Celestial Kingdom

[Justice]

I know he has been banned and I shouldn't quote from his words, however, I see a great importance to post a comment for anyone who happens to read this thread and is genuinely curious, and since you didn't remove his words, I see no harm for me to repeat them.

In researching the facts, I don't need to read the Book of Mormon to acknowledge them, nor do I need to pray for guidance when I know facts are facts, and they are in fact true.

This statement is proposterous. To know if the Book of Mormon is true one doesn't need to read it. And, to know the truth one doesn't need to pray for discernment, they can decide for themselves.

If you find yourself with either of these thoughts, you should look how silly they sound when written down.

[bmy-]

The real history huh? According to.....? Sources please.

Let's not act like there haven't been shady dealings, mistakes made, etc. Those are recognized and should simply be admitted. Nobody is perfect and no religion is free from that "anti" stuff. I'm absolutely fine with someone pointing out legitimate criticisms.. as long as they hold their own religion or belief system to the same standard.

[Moksha]

When I hear people arguing against genuine history, I sense apologetics is in the air.

[HEthePrimate]

I think the three kingdoms, and the three degrees of glory w/i the CK, are figurative, not to be taken literally. I believe God wants to give all of his children as many blessings as they'll accept, and that maybe all people won't want the exact same things in the next life, and so there will be a wide, wide range of "rewards" for people. Perhaps what the prophets are trying to tell us is that the traditional, mainstream Christian dualistic heaven/hell model is false, too either/or and absolutist. The notion of many degrees of glory breaks that mold and opens up a lot of possibilities (not to mention being far more merciful than the heaven/hell model).

Peace,

HEP

[Maxel]

When I hear people arguing against genuine history, I sense apologetics is in the air.

"Genuine history" doesn't involve endlessly spinning facts and completely ignoring opposing evidence to come to a foregone conclusion. One may argue that apologists do this- but the critics do, as well.

[rameumptom]

So you're saying Swedenborg had visions by divine intervention?

We believe there are two types of prophets: those who receive visions of the future, and those who also hold the priesthood authority of God. One prepares people for the Terrestrial Kingdom, and the other prepares them for the Celestial Kingdom.

Swedenborg was the first type. Alma 29:8 tells us that God gives to all nations and peoples the amount of light and truth they are willing and able to receive. Swedenborg kept his mind open to the things of God, and had many truths revealed to him. But the restoration of all things did not occur through him.

[rameumptom]

I think the three kingdoms, and the three degrees of glory w/i the CK, are figurative, not to be taken literally. I believe God wants to give all of his children as many blessings as they'll accept, and that maybe all people won't want the exact same things in the next life, and so there will be a wide, wide range of "rewards" for people. Perhaps what the prophets are trying to tell us is that the traditional, mainstream Christian dualistic heaven/hell model is false, too either/or and absolutist. The notion of many degrees of glory breaks that mold and opens up a lot of possibilities (not to mention being far more merciful than the heaven/hell model).

Peace,

HEP

Not only LDS, but early Jewish and Christian writings also denote a physical division in the heavens. In the Ascension of Isaiah, the prophet is led through the various levels of heaven, seeing the differing glories of the angels therein. He later sees Christ descend to earth via these heavens. At each level, Jesus empties himself of glory, so that he is of the same brilliance as those in that level.

I see a division in the kingdoms, however I also see that those in higher kingdoms may visit those in the lower realms by first emptying themselves of their glory. You'll note in D&C 76 it states that those in the lower kingdoms are ministered to by those in the higher kingdoms: IOW, those in the lower kingdoms cannot ascend higher. Why? Because they cannot stand the heat/glory. Alma 12 and Mormon 9 both tell us that they cannot stand in the presence of God in his fullness of glory - they are miserable there.

[Hemidakota]

(If you have evidence to the contrary, you shouldn't keep it secret.)

In this world of constant change and uncertainty, who, really, can be "really sure" of anything. Yet, if one were to hold to the iron rod of truth as presented represented by the Lord's Anointed of these latter days, then one is safe in feeling more confident in that belief than people outside the Gospel who have no prophet or apostles to guide them.(*)

Spiritual Conception and Birth in the heavens are

as Natural - and the Same -

as Physical Conception and Birth on the earth

"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p.115.

