Tithing: Pre-tax or After tax? Gross v. Net?

[john doe]

Thank you for that Gnat. It makes me a feel a lot better. My family has been having some financial hardship, and paying what we could when we could. It got worse, but now is getting better (cross fingers). I hope make extra payments to catch up by the end of the year, but it would not be feasible if I payed 10% of gross; net is feasible, but just; but for me to pay gross I would be living off the Bishop's storehouse and having no electricity (and hence no way to cook the food from the storehouse). That to me is defeating the purpose of tithing, as I would be taking from the church while giving to it.

I like to think that God understands when we are trying and paying something, and not out buying new designer clothes with the monies that are owed in tithe.

I would be careful in that. There is no shame in paying a full tithe and then asking the bishop for assistance to help cover expenses. Consult with your bishop, but generally the counsel is to pay your tithing and then ask for assistance if you fall short with bills. Being a full tithe payer does many things, besides fulfilling one of the requirements for a temple recommend, it also makes you eligible for the blessings attached to the commandment. The Lord says 'prove me herewith' in reference to paying a full tithe, and sometimes we just need to make that leap of faith and see what happens when we put our trust in the Lord.

[cougarfan]

Because it is between you and God. When people come in here being all self-righteous about how they figure their tithing, then it turns into a game of one-upmanship. Pulling the 'I pay 12% tithing to get more blessings' card is akin to saying that those who pay 10% just aren't as righteous. It also reminds me of the story in the Bible about those who pray loudly in public just to be seen having received their reward now, so don't expect any more in the afterlife. Tithing is defined as 10% of your increase, how you define that increase is between you and God. If you think you're not paying enough at 10%, then feel free to give more in offerings, but don't go around bragging about it either.

Amen brother. But didn't you find the 12% comment a little bit amusing? It kind of got the debate focused. I'm in total agreement with you BTW.

And the lady I knew who paid 20% and fasted every Sunday was a spiritual giant. But she was also a bit of a nutjob IMO.

[lilered]

The Law We Must Live to Achieve the Celestial Kingdom

President Ezra Taft Benson said, “The law of consecration is a law for an inheritance in the celestial kingdom. God, the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and all holy beings abide by this law. It is an eternal law.” People whose lives are consecrated to the Lord “set their hearts on righteousness and having actually put first in their lives the things of God’s kingdom.”

The Church Welfare Plan describes a consecrated person as one who does not seek for worldly riches; who esteems his brother as himself; who, through tithes and offerings, helps to build up the Kingdom of God by caring for the temporal needs of those General Authorities whom God has called into full-time service; who makes his worldly goods available, over and above his family’s necessities, for the Lord’s work; and who, with his time, talents and means, takes care of the temporally and spiritually poor. Quoting the Church Welfare Plan, Bruce R. McConkie wrote,

“The practice of the law of consecration is inextricably intertwined with the development of the attributes of godliness in this life and the attainment of eternal life in the world to come. ‘The law pertaining to material aid is so formulated that the carrying of it out necessitates practices calculated to root out human traits not in harmony with requirements for living in the celestial kingdom and replacing those inharmonious traits with the virtues and character essential to life in that abode.’ (Bowen, The Church Welfare Plan, p. 13).”

bold added

[Generally_Me]

I would be careful in that. There is no shame in paying a full tithe and then asking the bishop for assistance to help cover expenses. Consult with your bishop, but generally the counsel is to pay your tithing and then ask for assistance if you fall short with bills. Being a full tithe payer does many things, besides fulfilling one of the requirements for a temple recommend, it also makes you eligible for the blessings attached to the commandment. The Lord says 'prove me herewith' in reference to paying a full tithe, and sometimes we just need to make that leap of faith and see what happens when we put our trust in the Lord.

We have spoken to the bishop, he was the one who asked if it would be possible to catch up by the end of the year. He then said, so long as we are caught up by the end of the year, he sees no problem. Hubby has also donated time to the church farm.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said anything. It's just disheartening to have people say things like "Pay 12%" "Pay on gross" "Pay on your job benefits" etc. when I know we are struggling and doing what we can, and I would go without those "benefits" if I had the choice, in order to pay towards a household expense.

Like I said, we're doing better now, I just felt some guilt in coming here and seeing everyone's answers. I should have followed my initial instinct and stayed out of it.

[MormonMama]

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said anything. It's just disheartening to have people say things like "Pay 12%" "Pay on gross" "Pay on your job benefits" etc. when I know we are struggling and doing what we can, and I would go without those "benefits" if I had the choice, in order to pay towards a household expense.

Like I said, we're doing better now, I just felt some guilt in coming here and seeing everyone's answers. I should have followed my initial instinct and stayed out of it.

