A Few Questions

[Dust]

Here is where you and I differ. I cannot convince you of any truths, nor can you convince me. It is the Holy Spirit who teaches and testifiies of truth. What I see from you (and I'll allow that I may be misinterpreting it) is you want us to refute everything you post with "proof" so you can be convinced. That will never, ever happen. We could have the most well read and articulate person come on here and refute everything you post and you will continue to not be convinced because God doesn't work like that. He invites us to learn of Him and gives us knowledge and truth as we are able to handle it. If we come at truth with an attitude of "convince me" then He won't--He works through gentleness and persuasion.

I'm sure there will be some who will engage in this type of posting with you and if it works for you or them (as long as the site rules are followed) then have fun. But, I'm convinced that you will not be convinced.

That is a bit harsh, but let me check the Bible to see if the Lord uses gentleness and persuasion to convince His people...

Leviticus 26:14-45

"But if you will not hearken to me, and will not do all these commandments, if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant, I will do this to you: I will appoint over you sudden terror, consumption and fever that waste the eyes and cause life to pine away. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it; I will set my face against you, and you shall be smitten before your enemies; those who hate you shall rule over you, and you shall flee when none pursues you. And if in spite of this you will not hearken to me, then I will chastise you again sevenfold for your sins, and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like brass; and your strength shall be spent in vain, for your land shall not yield its increase, and the trees of the land shall not yield their fruit. "Then if you walk contrary to me, and will not hearken to me, I will bring more plagues upon you, sevenfold as many as your sins. And I will let loose the wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number, so that your ways shall become desolate. "And if by this discipline you are not turned to me, but walk contrary to me, then I also will walk contrary to you, and I myself will smite you sevenfold for your sins. And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall execute vengeance for the covenant; and if you gather within your cities I will send pestilence among you, and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. When I break your staff of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and shall deliver your bread again by weight; and you shall eat, and not be satisfied. "And if in spite of this you will not hearken to me, but walk contrary to me, then I will walk contrary to you in fury, and chastise you myself sevenfold for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and cast your dead bodies upon the dead bodies of your idols; and my soul will abhor you. And I will lay your cities waste, and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your pleasing odors. And I will devastate the land, so that your enemies who settle in it shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the nations, and I will unsheathe the sword after you; and your land shall be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste. "Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest, and enjoy its sabbaths. As long as it lies desolate it shall have rest, the rest which it had not in your sabbaths when you dwelt upon it. And as for those of you that are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; the sound of a driven leaf shall put them to flight, and they shall flee as one flees from the sword, and they shall fall when none pursues. They shall stumble over one another, as if to escape a sword, though none pursues; and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies. And you shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. And those of you that are left shall pine away in your enemies' lands because of their iniquity; and also because of the iniquities of their fathers they shall pine away like them. "But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery which they committed against me, and also in walking contrary to me, so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity; then I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. But the land shall be left by them, and enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them; and they shall make amends for their iniquity, because they spurned my ordinances, and their soul abhorred my statutes. Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not spurn them, neither will I abhor them so as to destroy them utterly and break my covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God; but I will for their sake remember the covenant with their forefathers, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the Lord."

Well that's a no to gentleness there. If you wanted to shorten this to a metaphor about father and child, I guess it would be disciplining first with a slapping, then a spanking, then taking away possessions, then beating to a bloody pulp, and then throwing out of the house. Take notice that there is a chance at repentence and turning toward God throughout this. These punishments were to chastise and "convince" Israel to turn to the Lord. But they certainly were not gentle.

I could list about a thousand examples of chastisement and the fulfilling of this prophecy in Leviticus in the Old Testament, but I am sure some one will say that that only applies to Old Testament. So let us use New Testament examples about how the Father does not convince with gentle persuasion but with chastisement.

A quick definition of chastise: it comes from the word chaste meaning pure. Thus, to chastise means to purify from iniquity. This word is often used with disciplining a child and relates to corporeal punishment as to get them in line.

Hebrews 12:5-11

"And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons?- "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."

Verse 6 in the RSV uses discipline instead of chastise as in the KJV and uses chastise instead of scourge. This makes the sentence a little less intense, but the word mastigoo is used when Christ was scourged by the Romans before his crucifixion. We know that this was to discipline him as well (2 Sam 7:14).

It seems like one quote will not do.

1 Cor 11:32

"But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world."

Rev 3:19

"Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent."

The two above relate to being physically chastised.

Paul below talks about spiritually chastised. Again, this is not gentle persuasion but fervent combatting with words (not being angry, but being zealous).

2 Cor 10:3-6

"For though we live in the world we are not carrying on a worldly war, for the weapons of our warfare are not worldly but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete."

Why is this chastisement necessary? Obedience.

Rom 6:16

"Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?"

2 Cor 2:9

"For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything."

Phil 2:8 (of Christ)

"And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross."

1 Pet 1:1, 2, 14-17

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion... chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood... As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile."

Thus, the Lord does not use gentle persuasion, but discipline, reprovement, punishment, and chastisement to garner faithful, respectful, and loving obedience from His children so that He may be manifest in them. If Christ was not spared the rod, what makes people think that the believers will not?

