Tithing: Pre-tax or After tax? Gross v. Net?

[Traveler]

If there is anyone having problems calculating tithing may I suggest my CD titled “Tithing Strategies for the Wealthy”.

The Traveler

[joheri]

I don't know how it is done in the US, but in Norway some employees have a car as part of their income - a business car. The government has decided one has to pay for that one way or another, so if one has such a car, a certain amount of money is added to your pay check and taxed. (The amount is based on miles driven from home to one's work place and the amount payed for the car by the company one works for) In that way one is really paying for the car through taxes, but it's usually cheaper than paying for all running expenses of the car.

I have been thinking about this and wonder, should one pay thithing on the amount that is added to your pay check? Or, should you ask your employer what the costs of the car really is each month and tithe from that?

[john doe]

As has been stated numerous times before, how you figure it is purely between you and God.

[Misshalfway]

yes these are all good answers...until the Prophet tells me pay it on my net, I'll keep paying it on my gross plus a little more...it is just like buying a good fire insurance policy in that respect.

Sorry. I don't mean to pick on you cougar. It's just this idea of buying fire insurance. Aren't we to give without thinking of receiving anything else in return? Isn't giving of our blessings to others something we do because we can and because we care? Isn't that missing the whole point of the obedience in the first place?

Edited September 17, 2009 by Misshalfway

[john doe]

I'm surprised no one has asked how you pay tithing on food stamps. Is it gross or net? Will the church take food stamps as tithing payment?

Oh! Oh! Oh! I have one! What if I go hunting and shoot a deer? Do I have to get a value estimate from a butcher on its worth so I can pay tithing on it? And if I do pay tithing on it, what happens if my freezer fails and some of the meat gets spoiled? Can I get an adjustment from the bishop for that?

How do I figure the value of the produce from my garden? If I trade my carrots to my neighbor for some potatoes, do I have to pay tithing on the increase of potatoes?

If I trade auto repair work to another neighbor for some carpentry work, do I pay tithing on the gross retail value of the improvements, or do I pay on the net value after materials? Or do I pay on the added value to the home? What if my neighbor gets more value from the trade? Does he have to pay tithing on the difference? This is all so confusing!

[threepercent]

how is it possible to pay 20% on something that is DEFINED as 10%?

[MormonMama]

how is it possible to pay 20% on something that is DEFINED as 10%?

I would call that double-tithe.

[Saguaro]

As has been stated numerous times before, how you figure it is purely between you and God.

Exactly, I too am surprised at all the discussion going on and how each person thinks they have the right answer.

I don't understand why some say they pay gross instead of net "just in case". Just in case of what? If someone feels that between him and God it is OK for him to pay net, then he is following the law. When he arrives in heaven I doubt God will say "Sorry, you should have paid on gross, you're going to burn a little not go to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom."

I once knew a guy who supervised a chain of family run restaurants. He was allowed to eat lunch for free while he was working and would pay tithing on the value of the food that he ate. To me, that was a little extreme, but for him it was the right thing to do, and that's all that matters.

[cougarfan]

Sorry. I don't mean to pick on you cougar. It's just this idea of buying fire insurance. Aren't we to give without thinking of receiving anything else in return? Isn't giving of our blessings to others something we do because we can and because we care? Isn't that missing the whole point of the obedience in the first place?

Well the D&C says "he that is tithed shall not burn." My seminary teacher used to explain it as like buying fire insurance. I thought obedience was following our leaders and the scriptures. If I just continue to give 12% of my gross to the church, I should expect a blessing in return, the D&C also says there is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven upon with all blessings our predicated, i.e, obedience to the law that gives the blessings. Hence, pay tithing, don't burn. Pay tithing, windows of heaven open.

[cougarfan]

how is it possible to pay 20% on something that is DEFINED as 10%?

I don't think tithing was ever defined as 10%. In the old testament it is 1/10 of certain produce and such. And then there is a tithe of a tithe and so forth if you read Levitcus and other OT books. If you didn't grow crops you didn't pay any tithing. To think that it was a blanket 1/10 of everything is not scriptural.

In modern times the D&C says that tithing is giving all at first (like consecration) and then "AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN TITHED" it is 1/10 of your increase.

The scripture hasn't changed, we are just not living it any more.

[cougarfan]

I would call that double-tithe.

Read the Old Testament. There were tithes on tithes. It could add up to 20-30%.

