Interesting Parallel

[Jason]

Moses 1 (PoGP):

"And God spake unto Moses saying: ...look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease. . . . And it came to pass that Moses looked, and beheld the world upon which he was created; and Moses beheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; of the same he greatly marveled and wondered. . . . And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed."

Vision of St. Angela of Foligna (1309):

"The eyes of my soul were opened, and I beheld the plenitude of God, wherein I did comprehend the whold world, both here and beyond the sea, and the abyss and ocean and all things. In all these things I beheld naught save the divine power, in a manner assuredly indescribable; so that through exess of marvelling the sould cried with a loud voice, saying 'This whole world is full of God!' Wherefore I now comprehended how small a thing is the whole world, that is to say both here and beyond the seas, the abyss, the ocean, and all things; and that the Power of God exceeds and fills all. Then He said unto me: 'I have shown thee something of My Power,' and I understood, that after this I shouldbetter understand the rest. He then said 'Behold now My humility.' Then was I given an insight into the deep humility of God towards man. And comprehending that unspeakable power and beholding that deep humility, my soul marvelled greatly, and did esteem itself to be nothing at all."

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 10 2005, 02:37 PM

Moses 1 (PoGP):

"And God spake unto Moses saying: ...look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease. . . . And it came to pass that Moses looked, and beheld the world upon which he was created; and Moses beheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; of the same he greatly marveled and wondered. . . . And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed." 

Vision of St. Angela of Foligna (1309):

"The eyes of my soul were opened, and I beheld the plenitude of God, wherein I did comprehend the whold world, both here and beyond the sea, and the abyss and ocean and all things.  In all these things I beheld naught save the divine power, in a manner assuredly indescribable; so that through exess of marvelling the sould cried with a loud voice, saying 'This whole world is full of God!'  Wherefore I now comprehended how small a thing is the whole world, that is to say both here and beyond the seas, the abyss, the ocean, and all things; and that the Power of God exceeds and fills all.  Then He said unto me: 'I have shown thee something of My Power,' and I understood, that after this I shouldbetter understand the rest.  He then said 'Behold now My humility.'  Then was I given an insight into the deep humility of God towards man.  And comprehending that unspeakable power and beholding that deep humility, my soul marvelled greatly, and did esteem itself to be nothing at all."

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Wow that is awesome!

[DisRuptive1]

When did the transcription of the vision come to pass? Antis might use it to discredit Joseph Smith.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Sep 10 2005, 08:26 PM

When did the transcription of the vision come to pass?  Antis might use it to discredit Joseph Smith.

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How can it be used to discret? They were totally different in both style and view. Yet they received the same conclusion. The conclusion alone can't be enough to discredit or you would have to discredit almost all literature out there...

[DisRuptive1]

Antis would say that JS wrote the BoM himself, without revelation. What if he read the quote and put it in the BoM?

[Fiannan]

Add to this parallels with the Koran, ancient Christian texts, etc. Boy, Joseph must have spent a lot of time researching in the awesome libraries of upstate New York in the early 1800s.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 10 2005, 01:37 PM

Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed." 

And comprehending that unspeakable power and beholding that deep humility, my soul marvelled greatly, and did esteem itself to be nothing at all."

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I agree with Peace.....WOW....thanks for sharing Jason

I think it shows us that as important as we think we are in this world, as great as we may think we may be... that next to the greatness of everything else...we are nothing in comparison.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Sep 11 2005, 12:16 PM

Antis would say that JS wrote the BoM himself, without revelation.  What if he read the quote and put it in the BoM?

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Did you know that there were no less than 4 people developing a telephone at the same time?

Did you know the same thing could be said about the automobile? Ideas or not so isolated that only one person could receive it.

I had an experience during my mission that will illustrate my point. Every so often we would have missionary conference. Twice just the month before the conference, I would get a really cool idea for helping the missionary work along and I would write it down in my journal.

When I got to the missionary conference, lo and behold, the theme of the conference would be built on my idea. I never shared that idea with anyone... yet here was someone else having the exact same idea....