"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" Apostle Bruce R. McConie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp.546-47.

"And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, ... Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man" ibid., p.742.

"Will the resurrection return you a mere female acquaintance that is not to be the wife of your bosom in eternity? No; God forbid; but it will restore you the wife of your bosom, immortalized, who shall bear children from your own loins in all the worlds to come, and that without pain or sorrow in travail. This, sir, was couched in the promise of Abraham; this makes the promise great." Apostolic Historian B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, Vol.2, p.276.

“Each God, through his wife or wives, raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters…each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever. As soon as each God has begotten many millions of male and female spirits, and his Heavenly inheritance becomes too small, to comfortably accommodate his great family, he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world… where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones…. The inhabitants of each world are required to reverence, adore, and worship their own personal father who dwells in the Heaven which they formerly inhabited…If we admit that one personage was the Father of all this great family and that they were all born of the same Mother, the period of time intervening between the birth of the oldest and the youngest spirit must have been immense. If we suppose, as an average, that only one year intervened between each birth, then it would have required over one hundred thousand million of years for the same Mother to have given birth to this vast family…

Therefore, a Father… could increase his kingdoms with his own children, in a hundred fold ratio above that of another who had only secured to himself one wife. As yet, we have only spoken of the hundred fold ratio as applied to his own children; but now let us endeavor to form some faint idea of the multiplied increase of worlds peopled by his grandchildren, over which he, of course, would hold authority and dominion as the Grand Patriarch of the endless generations of his posterity. …the one-hundredth generation would people more worlds than could be expressed by raising one million to the ninety-ninth power.” Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, March 1853, pp. 37-39

However, if anyone else wants to be "really sure" how the Lord manages his generations and eternal lives, they should feel free to ask him personally. Perhaps to please them, he will give them an answer more in keeping with their personal predispositions and private preferences, than he has given through his anointed prophets, seers, revelators and apostles.

If I am reading this right, these are not spirit parents at all as you mentioned. These are immortal beings and are called GOD(s). Perhaps, this is a word play of what you are trying to convey vice spirit parents.

Thing to remember, non-immortal beings (spirits) ‘CANNOT, WILL NOT HAVE, DO NOT HAVE’ the ability to give birth to spirit children or immortal beings; nor have the honor to give birth at all. They are not married in the spirit world until they meet the highest order of celestial laws. Neither GOD, will waver from this fact. HE (not belittle our Heavenly Parents) is not the author of celestial laws but an enforcer of such to HIS/HER creation. There is no place in this spec called a universe, where there is no Heavenly Parents (GODs), there are Heavenly Parents in every place within this spec called a Universe. If this is the case, keeping it simply, then we both can agree, our Heavenly Parents are indeed - IMMORTAL BEINGS - and have immortal children. Not only have the ability to have immortal beings, listening to what was given Eve as a curse by the FATHER, our FATHER is author our creation from a lesser kingdom and was given HIS/HER image.

I noticed your intent here is to ask GOD for a personal witness…my friend, this is truly needed and required to understand how the universe was created, how worlds are created, the purpose of this universe, what is on the outside of this universe, and our divine purpose within this realm and what is next beyond this realm to come. Some may be given the exactness of the location where our beloved Heavenly Parents do reside.

Again, word play maybe an issue here in conveying truths.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

To know if the Book of Mormon is true one doesn't need to read it. And, to know the truth one doesn't need to pray for discernment, they can decide for themselves.

Justice, you are absolutely right…

Edited September 24, 2009 by Hemidakota

[bytor2112]

Let's not act like there haven't been shady dealings, mistakes made, etc. Those are recognized and should simply be admitted. Nobody is perfect and no religion is free from that "anti" stuff. I'm absolutely fine with someone pointing out legitimate criticisms.. as long as they hold their own religion or belief system to the same standard.

I couldn't agree more BMY....but that wasn't thews game.