[Just_A_Guy]

I once knew a guy who supervised a chain of family run restaurants. He was allowed to eat lunch for free while he was working and would pay tithing on the value of the food that he ate. To me, that was a little extreme, but for him it was the right thing to do, and that's all that matters.

FWIW (which probably isn't much) - technically, that kind of thing is reportable as income on your tax returns.

I don't think tithing was ever defined as 10%.

Without quibbling about the idea of tithes upon tithes (which I haven't researched), it appears that the Hebrew term in the OT used for "tithing" (and the Greek equivalents as used in the NT), by definition, meant one-tenth.

[joheri]

To all of you trying to cut off arguments and other more or less good points: This is in fact a discussion forum. It's in the word, Hello!

All threads could easily be cut off by simply stating it is a matter between you and God. However, where would be the discussion??

[Moksha]

What has happened to that old pioneering spirit of giving 110%? This strong pledge is frequently made by the Elders when speaking of basketball. Why not tithing that is so much more important.

[pam]

I think it just all comes down to: spirit of the law or letter of the law?

[MormonMama]

Read the Old Testament. There were tithes on tithes. It could add up to 20-30%.

I've read it honey, three times through. I was being tongue-in-cheeck. Hence the winky smiley.

...it appears that the Hebrew term in the OT used for "tithing" (and the Greek equivalents as used in the NT), by definition, meant one-tenth.

That is correct. "Tithe" means "tenth", so yes, it has been defined.

What has happened to that old pioneering spirit of giving 110%?

While I understand the point you're trying to make, it's kind of hard to apply that to tithing, since it's not really possible to give 110% of what you have in terms of money.

However, the spirit with which we give should be done with 110% or more, I agree.

[Lorenzo]

I don't think tithing was ever defined as 10%. In the old testament it is 1/10 of certain produce and such. And then there is a tithe of a tithe and so forth if you read Levitcus and other OT books. If you didn't grow crops you didn't pay any tithing. To think that it was a blanket 1/10 of everything is not scriptural.

In modern times the D&C says that tithing is giving all at first (like consecration) and then "AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN TITHED" it is 1/10 of your increase.

The scripture hasn't changed, we are just not living it any more.

That's pretty interesting! I didn't remember any of that. After we have been tithed, we are to pay (donate) 10% of our increase. I guess that would mean when you first join the church, you should give one-tenth of everything you own (excluding, perhaps, wives and children), and after that, from then on when you make a profit, you should also give 10% of that. Is that what you're saying??

[john doe]

To all of you trying to cut off arguments and other more or less good points: This is in fact a discussion forum. It's in the word, Hello!

All threads could easily be cut off by simply stating it is a matter between you and God. However, where would be the discussion??

Because it is between you and God. When people come in here being all self-righteous about how they figure their tithing, then it turns into a game of one-upmanship. Pulling the 'I pay 12% tithing to get more blessings' card is akin to saying that those who pay 10% just aren't as righteous. It also reminds me of the story in the Bible about those who pray loudly in public just to be seen having received their reward now, so don't expect any more in the afterlife. Tithing is defined as 10% of your increase, how you define that increase is between you and God. If you think you're not paying enough at 10%, then feel free to give more in offerings, but don't go around bragging about it either.

[Lorenzo]

Tithing is defined as 10% of your increase, how you define that increase is between you and God. If you think you're not paying enough at 10%, then feel free to give more in offerings, but don't go around bragging about it either.

I feel pretty much the same. I have to "unbrag" because I simply cannot pay 10% of what little I get. Sometimes I know it's less than 10%, even as low as 5%, but that's all I can afford at the time, seriously. If the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of the law, and our eternal reward relates to our spirit more than to our finances, then I'm not worried. Fvie percent is okay. God already owns everything anyway in a way. We are merely his stewards, and when we "go on to our reward" everything reverts back to him. So tithes and offerings are more for our sake, as symbols of our spirit. If we love God, we will give something. It may not be all we have. Who can do that anyway? No one except the destitute. It may not be as much as ten percent. The very fact of giving, though, I think, is what really matters. If someone gave only one percent - or in the Bible where someone gave "two copper coins" the blessing is as great (in some cases greater) for that person than for some well-heeled heel who gives an exact 10.00000% tithing. That's just my opinion. If I didn't have it, I'd probably go crazy trying to make ends meet.