I don't think it has to be a stolen idea in order for two separate people to have the same thing given to them from the same source... do you?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Sep 11 2005, 01:35 PM

Add to this parallels with the Koran, ancient Christian texts, etc. Boy, Joseph must have spent a lot of time researching in the awesome libraries of upstate New York in the early 1800s.

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Yeah the third grade education certainly did go a long way back then.

[Traveler]

This concept of "nothingness" as the result of a vision is not new. The expression in Moses is more similar to the Book of Enoch. I will not go into all the details why this is so important. But note the date for the St. Angela. This took place in the middle ages when the Book of Enoch was only available to Catholic clergy and had been removed from scripture.

The concept of a restoration is missing from this thread. The point is that through Joseph Smith we have important concepts restored in a time that things of Christian doctrine were not complete. The fact that such "restored" ideas can be traced to previous times is an important clue concerning our time and LDS doctrine.

The Traveler

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Traveler@Sep 12 2005, 12:06 PM

This concept of "nothingness" as the result of a vision is not new.  The expression in Moses is more similar to the Book of Enoch.  I will not go into all the details why this is so important.  But note the date for the St. Angela.  This took place in the middle ages when the Book of Enoch was only available to Catholic clergy and had been removed from scripture.

The concept of a restoration is missing from this thread.  The point is that through Joseph Smith we have important concepts restored in a time that things of Christian doctrine were not complete.  The fact that such "restored" ideas can be traced to previous times is an important clue concerning our time and LDS doctrine.

The Traveler

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Oh Wow!!! Thank you for bringing up such solid points! It took centuries for the bible to become available and then only the books the compilers deemed worthy, were allowed. That is why the book of Enoch isn't even in the king james and others like it.

A whole lot has been restore through Joseph Smith.

[Lindy]

Have you ever just had the chance to lay outside on a clear, starry night on a blanket....or a log....or a rock....etc. in the country somewhere, away from all the lights...and just laid there awestruck by everything you could see?

Sometimes there are advantages to living in the country....many city folk have never had, or taken, that chance to view the heavens in such a way.

It is one of the most humbling moments you could have as you realize how small a part of the universe you actually are......but also knowing how great you are as a force to be reckoned with, just knowing all the love and compassion you have for things around you.

well, maybe it's just me.... I can be wierd at times

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Lindy@Sep 17 2005, 11:46 PM

Have you ever just had the chance to lay outside on a clear, starry night on a blanket....or a log....or a rock....etc.  in the country somewhere, away from all the lights...and just laid there awestruck by everything you could see?

Sometimes there are advantages to living in the country....many city folk have never had, or taken, that chance to view the heavens in such a way.

It is one of the most humbling moments you could have as you realize how small a part of the universe you actually are......but also knowing how great you are as a force to be reckoned with, just knowing all the love and compassion you have for things around you.

well, maybe it's just me.... I can be wierd at times

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You are not wierd... that is awesome. I remember when I was a teen going out into the Unita basin and doing this with my cousins... it was awesome... I hve never forgotten the feeling I received when doing that. Now when we drive anywhere far away and it is late at night... we stop the car and everyone gets out and takes a look at the sky without any city lights to take away the brilliance and magnitude of the heavens...

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 10 2005, 03:37 PM

Moses 1 (PoGP):

"And God spake unto Moses saying: ...look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease. . . . And it came to pass that Moses looked, and beheld the world upon which he was created; and Moses beheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; of the same he greatly marveled and wondered. . . . And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed." 

Vision of St. Angela of Foligna (1309):

"The eyes of my soul were opened, and I beheld the plenitude of God, wherein I did comprehend the whold world, both here and beyond the sea, and the abyss and ocean and all things.  In all these things I beheld naught save the divine power, in a manner assuredly indescribable; so that through exess of marvelling the sould cried with a loud voice, saying 'This whole world is full of God!'  Wherefore I now comprehended how small a thing is the whole world, that is to say both here and beyond the seas, the abyss, the ocean, and all things; and that the Power of God exceeds and fills all.  Then He said unto me: 'I have shown thee something of My Power,' and I understood, that after this I shouldbetter understand the rest.  He then said 'Behold now My humility.'  Then was I given an insight into the deep humility of God towards man.  And comprehending that unspeakable power and beholding that deep humility, my soul marvelled greatly, and did esteem itself to be nothing at all."