As long as your bishop is on board with your situation, then I wouldn't worry about what anyone else says. He knows you and your situation far better than any of us do.

[lilered]

We have spoken to the bishop, he was the one who asked if it would be possible to catch up by the end of the year. He then said, so long as we are caught up by the end of the year, he sees no problem. Hubby has also donated time to the church farm.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said anything. It's just disheartening to have people say things like "Pay 12%" "Pay on gross" "Pay on your job benefits" etc. when I know we are struggling and doing what we can, and I would go without those "benefits" if I had the choice, in order to pay towards a household expense.

Like I said, we're doing better now, I just felt some guilt in coming here and seeing everyone's answers. I should have followed my initial instinct and stayed out of it.

Please don't feel that way. Remember tithing is between you and the Lord. If your doing the best that you can, then so be it. Sometimes on a forum such as this it is difficult and really impossible to judge the posters true intentions by just reading a few lines they have posted. As in General Life, there are always a few who believe they are ready for transfiguration but simply have been allowed to tarry a bit longer just as examples.

Kinda of legends in their own mind.

[Lorenzo]

Actually when you first join you give everything, then after that the 10% increase kicks in. Go back and carefully read the D&C section everyone relies on for the 10% of your increase or interest (Section 42? 58? can't remember the exact number... I don't have my scriptures with me). My point is that Tithing=Law of Consecration. That is what they called it back then in Joseph Smith's era. Tithing WAS the law of consecration. Nothing has changed in the scriptures. We just don't live it anymore, hence all this talk about 10% of gross/net is irrelevant. We are not living the law anyway.

Well, yes, of course, I sort of agree. We should be giving everything to the Lord, through the Church. But if we did, we would starve to death. There has to be a place where the Principle of Tithing and the Law of Self-Preservation meet in harmony. In the future, under some form of United Order, I can imagine people really will give everything to the church. Maybe some do now already, like the Prophet and Apostles, and then whatever they need is given to them, be it food or clothes. That seems a better way than what I see in some churches, where pastors buy themselves pretty expensive suits, hobnob with elite rich folks in the community (but only meet the poor and down-and-out in private in their office), and have open-ended credit cards and all kinds of perks, and their flock doesn't even know it most of the time.

Until the more perfect order is established under perfect Heavenly Law, we have to keep some for ourselves. The Lord won't judge us for that. Later we can give more, if we have it.

[lilered]

Well, yes, of course, I sort of agree. We should be giving everything to the Lord, through the Church. But if we did, we would starve to death. There has to be a place where the Principle of Tithing and the Law of Self-Preservation meet in harmony. --------

Until the more perfect order is established under perfect Heavenly Law, we have to keep some for ourselves. The Lord won't judge us for that. Later we can give more, if we have it.

CnatStrainer.I have posted again for reference:

The Church Welfare Plan describes a consecrated person as one who does not seek for worldly riches; who esteems his brother as himself; who, through tithes and offerings, helps to build up the Kingdom of God by caring for the temporal needs of those General Authorities whom God has called into full-time service; who makes his worldly goods available, over and above his family’s necessities, for the Lord’s work; and who, with his time, talents and means, takes care of the temporally and spiritually poor. Quoting the Church Welfare Plan, Bruce R. McConkie wrote,

Please note the part about "over and above his family's necessities". The Lord doesn't expect us to foresake our families in lieu of assisting the poor, needy, etc.

However, remember the Law of Sacrifice as well as Gods blessings for keeping our covenants. We also can give of our talents, time, etc. to meet requirements of being a Concencrated Person.

If you have been through the Temple, think about certain covenants you make. :)

[LDSVALLEY]

The Gospel Principle book simply says 10% of your increase.

I knew a member who's family paid it on everything. Estimated value of gifts received, gross on income, rebates, stuff they were given, food they grew in a garden etc.

Bishops have different view as well, the one who got me paying tithing ( I joined refusing to pay it, don't ask how I was able, the missionaries told me they told someone who prayed and said I didn't have enough faith yet but would so I could be baptized. Might have been a Mission President or Bishop or Zone Leader it was the old system.) His view was to pay on money you received from work you did. He did not include money from the government for basic living such as unemployment income or welfare.

I've had other Bishops who followed different advice. Since I teach GP class I tell converts to understand that paying tithing is giving some of what the Lord has given you back to him to help further is work and provide for his children in need. I give them examples of options people follow then tell them to think about what they feel they should pay to consider it a full tithe then pray to the Lord. When he is happy with it he will let you know by the spirit. I also point out the Bishop asks if you are a full tithe payer but does not break down your income and a list of rules etc. If the Lord and you are happy with what you are paying and your paid in full by your formula then you answer yes.

