Thought v. Action


ViolinGirl
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A friend and I were having a discussion today. He said that thinking about something sinful is as bad as actually doing it in God's eyes. For example, if I see an attractive man and have inappropriate thoughts about him, even though I didn't act on those thoughts, God still sees that as a sin.

What does everyone think?

It is a sin, however it was paid in full almost 2000 years ago. Repent and live in Grace. Thank you Jesus

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to quote what someone already put in an earlier post:

"Jesus taught (Matt 5:28)

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

Alma 12:14 says:

14 For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to chide us from his presence. "

the friend is only saying what the scriptures are teaching. are the scriptures wrong?

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the friend is only saying what the scriptures are teaching. are the scriptures wrong?

No - the scriptures are not wrong, but you are. The friend of the poster claimed that thinking it was AS BAD AS actually doing it. The scriptures, by contrast simply say that lusting after a woman is committing adultery in your heart. No mention is made about whether the gravity of the sin is equal. Any thinking human being knows that committing a sin in your heart is not as bad as actually doing it.

Wanna see what the Church thinks about it? In your next temple recommend interview, tell the bishop that your lusted after a woman. See if you can still get a recommend. On the other hand, tell him that you actually slept with your neighbor yesterday and see what happens - or tell him you killed your neighbor yesterday.

Two very different things.

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It is a sin, however it was paid in full almost 2000 years ago. Repent and live in Grace. Thank you Jesus

So if I sin today I don't need to worry about it because it was paid in full 2000 years ago?

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I think the sexual urge is ingrained into us as a survival mechanism for the species. To be without such thoughts would probably be indicative of some physical or psychological disorder or advanced old age. Look don't touch seems like a workable policy.

How about the sexual urge is ingrained into us for multiplying and replenishing the earth and creating emotional bonds with our spouse within the boundaries God has established. We may be partners with him in creation and need to learn as one of the greatest tests here on earth to control our thoughts, passions and desires.

To control those thoughts is not a disorder, just a part of progression to return to him.

Look don't touch seems like a workable policy of the destroyer, he knows once the cows get out of the pasture how hard they are to get back in the pasture.

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Yes

I know this isn't what you wrote originally, so I'm going to clarify what you say:

So if I sin today I don't need to worry about it

(Emphasis mine).

Yes, you do have to worry about it: Jim wrote that you have to repent.

Yes, the price was paid 2000 years ago. Yes, you should still work out your salvation with fear and trembling as per Philippians 2:12-13:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Long and short: It's a sin, but sin can be forgiven. You do need to repent, however.

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My biggest concern for "born again Christians" is their belief that they don't have to do anything to be saved.

Oddly enough, in their very next breath, they usually say, "all you have to do is repent."

Interesting.

Do nothing.

Repent.

Am I the only one that sees the flaw?

I have thought long and hard about this to try to help people who believe this way to understand. Since I live in the Bible Belt, it's important for me to understand this.

I have boiled it down to a misunderstanding of the word grace.

From what I understand, they seem to feel that God gives grace because He is loving and merciful, and that a person doesn't have to do anything to get this grace, or that a person cannot do anything to earn this grace. This is true, but they apply it to being saved, and not to the means whereby we are saved.

The most obvious question that they really can't anwer is that, if that is the case, why isn't everyone saved (saved in their view)?

To many, the answer is simply, "Because He chose us." It's like they need to feel they are safe with no action of their own. But, think about this logically.

The Bible never teaches grace is something you don't have to do anything to obtain.

John 1:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

No scripture is more clear that this power that He gives is for us to do something with. If we do nothing with it then we cannot become. In my more modern words, "Just because He built the bridge that allowed the gulf to be crossed does not mean we are placed on the other side without walking across it." If it were that simple, there would be no need of the bridge.

Yes, He provided the way; He alone; there is nothing we can do to provide the means on our own. But, if we don't use the means He provided, there is no other way across.

His grace was building the bridge, and then giving us a road map of how to get across it. Then, He placed markers along the way whereby we can plot and chart our course. Also, in a way incomprehensible to us, He uses His Spirit to help guide us along the path He made. What He cannot do is walk the path for you. If He could then all would be saved.

