lives. All those wish to abuse their authority and commit wicked, merciless acts will answer to the LORD and will pay justice for their crimes.
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Only read the first post. Just wanted to say that we all have our agency. I remember reading in the Book of Mormon where many women and children were being burnt alive. And the question was asked why God would not intervene. Surely he has the power to, but in the end, He will not stop someone from exercising their agency, now matter how atrocious their deeds.

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Remember a whole bunch of souls followed Lucifer because they thought his plan was better probably because "evil" and free agency were not in the equation of salvation. Salvation would be automatic. Happiness (imagined) would have been automatic. Knowing the true order of progression, Jesus's plan was chosen because we would have to use free agency for our better good. Unfortunately, that means people will choose evil deeds. Did God know this? Of course. Does that mean He is cold? No, because of two things. One: those who are treated bad because of how people unjustly use their free agency WILL receive their reward in heaven. Two: Sifting out evil! Those who choose bad will have their place if they do not repent.

Imagine if God chose Lucifer's plan? If everyone received salvation automatically and went to the Celestial kingdom automatically, I'm sure no one would know anybody's true intentions!! That's because we are individual intelligences with individual personalities. We needed to be tested. There had to be sifting. I'm sure God was sad knowing this because that meant he would lose souls. But, He would know who was on his side. The first big sifting was done with the war in heaven. The next: our lives here on earth. What do we do with our free agency?

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What about Alma the Younger, the Lord intervened when he was causing trouble and being wicked.

It seems that the occasions in which there is celestial intervention is picked and chosen, is not common, but it does occur, and it confuses me how that all fits into the free agency definition, when there have been instances of intervention.

Another one is when Laman and Lemuel were beating Nephi with a rod. They might have beaten him to death, who's to say, but there was an intervention. Yes, the intervention was for a noble cause, but then is it sound to say that the course of a person's free agency can be altered anytime it is a noble cause? This does not seem to be consistent and balanced.

There have been instances where God or an angel have intervened when wickedness was being committed, and free agency being practiced, and there is prophecy that a similar intervention will occur in the future, when the Mt. Olives will be split, and those pursuing the Jews will be smitten.

So how is agency really free, but molded and controlled when necessary, without any say or decision by the owner of that agency?

(I am not condoning sin in the least, or saying that God is not just, but am trying to better understand what is going on)

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What about Alma the Younger, the Lord intervened when he was causing trouble and being wicked.

It seems that the occasions in which there is celestial intervention is picked and chosen, is not common, but it does occur, and it confuses me how that all fits into the free agency definition, when there have been instances of intervention.

Another one is when Laman and Lemuel were beating Nephi with a rod. They might have beaten him to death, who's to say, but there was an intervention. Yes, the intervention was for a noble cause, but then is it sound to say that the course of a person's free agency can be altered anytime it is a noble cause? This does not seem to be consistent and balanced.

There have been instances where God or an angel have intervened when wickedness was being committed, and free agency being practiced, and there is prophecy that a similar intervention will occur in the future, when the Mt. Olives will be split, and those pursuing the Jews will be smitten.

So how is agency really free, but molded and controlled when necessary, without any say or decision by the owner of that agency?

(I am not condoning sin in the least, or saying that God is not just, but am trying to better understand what is going on)

Just wondering - Do you understand any differences between agency, free agency and choice?

The Traveler

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Jeff - who caused the Lord to intervene?

That's a good question. With Alma, it was his father. There were others, when their families were being ravaged by the Lamanites, the Lord intervened because of the pleading and prayers in their behalf.

I even think the Israelites were freed from the Egyptians because of their pleadings and prayers.

So maybe that is the key, that there needs to be a certain amount of sincere pleading and prayer. The Lord will intervene on our behalf when we show that we care enough to turn to HIM for help, and put our trust in HIM. This kind of works with a condition. The scripture that says something like "if you heed not my commandments, you have no promise." Although, like was previously mentioned in this thread, only the Lord truly knows the heart and mind of a person, and thus a wicked person's prayer may still be answered, with a change of heart, and sincere, honest pleading.

So how much pleading and prayer is required for the Lord or an angel to intervene? Is it specific to the situation, the individual, or something else?

Edited by jeff_hawkins
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The best answer to your last question I would state from Elder Bruce R. McConkie.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained that as our needs vary, so does the intensity of our prayers, and he referred to the Savior in the Garden of Gethsemane: 'And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.’ (Luke 22:44.)

“Now here is a marvelous thing,” continued Elder McConkie. “Note it well. The Son of God ‘prayed more earnestly’! He who did all things well … teaching us, his brethren, that all prayers, his included, are not alike, and that a greater need calls forth more earnest and faith-filled pleadings before the throne of him to whom the prayers of the saints are a sweet savor.” (Ensign, Jan. 1976, p. 8.)

What are keys given here by the example of the Savior prayer who was pleading before His FATHER?

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It seems that the occasions in which there is celestial intervention is picked and chosen, is not common, but it does occur, and it confuses me how that all fits into the free agency definition, when there have been instances of intervention.

You are trying to figure out the ways of Heavenly Father. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and His ways are higher than our ways. I will repeat what I previously stated. Judgment Day is coming. Everyone who is accountable will stand before Him or His representatives to account for their lives. All who wish to live in wickedness will pay justice.

That may seem like too simple of an answer but there is great truth in it. Read the many scriptures on Judgment Day and ponder them in your heart.

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I think its all how you look at it.

The Daily paper screamed the headlines: CRASH KILLS 3; NO SURVIVORS OF MOUNTAIN TRAGEDY. And thousands of voices joined in chorus: “Why did the Lord let this terrible thing happen?”

