Micromanaging the Saints

[hordak]

So i notice allot of the threads here stem from the desire to clarify some church rule. Things like Prom dresses, white shirts, beards, long hair, green tea etc. grow into threads 15 pages long and 4 months old while clarification on church doctrine averages 3-4 pages.[disclaimer, i didn't actually average it:)]

The theological ,philosophical discussions are becoming more involved (see why do you think it is impossible) however "Clarify rule x" seems to take the cake as far as participation is concerned.

Now i must admit i am guilty as all others and usually put my say so in on these types of threads. I believe they get so long because they are not "set in stone" so every opinion (whether we like to admit it or not;) ) is as valid as the next. It does seem quite civil,most the time, but i have seen it become "clash of the GA quotes" on occasion, but more so on other boards. So i understand why we feel the need to participate in these threads.

What i don't understand is the need to start them? I suppose for the the new member they want to do it "right". But I think it is important to let them know there is Mormon Doctrine,(I. E. The God head is 3 separate personages) , Mormon culture,(I.E. A clean shaven face is "the right way to look", Heard a HP spreading that one:eek:) and the 2 are not always the same.

The greatest thing about LDS doctrine is the teaching that God still speaks to man. Personal Revelation is scriptural doctrine.

So to all the "newbies" who want clarification on a rule or custom i say ask God.

I would assume the more in tune you are by asking about the smaller stuff, the more prepared you would be for the larger stuff. In all honesty we might be doing them a disfavor by telling them "this is how it should been done" instead allowing them that opportunity to receive revelation.

( I suddenly have a new found understanding of some of Hemi Dakotas "obscure" answers)

So hows about we all swear off answering theses types of threads for a month.( Don't think we came make it longer.)

We fight the urge to give input and allow the poster the opportunity to receive revelation.(Obviously we can answer to tell them to pray,and to "let us know how it went")

Anyone with me?

"I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.” Joseph Smith.

[Misshalfway]

Thanks Hordak. I think you make an excellent point. I will say however that sometimes wisdom on all these "shoulds" is a scarce comodity on mormon culture and I think there are many of the faithful who don't understand this fully and perhaps live in the safety of the micromanaged condition. I think that in God's earthly kingdom is there is room for a range of reactions to commandments. I suppose that is why I love that last JSmith quote you added. Perhaps it is the temptation for all of us to get others to see and do as we see and do. I don't know. Perhaps that is the more pressing issue. How do we learn to restrain ourselves in those circumstances? I will in addition, that I don't know if I want to stiffle the conversation completely as some of these convos have pushed me to question my own taken for granted beliefs and to also try to absorb the wisdom of those who know it better than I do.

[MrsAri]

There is a clear distinction between gospel principles and member teachings.

[BenRaines]

Somewhere I heard about being taught correct principles and then being allowed to govern ourselves. Not scripture but a good quote.

Ben Raines

[hordak]

There is a clear distinction between gospel principles and member teachings.

all i have to say is

Join Date: Sep 2009

stay a while

Actually i agree. but the longer your here the more often you will see the lines get blurred.

[MrsAri]

all i have to say is stay a while

Actually i agree. but the longer your here the more often you will see the lines get blurred.

I'm pretty stubborn, ya know.

[BenRaines]

Yes Hordak, not her first rodeo for sure. :)

Ben Raines

[Just_A_Guy]

So hows about we all swear off answering theses types of threads for a month.( Don't think we came make it longer.)

We fight the urge to give input and allow the poster the opportunity to receive revelation.(Obviously we can answer to tell them to pray,and to "let us know how it went")

Anyone with me?

For me, though, part of the revelation process is "studying it out in [my] mind", which in turn entails finding out how other people have interpreted and applied a principle.

I don't see any harm in offering opinions on such threads, so long as those opinions are clearly identified as such.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Somewhere I heard about being taught correct principles and then being allowed to govern ourselves. Not scripture but a good quote.

Ben Raines

It was when Joseph Smith was asked by a newspaper reporter how he governed such a vast group of people with so little effort. His reply was "I don't. I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

When we know the truth, and the spirit is with us, we will already know what the minutae of the church rules are.

What I find is people seeking justification for bending the edges of the rules just a little. For example, the issue of prom dresses...I've never had a problem with prom dresses in sacrament meeting...as long as they conform to well-established standards of dress for the youth of the church. The standards are not new, nor have they drastically changed for some time now...people ought to already know whether or not it's a problem.