So, grace is not "free passage," but the passage He built and the help He gives to reach the destination. All these things He provided for us ARE the power He gives to us to become, or reach the other side.

I challenge anyone to come up with a scripture that says we don't have to keep the commandments, or there is nothing we have to do. You won't find it. All you will find is a false interpretation of scriptures that say we have to believe in God with all our might, mind, and strength... meaning we must do something about it.

You see, without the bridge, markers, and spiritual help, our works mean nothing. But, with God's help, all things are possible. The power He gives us through His grace DOES allow us to reach the other side.

Edited by Justice
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i guess we just see it two different ways. Jesus said it is adultery and the bom teaches that 'Men are judged by their thoughts.' agree to disagree then?

Please be more careful reading the Book of Mormon. I believe it speaks of the "thought of one's heart" not every thought that occurs in one's head.

The Traveler

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I am one of the "born-again" believers that you speak of, that someone earlier kindof poked fun at, "I believe, I believe, praise hallelujah!" Yep. That's me. You challenged us to find some verses that tell us there's nothing we have to do, or that tell us we don't have to keep the commandments. I believe that scripture says that if we love Him, we WILL keep His commandments (John 14:15)--but I believe just that; I try to keep His commandments out of my love for Him, not as a way of earning my salvation.

Titus 3:4,5a "But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy."

Romans 4:1-5 "What shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. What does the scripture say? 'Abraham believed God ("I believe, I believe, praise, hallellujah!), and it was credited to him as righteousness.' Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

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It's interesting how the only scriptures that are ever brought up are the ones that say works are required.

But, if you don't keep His commandments can you claim you love Him?

What does the scriptures say? It calls those people hypocrites and liars.

Keeping His commandments requires doing something. It requires works to love your neighbor.

I agree that these works don't earn your salvation, as I said Christ built that bridge.

But, without those good works the grace of Christ become inoperative in you. Because His grace is what gives you the power to become. Just as the scripture I quoted in John 1 says.

Abraham is used as an example because he had faith. He was not under the law of Moses, or "the works of the law." When they say works they are referring to the works of the Law of Moses.

Today people think this means we don't have to do the works of Christ's law. If you read the New Testament that just isn't so. James chapter 2 is perfectly clear.

Don't be fooled by the scriptures that teach we don't have to do the works of the Law of Moses as saying we don't have to exercise faith in Christ by keeping His commandments. It's one of the most common misinterpretations I see in the Bible.

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i guess we just see it two different ways. Jesus said it is adultery and the bom teaches that 'Men are judged by their thoughts.' agree to disagree then?

Not exactly. The unknown author of Matthew who never met Jesus says that Jesus said that it is 'adultery in your heart.' Obviously adultery in your heart is not adultery. It is something different.

And yes, we (me and the Church), disagree with you.

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My biggest concern for "born again Christians" is their belief that they don't have to do anything to be saved.

Oddly enough, in their very next breath, they usually say, "all you have to do is repent."

Interesting.

Do nothing.

Repent.

Am I the only one that sees the flaw?

No, you're not the only one. It is a glaring flaw.

Depending on the evangelical in question is goes like this to obtain salvation.

Do nothing.

Except believe.

Oh yeah - and repent.

And I forgot - and not be Mormon.

and... etc, etc, etc.

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I am one of the "born-again" believers that you speak of, that someone earlier kindof poked fun at, "I believe, I believe, praise hallelujah!" Yep. That's me. You challenged us to find some verses that tell us there's nothing we have to do, or that tell us we don't have to keep the commandments. I believe that scripture says that if we love Him, we WILL keep His commandments (John 14:15)--but I believe just that; I try to keep His commandments out of my love for Him, not as a way of earning my salvation.

Titus 3:4,5a "But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy."

Romans 4:1-5 "What shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. What does the scripture say? 'Abraham believed God ("I believe, I believe, praise, hallellujah!), and it was credited to him as righteousness.' Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

Which doesn't address the issue. Regardless of your motivation, do you actually have to obey God or not?