[Lorenzo]

If I am reading this right, these are not spirit parents at all as you mentioned. These are immortal beings and are called GOD(s). Perhaps, this is a word play of what you are trying to convey vice spirit parents.

"Because we are the spiritual spirit children of our heavenly parents ..." - Gospel Principles, chapter 2, Our Heavenly Family.

"Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become Gods like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation." - Gospel Principles, Chapter 47, Exaltation.

"This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund) when, in speaking of pre-existence and the origin of man, they said that 'man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father,' that man is the 'offspring of celestial parentage,' and that 'all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.'" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 516

"As shown in this chapter, our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principles, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood. In such a condition, he and our mother in heaven were empowered to give birth to spirit children whose potential was equal to that of their heavenly parents. We are those spirit children." - Achieving a Celestial Marriage p 132)

"...all had a previous existence, thousands of years ago, in the heavens, in the presence of God" Journal of Discourses vol. 1 p. 62.

"...before men and women are born on earth as babies, their spirits are adult size in heaven. When they are born, their Spirits are compressed, which causes a loss in memory.” - Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses vol.16 p.333f

"Our Father begot all the spirits that were before any tabernacle was made." - Brigham Young, quoted in Wilford Woodruff's journal.

“In the first stage, man was an eternally existent being termed an intelligence ... The next realm where man dwelt was the spirit world. ... eternally-existing intelligences were clothed with spirit bodies in the mansion of their Eternal Father... There in the spirit world they were reared to maturity, becoming grown spirit men and women prior to coming upon this earth ... Here he receives a physical body and undergoes the experiences of mortality... Eventually, however, mortal death comes upon man. The eternal spirit goes to the spirit world to await resurrection and judgment” - Gospel through the Ages, pp, 127-129

"We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth" - Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 218.

“In the heaven where are spirits were born, there are many Gods, each of whom has his own wife or wives, which were given to him…while yet in this mortal state..." - Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 37.

"... all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word." Moses 3:7

The Church has always taught that our spirits were born of our Heavenly Parents before being clothed in a tabernacle of flesh through a birth in mortality that was brought about in the same manner as the birth of our spirit bodies.

I have found many members of the church who think they are saints while rejecting the teachings of the Prophets of the Lord. It is better to cling to the words of the prophets, as the Israelites did of Moses, seeing his word as God's word, rather than look for some new path that rejects the prophets' teachings.

[bytor2112]

Gnatstrainer? I could be wrong here, but I think Hemi means that our Heavenly parents have bodies of flesh and bone and yes, they created our spirits. It appears that you are suggesting that our Heavenly parents are personages of spirit.

[cougarfan]

When they are born, their Spirits are compressed, which causes a loss in memory.” - Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses vol.16 p.333f

Is this doctrine? Just wondering.

[Lorenzo]

Gnatstrainer? I could be wrong here, but I think Hemi means that our Heavenly parents have bodies of flesh and bone and yes, they created our spirits. It appears that you are suggesting that our Heavenly parents are personages of spirit.

Should I respond, "Oh, my, I would never make t he heretical claim that God has a Spirit!"? Of course they have spirits, both spirit body and physical body, joined together. Isn't this elementary?

Guide to the Scriptures: Spirit:

"That part of a living being which exists before mortal birth, which dwells in the physical body during mortality, and which exists after death as a separate being until the resurrection. All living things—mankind, animals, and plants—were spirits before any form of life existed upon the earth (Gen. 2: 4-5; Moses 3: 4-7). The spirit body looks like the physical body (1 Ne. 11: 11; Ether 3: 15-16; D&C 77: 2; D&C 129). Spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure than mortal element or matter (D&C 131: 7).

Every person is literally a son or a daughter of God, having been born as a spirit to Heavenly Parents before being born to mortal parents on the earth (Heb. 12: 9). Each person on earth has an immortal spirit body in addition to a body of flesh and bone. As sometimes defined in scripture, the spirit and the physical body together constitute the soul (Gen. 2: 7; D&C 88: 15; Moses 3: 7, 9, 19; Abr. 5: 7). A spirit can live without a physical body, but the physical body cannot live without the spirit (James 2: 26). Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. In the resurrection, the spirit is reunited with the same physical body of flesh and bone it possessed as a mortal, with two major differences: they will never be separated again, and the physical body will be immortal and perfected (Alma 11: 45; D&C 138: 16-17)."