Personally I pay on Net Income, I exclude GST rebate cheques and Child Tax Credit as they are money coming back from taxes I've paid on my net income. I also don't calculate to the penny but pay a set amount per pay as there is minimal change in mine.

My wife as she is self employed we calculate hers based on her Gross income as we only figure out her net at the end of the year. And her extra covers any oversights I've missed as well as most of the income tax return I receive. Our children pay on their allowance which really I have already paid on as well but it teaches them to pay tithing as well.

We prayed about it the Lord is happy with that, it works for us, all is good.

[WindRiver]

...

Edited April 20, 2010 by Gwen
per request

[MobyMule]

It amazes me that people get hung up so much on the details. Tithing is between the individual and the Lord. If they have the right attitude and have what they pay confirmed to them by the spirit as a full tithe then they can honestly tell they Bishop yes when they are asked. Simple as that. People stress to much on the paticulars/phyical stuff instead of living by the spirit of the law. You do that it will fall into place.

[Vort]

Tithing is a tenth of your annual increase. How you define that it between you and God, and possibly your bishop, if you want to involve him. No one on this board has the authority to tell you anything different, including me.

That said: If your attitude is, "Lord, I want to pay tithing. Tithing is a tenth of my annual increase, which I understand to include A, B, and C, but not X, Y, and Z. If this is not acceptable to thee, make it known to me in my mind or heart or otherwise, and I will gladly pay in whatever manner thou seest fit", then you will be fine.

On the other hand, if your attitude is, "Well, I have to pay tithing. Darn. Let's get creative...how much can I exempt from my so-called 'income' so I don't have to count it as 'increase'? How about if I don't count taxes? How about if I don't count child support? Alimony? Money I spend on gasoline and car maintenance (hey, those are business expenses! I have to drive to work!)? Money spent on hotels and food? That's not really increase, after all", then I suspect your tithing-payment efforts (such as they are) will be mostly futile.

[CarstenBN]

Local leaders have told me pre-tax. My parents also. It seems to make sense, since that truly is 10% of the reward we get from doing our job: Tax, then, is in a sense a separate bill. I've felt good about doing it this way.

[pam]

This subject can be debated till the end of time because it's based on someone's perspective and circumstances and understanding. The important thing is..it's between you and the Lord.

Also if you have questions, discuss with your Bishop and follow what his suggestion is. He holds stewardship over you and if he gives you the wrong answer, he will answer for it as that steward.

Edited October 2, 2009 by pam

[belledame2]

I feel tithing is between you and the Lord. I like what joseph Smith said, "I teach them correct princopals AND THEY GOVERN THEMSELVES." It is not meet that we should be commanded in all things.

[Lorenzo]

This subject can be debated till the end of time because it's based on someone's perspective and circumstances and understanding. The important thing is..it's between you and the Lord.

Also if you have questions discuss with your Bishop and follow what his suggestion is. He holds stewardship over you and if he gives you the wrong answer, he will answer for it as that steward.

While everyone must agree with this, and I sure do 100 percent, it still seems to me that it would be way helpful if the Prophet could give clearer guidance on such an important principle of salvation. Nobody's going to get to the Celestial Kingdom if they cheat the Lord. While everyone may be doing the best they can figure out, in calculating the most righteous tithe, that's all it is - "the best we can can figure out". I'm imiperfect, so I know my figures are probably imperfect, too. Maybe even my actual understanding of tithing leaves something to be desire. I will pray the prophet gets revelation for us so there will no longer be doubt or disagreement on this most important principle of the gospel.

[beefche]

Gnat, I think you're talking about pennies, when the law of tithing is about faith. It goes back to that scripture that talks about being commanded in all things. The Lord has given us a brain and has given us a way to communicate with Him. The law of tithing is just one thing that requires us to use those.

[john doe]

While everyone must agree with this, and I sure do 100 percent, it still seems to me that it would be way helpful if the Prophet could give clearer guidance on such an important principle of salvation. Nobody's going to get to the Celestial Kingdom if they cheat the Lord. While everyone may be doing the best they can figure out, in calculating the most righteous tithe, that's all it is - "the best we can can figure out". I'm imiperfect, so I know my figures are probably imperfect, too. Maybe even my actual understanding of tithing leaves something to be desire. I will pray the prophet gets revelation for us so there will no longer be doubt or disagreement on this most important principle of the gospel.

Maybe there's a lesson in that...... perhaps something about the Spirit of the Law? I think there may be something in the scriptures about someone who needs to be commanded in all things.

[MormonMama]

We are commanded to do the best we can with the knowledge that we have. If we are truly making an effort to pay what we believe is an honest tithe, we will be rewarded for that. God will not say, "Oh, you were off by a few dollars each paycheck. No Celestial Kingdom for you!"