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Which doesn't address the issue. Regardless of your motivation, do you actually have to obey God or not?

Actually the ancient purpose of the phrase, hallelujah contradicts the concept of being saved by grace outside of “obedience” to covenants and laws given by G-d. For example the scriptures tell us that regardless of our acceptance of G-d and his grace – unless or until we are willing to do the works of forgiving others we cannot be forgiven. But we all know what Jesus said about those that “will” not (do the works to) hear. I think your words fall on death ears.

The Traveler

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I can't believe the rudeness and disrespect I've seen in the past few pages. Can we drop the "what do you have to do to be saved" arguing? It's so contentious and has very little to do with the OP.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Entertaining sinful thoughts is a sin- though not as grievous a sin as committing the sin (in most cases). To be tempted is not to sin- Christ was tempted in all things, yet he never sinned. However, a single impure thought is enough to bar us from heaven, for "no unclean thing" can enter into the Father's presence. All our sinful thoughts will need to be repented of.

Lusting after a women is still categorically adultery, but of a different caliber than committing adultery in real life. This is, I believe, what Christ was teaching.

Thoughts --> Behaviors --> Habits --> Character --> Destiny. Ultimately, we only have control over what thoughts we let into our hearts and which thoughts we entertain in our minds.

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My biggest concern for "born again Christians" is their belief that they don't have to do anything to be saved.

Oddly enough, in their very next breath, they usually say, "all you have to do is repent."

Interesting.

Do nothing.

Repent.

Am I the only one that sees the flaw?

I have thought long and hard about this to try to help people who believe this way to understand. Since I live in the Bible Belt, it's important for me to understand this.

I have boiled it down to a misunderstanding of the word grace.

From what I understand, they seem to feel that God gives grace because He is loving and merciful, and that a person doesn't have to do anything to get this grace, or that a person cannot do anything to earn this grace. This is true, but they apply it to being saved, and not to the means whereby we are saved.

The most obvious question that they really can't anwer is that, if that is the case, why isn't everyone saved (saved in their view)?

To many, the answer is simply, "Because He chose us." It's like they need to feel they are safe with no action of their own. But, think about this logically.

The Bible never teaches grace is something you don't have to do anything to obtain.

John 1:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

No scripture is more clear that this power that He gives is for us to do something with. If we do nothing with it then we cannot become. In my more modern words, "Just because He built the bridge that allowed the gulf to be crossed does not mean we are placed on the other side without walking across it." If it were that simple, there would be no need of the bridge.

Yes, He provided the way; He alone; there is nothing we can do to provide the means on our own. But, if we don't use the means He provided, there is no other way across.

His grace was building the bridge, and then giving us a road map of how to get across it. Then, He placed markers along the way whereby we can plot and chart our course. Also, in a way incomprehensible to us, He uses His Spirit to help guide us along the path He made. What He cannot do is walk the path for you. If He could then all would be saved.

So, grace is not "free passage," but the passage He built and the help He gives to reach the destination. All these things He provided for us ARE the power He gives to us to become, or reach the other side.

I challenge anyone to come up with a scripture that says we don't have to keep the commandments, or there is nothing we have to do. You won't find it. All you will find is a false interpretation of scriptures that say we have to believe in God with all our might, mind, and strength... meaning we must do something about it.

You see, without the bridge, markers, and spiritual help, our works mean nothing. But, with God's help, all things are possible. The power He gives us through His grace DOES allow us to reach the other side.

My biggest concern for "born again Christians" is their belief that they don't have to do anything to be saved.

Not true, you have to believe in Jesus. Grace comes the moment you believe and it is done. The problem here is that the "Good News" is "almost" to good to be true. But, it is true. Jesus did it all. When you say Jesus "and"...... something else, you take away from Jesus. When you believe in Jesus you believe that he is God, Christ, Born of a virgin and rose from the dead. You must also believe in His teachings. No, you do not understand "born again".

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My biggest concern for "born again Christians" is their belief that they don't have to do anything to be saved.