D&C 88:15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.

16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.

17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.

18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;

19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;

20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.

If God is only physical, how does he create spirit bodies ("in the same manner as all offspring are created")? If exalted persons are only physical, what has happened to their spirits? Did God's spirit die?

God is a perfected being.

God is spirit. (Alma 18:24-34; 22:9-11)

"The Lord has declared that 'the spirit and the body are the soul of man.' (D&C 88:15.) It is the spirit which is the offspring of God. The writer of Hebrews refers to Him as 'the Father of spirits.' (Heb. 12:9.) God Himself is a soul, composed of a spirit and of a body of flesh and bones, as tangible as man’s. He is a resurrected, glorified, exalted, omniscient, omnipotent person and is omnipresent in spirit and power and influence, the ruler of the heavens and the earth and all things therein. The spirits of all men are literally His 'begotten sons and daughters.' (D&C 76:24.) " Thomas S. Monson, An Invitation to Exaltation, Liahona, August 1986. (From a talk broadcast by Satellite during an investigator’s fireside, Salt Lake City, 1 March 1984.)

Spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure than mortal element or matter (D&C 131: 7). Therefore, one would not be wrong to say that God, and all earthlings, have two physical bodies, because that's what they both are: matter!

[bytor2112]

Should I respond, "Oh, my, I would never make t he heretical claim that God has a Spirit!"? Of course they have spirits, both spirit body and physical body, joined together. Isn't this elementary?

Not at all....however a tenant of our faith is that they have bodies of flesh and bone and of course they have Spirits as well. Just clarifying what I think the confusion was. All on the same page now.

[Lorenzo]

Is this doctrine? Just wondering.

Define "doctrine". Of course it is not doctrine in the sense that it was voted on, with the yeas and nays being tallied, so it's not in the D&C, if that's what you mean. But, you know, it is a sleazy and loathsome spirit that must be commanded in all things. We are to use our free agency. As far as I know, the Prophet Joseph Smith did not condemn Pratt for this insight, or for the whole publication (The Seer). So Joseph must have though it was okay. In fact, since he didn't object or require Pratt to "correct" his statement, chances are it is true. Remember: spirit is matter, but more fine. So for matter to be put inside matter, even if it is more fine, might require some adjustments. I'm not saying I believe this. I'm just using it as part of the corroboration of my comments about spirit and matter. On the other hand, I haven't come across any significant argument against it either.

You should use your free agency, Cougarfan, to decide what is doctrine. Everyone can make mistakes. Sometimes a prophet speaks as a prophet, and sometimes as a personal individual giving his personal opinion. You have to have a measure of the spirit to discern between truth and opinion. The fact that the members of the church for the most part come to the same conclusion on doctrines is evidence that the spirit of discernment is especially strong among the saints. I think you already knew that. This is one reason that we are the ones to whom the Lord reveals new truths from time to time, and the Lord protects us from falsehood. The Lord's spirit guides the prophet continually.

[john doe]

Let's be careful here in defining the differences between 'doctrine' and truth. Remember, just because an idea may be true, it may not be official church doctrine.

[Compassionate]

All we know for sure is besides the three Kingdoms, Jesus said in My Father's house are many mansions. Outside of that ,I would venture is speculation.

[FunkyTown]

Well... Possibly, Gnat. It's also just as likely that Joseph Smith wasn't led in all things, either, since he wasn't a lazy servant.

If that's the case, he may just not have been inspired one way or the other on whether or not this is doctrine. I'm not saying this is wrong; Instead, I'm saying that this may not be revealed truth since it is not doctrine nor is it taught in our classrooms.

As a sidenote: Neal A. Maxwell quoted extensively from the Journal of Discourses. However, numerous other apostles made no mention of it in any of their talks.