Now I tend to write is if I am speaking without being open, but I am indeed open. If I err in anything, please tell me and show me how I err so that I may gain something from it.

[pam]

If Christ was not spared the rod,

I'm not sure I understand this...could you explain?

[Dust]

I'm not sure I understand this...could you explain?

Certainly.

It is from Proverbs 13:24

"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him."

Obviously, the Father loves His son.

And this promise was given to David concerning Christ (also Solomon).

2 Sam 7:12-16

"When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come forth from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. When he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men; but I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure for ever before me; your throne shall be established for ever."

Isaiah thus sums up that Jesus Christ was chastised on our account. In other words, he took our punishment.

Isaiah 53:5

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed."

But chastisement and reproof is also a test of character (see Job). And Christ showed his character by being obedient even unto death.

Phil 2:3-16

"Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Do all things without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain."

Thus, the rod or physical punishment was laid upon Christ for both his good and our good. For the rod revealed in him no falseness and perfect obedience so that he was made greater than angels. As Solomon says, the Lord loves His son and did not spare the rod from him. The Lord even promised to David that he would not spare the rod. Isaiah says that with the stripes from that rod, we shall be healed. And Paul says that Christ suffered the rod even unto his own death... so work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

So... Christ was not spared the rod. I hope this helped.

[pam]

I guess I just don't understand. Christ as we know was perfect..there wasn't a need for him to be chastized by his Father. Perhaps it's just my interpretation of "sparing the rod" that makes the difference. I just don't understand it from your explanation.

I don't look upon the atonement as Christ being chastened on our account. I look at it as the most thoughtful acts anyone could have ever done. It almost makes it sound like Christ was punished for the sins of the world and that's not what the atonement was about. Or again, maybe just my understanding is flawed.

[beefche]

I don't look upon the atonement as Christ being chastened on our account. I look at it as the most thoughtful acts anyone could have ever done. It almost makes it sound like Christ was punished for the sins of the world and that's not what the atonement was about. Or again, maybe just my understanding is flawed.

Pam, Christ was punished for our sins. That what the suffering in Gethsame was about. He suffered for every sin past, present, and future, that any person would ever commit. That is why He suffered so much in the Garden. He bled from every pore and we can avoid such suffering when we choose to repent in the name of Jesus. He has suffered the punishment for our sin--if we accept His atonement, then the price for that sin was paid by Christ.

D&C 19

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have asuffered these things for all, that they might not bsuffer if they would crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must asuffer even as I;

18 Which asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and afinished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I ahumble you with my almighty power; and that you bconfess your sins, lest you suffer these cpunishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have dtasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

[beefche]

Does God chastise us? Yes, but I don't believe He uses it to convince us to come unto Him.

Gal 5

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The Spirit of God is one of meekness and gentleness. He is love, joy, peace, and goodness. Jesus stands at the door and knocks, yet it is up to us to hear Him and open to Him.

In the Book of Mormon, there was a prophet, Alma, who was preaching to some people who were kicked out of their place of worship because they were poor. He said:

Alma 32

22 And now, behold, I say unto you, and I would that ye should remember, that God is merciful unto all who believe on his name; therefore he desireth, in the first place, that ye should believe, yea, even on his word.

Alma then begins to teach the people on how to build faith. I believe that is how God wants us to know Him--to build faith in Him. You should read it (I linked to that chapter). I think you will find some interesting and thought provoking ideas there.

[Dust]

I guess I just don't understand. Christ as we know was perfect..there wasn't a need for him to be chastized by his Father. Perhaps it's just my interpretation of "sparing the rod" that makes the difference. I just don't understand it from your explanation.

I don't look upon the atonement as Christ being chastened on our account. I look at it as the most thoughtful acts anyone could have ever done. It almost makes it sound like Christ was punished for the sins of the world and that's not what the atonement was about. Or again, maybe just my understanding is flawed.

I think perhaps we might disagree with when the actual day of atonement was. As we both know, Christ died upon the Passover as it correlates to the deaths of the first born of Egypt for the deliverance of the Israelites from bondage. For us, this bondage is the slavery to sin (as Romans calls it). Passover is the 14th of Nissan.

About 6 months later on the 10th of Tishrei is the Day of Atonement or Yom Kippur. The Day of Atonement corresponds to the Day of Judgement as called in the New Testament. Prior to Yom Kippur, Moses went up Mount Sinai to speak with the Lord and to be given the Law to which the Israelites had to obey. When he came back down, he found the Israelites worshipping a golden calf and had many of them killed and destroyed for their idolatry (incidentally, the Father wanted to kill all of them, but Moses gave intercession).

Now we see that this is Christ. Christ went up the mountain (ascended) and he shall come back down the mountain when there is a state of wickedness amongst the earth. On this day, he shall destroy the wicked and save the righteous. Take notice that while Moses was on the mountain he gave intercession, just as Christ gives intercession for the believers. When he comes down, we will all have to atone for our sins.