[Generally_Me]

Thank you for that Gnat. It makes me a feel a lot better. My family has been having some financial hardship, and paying what we could when we could. It got worse, but now is getting better (cross fingers). I hope make extra payments to catch up by the end of the year, but it would not be feasible if I payed 10% of gross; net is feasible, but just; but for me to pay gross I would be living off the Bishop's storehouse and having no electricity (and hence no way to cook the food from the storehouse). That to me is defeating the purpose of tithing, as I would be taking from the church while giving to it.

I like to think that God understands when we are trying and paying something, and not out buying new designer clothes with the monies that are owed in tithe.

[cougarfan]

That's pretty interesting! I didn't remember any of that. After we have been tithed, we are to pay (donate) 10% of our increase. I guess that would mean when you first join the church, you should give one-tenth of everything you own (excluding, perhaps, wives and children), and after that, from then on when you make a profit, you should also give 10% of that. Is that what you're saying??

Actually when you first join you give everything, then after that the 10% increase kicks in. Go back and carefully read the D&C section everyone relies on for the 10% of your increase or interest (Section 42? 58? can't remember the exact number... I don't have my scriptures with me). My point is that Tithing=Law of Consecration. That is what they called it back then in Joseph Smith's era. Tithing WAS the law of consecration. Nothing has changed in the scriptures. We just don't live it anymore, hence all this talk about 10% of gross/net is irrelevant. We are not living the law anyway.

[cougarfan]

I've read it honey, three times through. I was being tongue-in-cheeck. Hence the winky smiley.

Sorry if I sounded snippy. I don't mean to be that way. I love all of you. I was just putting up a quick reply. I am not being critical of ANY of you. I mean that sincerely.

[MormonMama]

No worries Cougarfan. :)

[cougarfan]

I feel pretty much the same. I have to "unbrag" because I simply cannot pay 10% of what little I get. Sometimes I know it's less than 10%, even as low as 5%, but that's all I can afford at the time, seriously. If the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of the law, and our eternal reward relates to our spirit more than to our finances, then I'm not worried. Fvie percent is okay. God already owns everything anyway in a way. We are merely his stewards, and when we "go on to our reward" everything reverts back to him. So tithes and offerings are more for our sake, as symbols of our spirit. If we love God, we will give something. It may not be all we have. Who can do that anyway? No one except the destitute. It may not be as much as ten percent. The very fact of giving, though, I think, is what really matters. If someone gave only one percent - or in the Bible where someone gave "two copper coins" the blessing is as great (in some cases greater) for that person than for some well-heeled heel who gives an exact 10.00000% tithing. That's just my opinion. If I didn't have it, I'd probably go crazy trying to make ends meet.

I think there is a whole ton of unnecessary guilt that is placed on people over tithing. Another point I think should be thrown in is the Malachi quote: "Will a man rob God?" If you go back to the beginning of the book and read it in CONTEXT it is an indictment of the way the priests were handling the tithes brought in. That scripture should not be used to lay guilt on members. It is an indictment of the Jewish priests/leaders more than anything else.

[MormonMama]

I agree that there is too much guilt about tithing.

However, I have to testify that when I have paid a FULL tithe (and that amount is between me and the Lord), I have truly received blessings that I just don't receive when I don't. At times when I think I just can't afford to pay a full tithe but do it anyway, money has come from miraculous sources, or money I thought I "had to have" is suddenly no longer needed.

Just to throw this out there for anyone who may benefit from it:

I KNOW how hard it is to pay a full tithing, believe me! I have almost always struggled for money. I have filed for bankruptcy twice in my life. My hours have just been cut almost in half at my new job. Yet we have committed to paying a full tithing each paycheck, and we have seen the blessings.

When I have not paid a full tithing, I have actually been worse off money-wise. No matter how hard it seems, I testify that if you pay a full tithing you WILL see unexpected blessings.

And remember too, if you're a full tithe-payer you are entitled to aid from the church if needed. If it's a choice between tithing and food, ask your bishop for a food order. If it's a choice between tithing and utilities, take your bills to the bishop. I have some bills that the church can't pay (credit cards, for example), but utility bills, mortgage bills, etc. can be paid by the church if you need the help, and will free up money you need for the bills they can't pay.

That is what fast offerings are used for, to help those in need. Don't be ashamed to ask for help if you need it. It's better than denying yourself blessings by not paying a full tithing.