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Very interesting parallel indeed Jason. I enjoyed reading that. It reminded me of a parallel I'd uncovered when studying Judaism (I read and write Hebrew). One of the greatest medieval Jewish thinkers and writers was Moses Maimonides. He wrote most of his books in the end of the 12th century A.D.

Among other works, he wrote "13 principles of Faith," that all started with "I believe." Sound familiar? In the original school of the prophets set up by Joseph Smith through revelation, Joseph hired a Rabbi to teach them to read and write Hebrew. So did Joseph simply "plagiarize" Moses Maimonides when he wrote the LDS 13 Articles of Faith? No...as has been noted, more than one inspired man may conceive of the same thing centuries apart.

Joseph did an inspired translation of the Bible, why not inspired adaptations of other good works he read, i.e. Jewish works? It is great to know that both Joseph Smith AND Moses Maimonides said the same thing in relation to this.

Moses Maimonides: "You must accept the truth from whatever source it comes."

Joseph Smith (TPJS): "The grand governing principle of Mormonism is to accept truth, let it come from whatever source it may."

Just goes to show that the LDS church doesn't have a "copyright" on truth...but we do have a fulness of truth! Just thought I'd share.

[Jason]

Adding to the Moses 1 Parallels....Here's one I posted some time ago:

"As to the account of the Creation, with which the Book of Genesis opens, it has all the appearance of being a tradition which the Israelites had among them before they came into Egypt. . . . The manner in which the account opens shows it to be traditionary. It begins abruptly; it is nobody that speaks; it is nobody that hears; it is addressed to nobody; it has neither first, second, nor third person; it has every criterion of being a tradition; it has no voucher. Moses does not take it upon himself by introducing it with the formality that he uses on other occasions, such as that of saying, "The Lord spake unto Moses, saying." Why it has been called the Mosiac account of the Creation, I am at a loss to conceive. . . . and the silence and caution that Moses observes in not authenticating the account, is a good negative evidence that he neither told it nor believed it." (Age of Reason, Thomas Paine)

Then we have Joseph Smith, 36 years later, writing this:

"The words of God, which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain. . . . And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven, and this earth; write the words which I speak. I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest. And the earth was without form, and void. . . " (Moses 1:1, 2:1-2)

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 21 2005, 12:17 PM

Adding to the Moses 1 Parallels....Here's one I posted some time ago:

"As to the account of the Creation, with which the Book of Genesis opens, it has all the appearance of being a tradition which the Israelites had among them before they came into Egypt. . . . The manner in which the account opens shows it to be traditionary. It begins abruptly; it is nobody that speaks; it is nobody that hears; it is addressed to nobody; it has neither first, second, nor third person; it has every criterion of being a tradition; it has no voucher. Moses does not take it upon himself by introducing it with the formality that he uses on other occasions, such as that of saying, "The Lord spake unto Moses, saying." Why it has been called the Mosiac account of the Creation, I am at a loss to conceive. . . . and the silence and caution that Moses observes in not authenticating the account, is a good negative evidence that he neither told it nor believed it." (Age of Reason, Thomas Paine)

Then we have Joseph Smith, 36 years later, writing this:

"The words of God, which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain. . . . And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven, and this earth; write the words which I speak. I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest. And the earth was without form, and void. . . " (Moses 1:1, 2:1-2)

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Interesting. When I read the history of Africa... the story or tradition was how they kept their history.

[Jason]

I see a couple of guests are reading this today. So here's a bump for anyone else who's interested.

[BenThere]

I feel it to be very disrespectful to be dwindinling(sp) on these things when heavenly father has been very gracious in revealing so many things, yes we need to contemplate all that has been revealed but we must not dwell on them to a point that we are lack in so many others

[Traveler]

I feel it to be very disrespectful to be dwindinling(sp) on these things when heavenly father has been very gracious in revealing so many things, yes we need to contemplate all that has been revealed but we must not dwell on them to a point that we are lack in so many others

I am sorry but I do not understand what this post is trying to say. Perhaps if you would be clear. Would you list the points that show disrespect to our Father in Heaven and also list the points that are of great importance?

Thanks

The Traveler