Here's what lds.org has to say:

Though the First Presidency endorsed the publication of the Journal, there was no endorsement as to the accuracy or reliability of the contents. There were occasions when the accuracy was questionable. The accounts were not always cleared by the speakers because of problems of time and distance. This was especially true during the persecution of the 1880s which finally forced the cessation of publication.

We should remember that the times were different then. A major concern of the early Saints was physical survival. Sermons often dealt with the practical problems of the time and so may seem quaint in our day, even if much of the advice is still valid.

Doctrinally, members of the Church were growing and learning. Most adults were converts who had to unlearn and relearn many doctrines. They were learning things which our children learn in Primary and Sunday School. Remarks were frequently impromptu. Close, friendly audiences frequently invited informal discussion of varied topics. There was occasional speculation about doctrines which have since been determined unimportant or even misleading.

The general membership of the Church has progressed in knowledge of gospel principles, which is as it should be. In our organizations, we have been taught the gospel for more than one hundred years now. Because of modern revelation and because of “line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept” progression, we have answers that were not yet given when the Journal of Discourses was published.

Seems pretty clear to me: Always turn to the scriptures because the Journal of Discourses isn't the most accurate assessment of the truth.

Define "doctrine". Of course it is not doctrine in the sense that it was voted on, with the yeas and nays being tallied, so it's not in the D&C, if that's what you mean. But, you know, it is a sleazy and loathsome spirit that must be commanded in all things. We are to use our free agency. As far as I know, the Prophet Joseph Smith did not condemn Pratt for this insight, or for the whole publication (The Seer). So Joseph must have though it was okay. In fact, since he didn't object or require Pratt to "correct" his statement, chances are it is true. Remember: spirit is matter, but more fine. So for matter to be put inside matter, even if it is more fine, might require some adjustments. I'm not saying I believe this. I'm just using it as part of the corroboration of my comments about spirit and matter. On the other hand, I haven't come across any significant argument against it either.

You should use your free agency, Cougarfan, to decide what is doctrine. Everyone can make mistakes. Sometimes a prophet speaks as a prophet, and sometimes as a personal individual giving his personal opinion. You have to have a measure of the spirit to discern between truth and opinion. The fact that the members of the church for the most part come to the same conclusion on doctrines is evidence that the spirit of discernment is especially strong among the saints. I think you already knew that. This is one reason that we are the ones to whom the Lord reveals new truths from time to time, and the Lord protects us from falsehood. The Lord's spirit guides the prophet continually.

[Compassionate]

If our goal in eternity is to become a soul, then after our spirit and flesh are reunited at the resurrection to become a soul.

In my thinking logic would be, we have now progressed to a higher state the soul never to broken again into spirit and flesh but to remain as a soul. So there ceases to be a spirit and a higher being a glorified soul is created. What Spirit does the Father use to influence others and testify? He gives that task to the Holy Ghost which remains a spirit to testify. He does not separate from His flesh to deliver messages, this would be impossible. When the Father and the Son have something to say they do it in person such as with Joseph. Even all the other messengers were resurrected beings. Even when the brother of Jared saw the Lords finger, the Lord told him it was what was to come that he was seeing.

Anyway this is my opinion.

[Hemidakota]

"Because we are the spiritual spirit children of our heavenly parents ..." - Gospel Principles, chapter 2, Our Heavenly Family.

"Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become Gods like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation." - Gospel Principles, Chapter 47, Exaltation.

"This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund) when, in speaking of pre-existence and the origin of man, they said that 'man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father,' that man is the 'offspring of celestial parentage,' and that 'all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.'" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 516

"As shown in this chapter, our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principles, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood. In such a condition, he and our mother in heaven were empowered to give birth to spirit children whose potential was equal to that of their heavenly parents. We are those spirit children." - Achieving a Celestial Marriage p 132)

"...all had a previous existence, thousands of years ago, in the heavens, in the presence of God" Journal of Discourses vol. 1 p. 62.