Two automobiles crashed one went through a red light and six people were killed. “Why would God not prevent this?”

Why should the young mother die so young? Why should her eight children be left motherless? Why did not the Lord heal her of her malady?

A young man died in the mission field and people critically question, “Why did not the Lord protect this youth while he was doing proselyting work?”

May I ask some questions?

Was it the Lord who directed the plane into the mountain to snuff out the lives of its occupants or were there mechanical faults or human error?

Was our Father in Heaven responsible for the collision of the cars and took six people into eternity or was it the error of the driver who broke the rules?

Did the Lord cause the man to die, or was the death of the missionary untimely? Would it have been better to have occurred years earlier or later? Answer, if you can.

Now a final question. Could the Lord have prevented there tragedies’? The answer is, YES. The Lord is omnipotent with all power to control our lives, save us pain, prevent all accidents, drive all planes and cars, feed us, protect us, save us from labor, effort, sickness, even from death.

But is that what you want? Would you shield your children from disappointments, temptations, sorrows, suffering?

The basic gospel law is free agency. To force us to be careful or righteous would be to nullify that fundamental law, and growth would be impossible.

Is there not wisdom in His giving us trials that we might rise above them, responsibilities that we might achieve, work to harden our muscles, sorrows to try our souls? Are we not permitted temptations to test our strength, sickness that we might learn patience, death that me might be immortal and glorified’?

Tragedy or Destiny

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I am LDS, and I have served an LDS mission. I am active, and have served in many callings. I currently hold an active temple recommend, and am worthy to have it.

However, I do not understand everything, especially how detached the Lord seems to be from the lives of the majority of the world.

Statistically and historically, the Lord is very unlikely to intervene and save someone, righteous or wicked, from harm, treachery, horror, torture, abuse, rape, murder, etc.

How many people living in the world today dread their fathers coming home, knowing they will be beaten, molested, abused, maybe even killed. And they pray and pray, and yet still the fists land just as hard.

Where is the intervention of God in this?

I met a lady on my mission who had grown up in El Salvador during some rough times in the 70's and 80's. She was the sole survivor of her village. Guerrilla soldiers invaded her village, raped and tortured the women and children, then lined up everyone from the village on a bridge, tied their hands behind their back, and began to shoot them, one by one. This lady couldn't wait to be shot, and so she jumped from the bridge.

She experienced what she called a miracle then, the soldiers shot at her, and the bullets cut through the rope around her wrists, and she was able to escape. She hid in the jungle for around a week, and was able to eventually escape to America.

However, she lives with the horror of what happened, and the nightmares of what happened to her personally. She can't afford more than living in a run-down apartment, because she has to pay for so much mental therapy. She said that she can't go to church, she can't forgive God for not intervening when little children were raped and tortured in the mud and dirt of her village.

You don't have to look far to see the crime that goes on each day. In Salt Lake City, where the prophets and apostles live, there are numerous horrible crimes, gang problems, rape, murder, child/spouse abuse, drugs, theft, adultery, embezzlement, etc.

If where the prophets and apostles live is such a mess, how can there be any hope for the rest of the world?!! What kind of message is that sending to the rest of world. Where is the beacon of hope, the sanctuary from filth? It is not found in this world, there is minimal celestial intervention.

I think everyone is missing the point of our life here. Why would god give us free will and then manipulate everything we decide to do if he didn't agree with it. Lets look at it another way I know mormons like to believe in an anthropomorphic god that has human views and emotions etc. but the reality is he is not anthropomorphic and does not judge us in this sense of the term. Is there divine intervention? Maybe I haven't seen it. The tradition of christianity I come from teaches one to reject any visions or revelations as false as a fail safe believing that its better to reject a divine event rather than accept one from satan. Reality is anyone in this day and age who has a divine event and doesn't stop by the old cat scan first is just deluded. God does not manipulate mortal lives or events. Things that happen happen because people are horrible to each other. Heck we cant even agree how to believe in god without starting wars and killing those that don't share our point of view. And we do this in the name of god. If he were an anthropomorphic being he would cry himself to sleep at night and contemplate suicide over all this.

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Reality is anyone in this day and age who has a divine event and doesn't stop by the old cat scan first is just deluded. God does not manipulate mortal lives or events. Things that happen happen because people are horrible to each other.

Seems to pretty much cover it IMO..

"And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me." -- Joseph Smith

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From my understanding, agency, free agency, and choice are all and one the same.

Agency is the legal power or authority to represent a person. Free agency is an oxymoron and choice is a knowledgeable selection consisting of at least two possibilities.

The Traveler

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Lets look at it another way I know mormons like to believe in an anthropomorphic god that has human views and emotions etc. but the reality is he is not anthropomorphic and does not judge us in this sense of the term. Is there divine intervention?

Oh - that's the reality?

Being real and all, I'm sure you can point to some real evidence - can't you?

No?

How then could it be reality when you have a grand total of zero evidence?

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If God helped everyone all the time, then the test that is our Earth life would be far too easy. It is sad and frustrating when bad things happen, but even when they're doing wrong, the people involved in these things are learning (even if it's just learning what NOT to do.)

Starving infants learn nothing.. this is an age old question.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?”

-Epicurus

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Oh - that's the reality?

Being real and all, I'm sure you can point to some real evidence - can't you?

No?

How then could it be reality when you have a grand total of zero evidence?

On the flip side of this do you have any evidence to the contrary?

No?

Here is the reality. No can prove or disprove a god in any form.

Edited by Lstinthwrld
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