I could go on, but instead let me relay a story I read by Boyd K. Packer. When he was a bishop, there was a couple in his congregation. They were very active, and had very strong testimonies. At one point, however, their activity dropped off, then they stopped going to church altogether. He called them into his office one evening to try to discover the problem.

It turned out they were attempting to re-design the front of their house, and they couldn't decide between two ideas. They made it a matter of prayer. After getting no answer for some time, their testimony suffered, and they eventually lost faith. Boyd K. Packer said he struggled for some time to help them with the problem without offending them.

Finally he asked them. "Has it occured to either of you that God just doesn't care what your house looks Like?" He then went on to explain how just as Jesus was never concerned with the outward appearance, our homes are a concern to God only in how spiritual and peaceful they are inside.

to close with a quote from the D&C "He that must needs be commanded in all things is a slothful, and therfore, not a wise servant, wherefore he looseth his reward."

We have brains, and God expects us to use them. All this "clarify this rule, or clarify that rule" are, as I said above, merely attempts at finding exactly how close we can get to the line without crossing over. If we understand the Gospel properly, we should be trying to stay as far away from the line as possible.

[BenRaines]

Nice post RippleCutBudda. At times people are conflicted when scriptures teach that we should pray concerning even the small things in our lives. Some forget that we must first do our part. Think it out, make a decision, we must decided what to do, then seek confirmation. Do not ask an open question like "What should I do?" but say "This is what I have decided, is this your in accordance to your wishes?"

Ben Raines

[lilered]

I understand your point, however part of the learning and understanding process is listening to several points of view (diversity), studying, and meditating, along with prayer a particuliar principle. What I think often happens, is that during the posting process, many of us tend to drift further from doctorinal teachings, or scripture, and respond based on personal expierence or personal views. But in fact they alsve a responsiblity to study for themselves before making their mind up. Keep in mind that our own church teachs us to listen to the spirit when discerning truth.

Edited September 15, 2009 by lilered

[Justice]

I don't get too involved, mostly, in the rule threads. However, I love to discuss the Gospel and will get involved in the Gospel or Scripture topics. It's just fun to discuss and hear other's input. I learn a wealth of information just by listening to others.

[Moksha]

But I think it is important to let them know there is Mormon Doctrine, (I. E. The God head is 3 separate personages) and Mormon culture, (I.E. A clean shaven face is "the right way to look") and the two are not always the same.

This is an excellent point. Especially for those of us who experience the culture but are not of the culture, and that's like fer sure! (Although I enjoy green Jell-O smothered in fry sauce about the same as any Utahan).

Generally, the only times I wish to be micromanaged is during surgery or when getting a massage.

[Guest Godless]

But I think it is important to let them know there is Mormon Doctrine,(I. E. The God head is 3 separate personages) , Mormon culture,(I.E. A clean shaven face is "the right way to look", Heard a HP spreading that one:eek:) and the 2 are not always the same.

That discussion made me giggle inside.

[tefor]

I've learned not to pay too much attention to Mormon culture, which in any case is largely middle-class American culture mingled with scripture. At this stage, my main concern is nurturing my relationship with my Heavenly Father and with my Savior.

[Ezequiel]

AH!!! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was so tired of these threads. I dont even get why they are in this section of the forums - they dont belong here. They are discussed more than they should be and generally lead into nothing.

I agree. Lets please not dwell on those topics!

[Snow]

So to all the "newbies" who want clarification on a rule or custom i say ask God.

If God won't tell the prophet whether or not it is proper for, say, a woman to have pierced ears, why do you think that God would tell someone else?

[Snow]

AH!!! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was so tired of these threads. I dont even get why they are in this section of the forums - they dont belong here. They are discussed more than they should be and generally lead into nothing.

I agree. Lets please not dwell on those topics!

Not so tired - obviously - that you don't spend your precious time reading such threads.

Seriously - how tired of them could you be if you read and post in them?

[beefche]

Not so tired - obviously - that you don't spend your precious time reading such threads.

Seriously - how tired of them could you be if you read and post in them?

Because he didn't know what the threads are about...then he got sucked in. Don't we all?

[Snow]

Because he didn't know what the threads are about...then he got sucked in. Don't we all?

And couldn't draw away until he posted apparently.

... the ever elusive art of self-mastery.

[Moksha]

Hey, I found this news article on Runtu's Rincon today, that may apply to the OP topic. Here is a portion of it:

Rexburg, Idaho — Speaking to students at Brigham Young University, Idaho, LDS church president Thomas S. Monson emphasized the need for modesty and spiritual cleanliness, two virtues he said had nearly been lost in today’s so-called modern world...