As someone said previously, tithing has a lot more to do with what spirit we pay it in. Are we paying only out of a sense of obligation, to avoid getting punished? Or are we paying because we truly love the Lord and want to give back a portion of what is rightfully his, that he has given us? The spirit in which we pay is vastly more important than the amount we pay.

[MrNirom]

Common sense dictates. If a company pays you $50,000 for doing your job.. did you not just make $50,000? What Governments decided to take from you (tax) is up to them.. You still made $50,000. The Lord requires 10%. If you own a company.. and your company made a million dollars... but you paid yourself $50,000... then your income is $50,000. That is the amount of money that you gave yourself. Now the Governments might tax you on a different amount. If next year.. your company only makes $50,000... but you took $100,000 because of the surplus from the previous year.. then you made $100,000 regardless of what the Governments might tax you.

If you got paid $50,000.. and the Governments then taxed you $20,000.. and then later on.. gave you $10,000 back.. you would not pay tithing on the $10,000 given back to you. You paid your tithing on the $50,000 you made. Whatever the governments DECIDE to charge you or rebate you... has nothing to do with tithing. Now.. if the Governments tax you nothing.. but give you a $10,000 rebate.. then your increase is $10,000. If you plant a row of corn.. and you grow 100 ears of corn.. you give 10 to the Lord. Hopefully you save a couple ears to be used for seeds the next year. Everything on and in this earth belongs to God. You take nothing with you when you die. So if you had nothing.. and you get something.. you have more than what you had... that is increase. If you had no bicycle.. and now you do because someone gave it to you.. your increase is one bicycle. If you refuse the bicycle.. then you have no increase. If you borrow a dollar from a friend.. and then give it back to them... you had NO increase. If you borrow $320,000 for a home.. and you pay back the $320,000.. you have no increase. If you buy a house for $320,000.. and then turn around and sell it for $400,000... you have an increase of $80,000. If you buy a home for $320,000... spend $70,000 on remodeling... and then sell it for $400,000... you have an increase of $10,000.

Pay tithing on what was paid to you. And God forbid if you should give him more. Tithing is and always will be between you and the Lord. He knows your heart. If you are using your head to figure out how to pay him less.. there is your heart.

Before becoming a member of the Church.. I gave 10% of my money to whomever... it did not matter.. just as long as I did not keep it. That was the Lord's money and I was not going to spend it in any way that benefited me or my family.

Edited October 4, 2009 by MrNirom
Additional explanations

[dazed-and-confused]

I do so agree with you MrNimrod......I just dont understand why there is even a debate or any question about this, it isnt rocket science.

If there is a question in your heart about what to do, go the distance, IMHO. If you dont, thats up to you, and yes, you CAN look for support from others to validate your decision, and HF will know thats exactly what you've done.

Decide for yourself, and consider being careful about influencing others to your side, just to make yourself feel better.

[ComeComeYeSaints]

I do not understand why tithing seems to be so complicated for

some members of the Church. It does not matter what other people's opinions are

on how one should pay their tithing.

The only opionon that matters is God's opinion. And God has made it very clear on how

He wants his people to pay their tithing, and it is called Doctrine and Convenants Sec 119.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the

bishop of my church in Zion,

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for

the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all

their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy

priesthood, saith the Lord.

5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of a

Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall

not be found worthy to abide among you.

6 And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this

law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept

thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land

of a Zion unto you.

7 And this shall be an sample unto all the stakes of Zion. Even so. Amen.

If you are not paying tithing according to God's standing law then you are paying your

tithing incorrectly. It is that simple.

Or maybe I am the one not understanding Sec 119? Maybe tithing is about net vs gross

and not on what I recevie. Maybe you can pay your tithing any time you want and not

annually? When people read D&C Sec 119, do the words have some double meaning that

I do not know about?

Edited October 4, 2009 by ComeComeYeSaints

[Moksha]

Tithing is a tenth of your annual increase.

My waistline has increased over the last ten years. Wish I could tithe that too. I'd even give in gross.

[Lorenzo]

Tithing - if it's not about pennies, if it's about the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law, why do so many bishops require a "full tithe" from members before they will initiate the process to grant them a temple recommend? I have known many people, who for various reasons did not pay an exactly 10% tithing. Every single one, of recent times, was denied either a temple recommend or the renewal of a recommend they already had.

It doesn't do anybody any good if it is the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law that matters, if from the bishop on up, it is the letter of the law by which we are judged, either as righteous and "honest" or as people who do not pay a full tithe ("dishonest").

[beefche]

Gnat, have you been in a tithing settlement with a bishop? He doesn't ask for your gross/net income and the amount you pay. He asks you if you are a full tithe payer. You are the one to decide if you are full tithe payer.