Incidentally, major events of Christ's life corresponds to the feast days. He was born on the Feast of Tabernacles. He died on the Feast of Passover. Actually, I just found this website which looks like it talks about the feast days corresponding to the first and second coming of Jesus. It looks like an SDA site which I do not endorse, but at least the info about the feasts is good.

Well anyways, the day of Atonement has yet to come.

[pam]

Pam, Christ was punished for our sins. That what the suffering in Gethsame was about. He suffered for every sin past, present, and future, that any person would ever commit. That is why He suffered so much in the Garden. He bled from every pore and we can avoid such suffering when we choose to repent in the name of Jesus. He has suffered the punishment for our sin--if we accept His atonement, then the price for that sin was paid by Christ.

I guess I just don't consider it as "punishment." He took on our sins but I've never looked at it as Christ being punished per se. Just different interpretation I guess.

[beefche]

I guess I just don't consider it as "punishment." He took on our sins but I've never looked at it as Christ being punished per se. Just different interpretation I guess.

What is your interpretation? Why did Christ suffer in the Garden? Why did He die on the cross?

[beefche]

I think perhaps we might disagree with when the actual day of atonement was. As we both know, Christ died upon the Passover as it correlates to the deaths of the first born of Egypt for the deliverance of the Israelites from bondage. For us, this bondage is the slavery to sin (as Romans calls it). Passover is the 14th of Nissan.

About 6 months later on the 10th of Tishrei is the Day of Atonement or Yom Kippur. The Day of Atonement corresponds to the Day of Judgement as called in the New Testament. Prior to Yom Kippur, Moses went up Mount Sinai to speak with the Lord and to be given the Law to which the Israelites had to obey. When he came back down, he found the Israelites worshipping a golden calf and had many of them killed and destroyed for their idolatry (incidentally, the Father wanted to kill all of them, but Moses gave intercession).

Now we see that this is Christ. Christ went up the mountain (ascended) and he shall come back down the mountain when there is a state of wickedness amongst the earth. On this day, he shall destroy the wicked and save the righteous. Take notice that while Moses was on the mountain he gave intercession, just as Christ gives intercession for the believers. When he comes down, we will all have to atone for our sins.

Incidentally, major events of Christ's life corresponds to the feast days. He was born on the Feast of Tabernacles. He died on the Feast of Passover. Actually, I just found this website which looks like it talks about the feast days corresponding to the first and second coming of Jesus. It looks like an SDA site which I do not endorse, but at least the info about the feasts is good.

Well anyways, the day of Atonement has yet to come.

One of the things that I absolutely love in the scriptures is all the symbolism. Jesus truly was prophecy in the Old Testament. Everything done in the Old Testament pointed to Christ. So, it's always interesting to read more and more about the culture and intricateness of Jewish life.

[ryanh]

I am SO thankful for modern revelation and prophecy that allows us a true understanding of the nature of God (and the atonement, etc, etc). Without such, it is clear than any point can be argued by using the Bible alone, and we are then simply left to wonder or believe whatever we will.

Arguing using personal interpretations from the Bible is useless, and I for one am not interested in engaging in it (besides, I'm not that scholarly anyway ).

We are so lucky to have the guidance of the Spirit and of authorized mouthpieces, are we not?

[rameumptom]

Dust,

I can prove from the Bible that there will be future prophets, and the Bible does not close the book on them. Agabus was a prophet that Paul believed in, AFTER the death of Jesus!

And further out, John the Revelator foresaw in the last days two prophets giving their prophecy in Jerusalem during the last tribulations and Armageddon (Revelation 11). If there are no more prophets, then why have two in the last days?

Obviously it is because the Lord ALWAYS works through a specific pattern of prophets and apostles. Amos 3:7 tells us that God reveals his secrets only through prophets. Ephesians 2:19-20 tells us that the Church of God is built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets, and in Eph 4:11-14, Paul explains that we still need them until we "all come unto a unity of faith" and so we are not tossed about by every wind of doctrine.

Peter foresaw a "restitution of all things" to occur prior to the 2nd Coming of Christ, and that this Restoration was foreseen by all the prophets of old (Acts 3:19-21).

As I've noted before, the Bible often hints at things that require living prophets to explain in detail. This is the reason for a Restoration.

The issue isn't one of discussing or disputing different readings of the Bible, it is an issue of whether God has called true prophets and apostles in our day. If he hasn't, then you can continue on in your own interpretations of the Bible. But if God has called new prophets to prepare the way for the 2nd Coming, THEN all the world needs to give heed to them and stop trying to find logical reasonings to ignore or reject those prophets.

I believe it is as important to follow the modern prophets as it was to follow Noah in the days prior to the Flood. I have no doubt many philosophers and religionists of his day were convinced they no longer needed prophets, as they were doing just fine with their own ideologies and religions.

[rameumptom]

Well anyways, the day of Atonement has yet to come.

I believe that the atonement is an ongoing thing, not just a singular event. Its first nadir was at Gethsemane and on the Cross, but the final resurrection is yet to occur, and so there is much for the atonement to continue accomplishing for us.

Every time a person repents, the atonement is an active force to cleanse and purify that soul. This will be true long after we are dead, also.