...He reminded those in attendance of the inspired counsel of President Gordon B. Hinckley in pleading with the fair daughters of Zion to display only one earring on each ear. “Somwhere in the heavens, President Hinckley is smiling in the knowledge that so many have taken his words to heart.” But, President Monson intoned gravely, “There is much room for improvement, particularly among you priesthood holders. Are you living up to the Oath and Covenant of the priesthood? Are you conducting yourself with the modesty and dignity that befits someone with your holy calling?”

He then spoke of a troubling trend among the brethren of the church. “I have spent many nights on my knees, praying for guidance as to how I can help the brethren overcome a serious problem. I speak, of course, of the unkempt and often askew collars of our dress shirts. Many are the times when I’ve sat on the stand in a priesthood meeting and found my spirit troubled by crooked collars. Often the collar doesn’t even cover the tie wrapped around the neck. And, difficult as it may be to believe, some brethren cannot even be troubled to button the top button of their shirts. Surely the Spirit is grieved when the brethren of the Holy Priesthood take such a casual attitude toward their responsibilities.”

In His wisdom, the prophet said, the Lord has provided a way for His sons to reach their full potential: tab collars. “It is but a small thing the Lord requires: merely two buttons, one on each side of the collar. Keeping the tabs buttoned will ensure that you are neat and clean both inwardly and outwardly. My beloved brethren, I plead with all the force of a loving heart that you will return to your homes and make immediate and prayerful changes to your wardrobe.”

...Student reaction was immediate. “I went home and threw out all my old, unworthy white shirts,” said Gareth Jensen, a junior from Tempe, Arizona. “I have decided to choose the right, and if that means buying tab collared shirts, I will not shirk.”

Tyler Roarke of Redding, California, expressed his desire to follow the prophet with “exactness”: “The prophet said we should get tabs on either side of the collar, but when I got my new shirts home, I noticed they had a third button in the back of the collar. I’m a little worried that I may be looking beyond the mark.”

Apostle David Bednar hailed the response of the students. “These young men and women know what is important in life, and they are a shining example to the world. One young woman I spoke with broke off her engagement because the young man said he didn’t know what the big deal was about tab collars. I’m sure she will be glad for the eternities that she saw the true measure of his faithfulness before she became unequally yoked with him.”

Runtu of course labled it a parody, but can we be certain in these troubled times? Is it not best to err on the side of buttons and tabs?

:)

[Snow]

Hey, I found this news article on Runtu's Rincon today, that may apply to the OP topic. Here is a portion of it:

Runtu of course labled it a parody,

:)

Don't tell utahrulzz, he'd be terribly disappointed.

[Justice]

If God won't tell the prophet whether or not it is proper for, say, a woman to have pierced ears, why do you think that God would tell someone else?

This is a good question, and worth pondering over.

I think there are many things that won't be revealed through the prophet for the entire church, but can be for any individual who ventures to ask in faith. There are many things that people can pray for that will help guide them personally, that may not be common knowledge and taught by the GAs. This is why we are taught to pray for ourselves, study for ourselves, and be involved in personal service to others. Our relationship with God is personal, and so are many revelations.

[Maxel]

If a prophet speaks, do it.

If the exact guidelines of the commandment are hazy, seek clarifying information (including discussion with other faithful members of the Lord's church).

Most importantly, obey all the commandments (both direct and indirect) of the prophets- wisdom comes from action; understanding comes from doing; and testimony comes from a trial of faith.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Maxel

[Hemidakota]

Somewhere I heard about being taught correct principles and then being allowed to govern ourselves. Not scripture but a good quote.

Ben Raines

Elder Boyd K. Packer stated this also in his talk -

It is important that Church members understand the spirit and purpose of the change. We are following the admonition of the Prophet JosephSmith: "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves" (Messages of the First Presidency, comp. James R. Clark, 6 vols. [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-75], 3:54). We should not, according to the scriptures, need to be commanded in all things (see D&C 58:26). Address given at Member Finances Fireside broadcast 18 February 1990.

President Harold B. Lee in his talked use the same phrase -

The greatest danger we face today is the danger of having our teachers make intellectual or academic interpretations of gospel principles. We must never forget what the Prophet Joseph Smith answered one who questioned as to how he "governed" the members of the Church. His answer was, "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves." (Quoted by John Taylor, in Millennial Star 13 [15 November 1851]: 339.) We must emphasize the importance of those words correct principles. If we do not, how can our people "govern themselves"? (68-13)

Edited September 18, 2009 by Hemidakota