"...before men and women are born on earth as babies, their spirits are adult size in heaven. When they are born, their Spirits are compressed, which causes a loss in memory.” - Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses vol.16 p.333f

"Our Father begot all the spirits that were before any tabernacle was made." - Brigham Young, quoted in Wilford Woodruff's journal.

“In the first stage, man was an eternally existent being termed an intelligence ... The next realm where man dwelt was the spirit world. ... eternally-existing intelligences were clothed with spirit bodies in the mansion of their Eternal Father... There in the spirit world they were reared to maturity, becoming grown spirit men and women prior to coming upon this earth ... Here he receives a physical body and undergoes the experiences of mortality... Eventually, however, mortal death comes upon man. The eternal spirit goes to the spirit world to await resurrection and judgment” - Gospel through the Ages, pp, 127-129

"We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth" - Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 218.

“In the heaven where are spirits were born, there are many Gods, each of whom has his own wife or wives, which were given to him…while yet in this mortal state..." - Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 37.

"... all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word." Moses 3:7

The Church has always taught that our spirits were born of our Heavenly Parents before being clothed in a tabernacle of flesh through a birth in mortality that was brought about in the same manner as the birth of our spirit bodies.

I have found many members of the church who think they are saints while rejecting the teachings of the Prophets of the Lord. It is better to cling to the words of the prophets, as the Israelites did of Moses, seeing his word as God's word, rather than look for some new path that rejects the prophets' teachings.

Church did not, has not, set any doctrinal statement of such but that our spirits were CREATED by our beloved Parents. If you find this not correct, then by all means contact any GA for yourself in seeking such an answer, if not then the First Presidency. There is but one who has been born by GOD and that is the only begotten of the FATHER - meaning - our beloved Savior Himself in the mortal flesh. Though, I know what President Young stated concerning Adam/Eve, but this is not DOCTRINAL by others of the same office and needs a personal revelation from the Godhead and confirmation by such in order understand what is given.

Reading the last statement, makes me really wonder here exactly where quotes are taken out of content and exact meaning of such are incorrectly defined when the individual is straining to make clear such definitional of such without looking at the past.

No offense, but your statement is not correctly inline what is taught by the brethren... this is not rejecting the prophets but clearly defining an area where you need to view it in order to understand it. Following the example of Enoch and Abraham in seeing the universe and its creation in order to understand it. Example of Paul in describing the glories of each kingdom and Joseph Smith having the same movie played to him in understanding the most plain book ever written by John (Revelation).

As I truly thanked others who answered before me while I am sitting here at Stanford U. in the heat today.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Should I respond, "Oh, my, I would never make t he heretical claim that God has a Spirit!"? Of course they have spirits, both spirit body and physical body, joined together. Isn't this elementary?

Guide to the Scriptures: Spirit:

"That part of a living being which exists before mortal birth, which dwells in the physical body during mortality, and which exists after death as a separate being until the resurrection. All living things—mankind, animals, and plants—were spirits before any form of life existed upon the earth (Gen. 2: 4-5; Moses 3: 4-7). The spirit body looks like the physical body (1 Ne. 11: 11; Ether 3: 15-16; D&C 77: 2; D&C 129). Spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure than mortal element or matter (D&C 131: 7).

Every person is literally a son or a daughter of God, having been born as a spirit to Heavenly Parents before being born to mortal parents on the earth (Heb. 12: 9). Each person on earth has an immortal spirit body in addition to a body of flesh and bone. As sometimes defined in scripture, the spirit and the physical body together constitute the soul (Gen. 2: 7; D&C 88: 15; Moses 3: 7, 9, 19; Abr. 5: 7). A spirit can live without a physical body, but the physical body cannot live without the spirit (James 2: 26). Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. In the resurrection, the spirit is reunited with the same physical body of flesh and bone it possessed as a mortal, with two major differences: they will never be separated again, and the physical body will be immortal and perfected (Alma 11: 45; D&C 138: 16-17)."

D&C 88:15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.

16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.

17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.

18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;

19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;

20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.

If God is only physical, how does he create spirit bodies ("in the same manner as all offspring are created")? If exalted persons are only physical, what has happened to their spirits? Did God's spirit die?

God is a perfected being.