Not true, you have to believe in Jesus. Grace comes the moment you believe and it is done. The problem here is that the "Good News" is "almost" to good to be true. But, it is true. Jesus did it all. When you say Jesus "and"...... something else, you take away from Jesus. When you believe in Jesus you believe that he is God, Christ, Born of a virgin and rose from the dead. You must also believe in His teachings. No, you do not understand "born again".

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So Jim, does one have to be baptized and observe what Christ has commanded or was he just kidding?

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This story about justice and mercy in the Aaronic Priesthood manual explains it very well:

“Let me tell you a story—a parable.

“There once was a man who wanted something very much. It seemed more important than anything else in his life. In order for him to have his desire, he incurred a great debt.

“He had been warned about going into that much debt, and particularly about his creditor. But it seemed so important for him to do what he wanted to do and to have what he wanted right now. He was sure he could pay for it later.

“So he signed a contract. He would pay it off some time along the way. He didn’t worry too much about it, for the due date seemed such a long time away. He had what he wanted now, and that was what seemed important.

“The creditor was always somewhere in the back of his mind, and he made token payments now and again, thinking somehow that the day of reckoning really would never come.

“But as it always does, the day came, and the contract fell due. The debt had not been fully paid. His creditor appeared and demanded payment in full.

“Only then did he realize that his creditor not only had the power to repossess all that he owned, but the power to cast him into prison as well.

“ ‘I cannot pay you, for I have not the power to do so,’ he confessed.

“ ‘Then,’ said the creditor, ‘we will exercise the contract, take your possessions, and you shall go to prison. You agreed to that. It was your choice. You signed the contract, and now it must be enforced.’

“ ‘Can you not extend the time or forgive the debt?’ the debtor begged. ‘Arrange some way for me to keep what I have and not go to prison. Surely you believe in mercy? Will you not show mercy?’

“The creditor replied, ‘Mercy is always so one-sided. It would serve only you. If I show mercy to you, it will leave me unpaid. It is justice I demand. Do you believe in justice?’

“ ‘I believed in justice when I signed the contract,’ the debtor said. ‘It was on my side then, for I thought it would protect me. I did not need mercy then, nor think I should need it ever. Justice, I thought, would serve both of us equally as well.’

“ ‘It is justice that demands that you pay the contract or suffer the penalty,’ the creditor replied. ‘That is the law. You have agreed to it and that is the way it must be. Mercy cannot rob justice.’

“There they were: One meting out justice, the other pleading for mercy. Neither could prevail except at the expense of the other.

“ ‘If you do not forgive the debt there will be no mercy,’ the debtor pleaded.

“ ‘If I do, there will be no justice,’ was the reply.

“Both laws, it seemed, could not be served. They are two eternal ideals that appear to contradict one another. Is there no way for justice to be fully served, and mercy also?

“There is a way! The law of justice can be fully satisfied and mercy can be fully extended—but it takes someone else. And so it happened this time.

“The debtor had a friend. He came to help. He knew the debtor well. He knew him to be shortsighted. He thought him foolish to have gotten himself into such a predicament. Nevertheless, he wanted to help because he loved him. He stepped between them, faced the creditor, and made this offer.

“ ‘I will pay the debt if you will free the debtor from his contract so that he may keep his possessions and not go to prison.’

“As the creditor was pondering the offer, the mediator added, ‘You demanded justice. Though he cannot pay you, I will do so. You will have been justly dealt with and can ask no more. It would not be just.’

“And so the creditor agreed.

“The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’

“ ‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You save me from prison and show mercy to me.’

“ ‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.’

“And so it was that the creditor was paid in full. He had been justly dealt with. No contract had been broken.

“The debtor, in turn, had been extended mercy. Both laws stood fulfilled. Because there was a mediator, justice had claimed its full share, and mercy was fully satisfied” .

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So Jim, does one have to be baptized and observe what Christ has commanded or was he just kidding?

For salvation none of this is required, however I do not know one Born Again who has not been baptized and who does not "try" to do what Christ commands. We always come up short, but we try. Salvation is not earned, it is given when we first believe by Grace. Nothing by my hands is enough to earn salvation. Jesus alone is enough. Thank you Jesus.

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