God is spirit. (Alma 18:24-34; 22:9-11)

"The Lord has declared that 'the spirit and the body are the soul of man.' (D&C 88:15.) It is the spirit which is the offspring of God. The writer of Hebrews refers to Him as 'the Father of spirits.' (Heb. 12:9.) God Himself is a soul, composed of a spirit and of a body of flesh and bones, as tangible as man’s. He is a resurrected, glorified, exalted, omniscient, omnipotent person and is omnipresent in spirit and power and influence, the ruler of the heavens and the earth and all things therein. The spirits of all men are literally His 'begotten sons and daughters.' (D&C 76:24.) " Thomas S. Monson, An Invitation to Exaltation, Liahona, August 1986. (From a talk broadcast by Satellite during an investigator’s fireside, Salt Lake City, 1 March 1984.)

Spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure than mortal element or matter (D&C 131: 7). Therefore, one would not be wrong to say that God, and all earthlings, have two physical bodies, because that's what they both are: matter!

Here is a simple truth but not doctrinal - SOUL = Intelligence + Spirit Body + Mortal Body

[Lorenzo]

Church did not, has not, set any doctrinal statement of such but that our spirits were CREATED by our beloved Parents.

Which is why I quoted Moses 3:7 !

If you find this not correct, then by all means contact any GA for yourself in seeking such an answer, if not then the First Presidency.

Go ask God.

Though, I know what President Young stated concerning Adam/Eve, but this is not DOCTRINAL by others of the same office and needs a personal revelation from the Godhead and confirmation by such in order understand what is given.

If you are sincere and worthy, God will give you that revelation.

Reading the last statement, makes me really wonder here exactly where quotes are taken out of content and exact meaning of such are incorrectly defined when the individual is straining to make clear such definitional of such without looking at the past.

I tried to give the references to them. If you are interested in reading the entire talks or reading the books the quotes are from, in their original context, I think you could look them up easily enough, or contact any GA or the First Presidency for clarification.

No offense, but your statement is not correctly inline what is taught by the brethren... this is not rejecting the prophets but clearly defining an area where you need to view it in order to understand it. Following the example of Enoch and Abraham in seeing the universe and its creation in order to understand it. Example of Paul in describing the glories of each kingdom and Joseph Smith having the same movie played to him in understanding the most plain book ever written by John (Revelation).

Mmm, yes, that is true. You will note that I gave citations for what I was quoting. I wasn't trying to pretend these things are taught publicly by today's church leaders. I was attempting an historical perspective. I believe that what was once taught may be taught again. We need to be aware of our past as well as of our present, and thanks to a living prophet, we can be aware of our future, too. We have to make sure our spirits are receptive to new truth as well as to old that may be restored. Line by line, here a little, there a little, until all is restored and formed together in unity for the good of the saints.

[Hemidakota]

Giving references and understanding is not always given. And yes, I did asked GOD when I was first converted....as I also know, GOD and the Savior are not respecter of persons.

[CrossfitDan]

It is my suspicion that this may be a misinterpretation of D&C 131:1-4

"In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; and if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase."

This is traditionally interpreted as meaning that the celestial kingdom has "three heavens or degrees". I suspect that it simply means that the heavenly (or, in other words, celestial) realms consist of three large divisions, those which we generally call "celestial", "terrestrial", and "telestial". In this interpretation, we are told that to enter into the highest "heaven or degree" of the "celestial glory" -- aka the celestial kingdom -- a man must be sealed to a woman.

Of course, I might be wrong. I don't preach this in Church. But it sure seems like a little bit of overinterpretation of something that might have a much simpler explanation, sort of a less clearcut version of the old "Jesus was born on April 6" canard based solely on a formalistic introduction to Section 20.

This is a great insight. From my understanding you are very correct in that it is a misreading of the D&C. Our institute Director in our area teaches this and as a member of the Stake Pres. he will always correct the teaching when discussed in the wards.

Also, read this: Is the Celestial Kingdom Divided into Three Subdegrees? By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

Edited February 2, 2011 by CrossfitDan
added a link