prisonchaplain Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 So, why do some have it and others not?God offers these gifts freely to all. TO ALL.I'm not trying to be difficult, but I really don't see how you can say they "do these things" but they don't do anything. I really don't know what else to say. You say accepting Christ, receiving his gift, is work. Since some don't and others do, those that do DESERVE their salvation??? You define a work in such a way that I suppose even breathing heavily would count. Just maybe "works of righteousness" that Paul had in mind were more in line with the 613 Laws of Moses, and the various mitzvahs of Judaism, rather than merely saying, "Okay, LORD, save my life?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lattelady Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Don't you think that there is a "bottom line" at which Christ will be the judge of who truly believes and who does not--and is therefore worthy of eternal life? If works were the basis by which we were saved, how many are enough? 5 good works? 10? 1000 for a lifetime? What if a person only lived to age 15? What if there were lots of sins mixed in with the good works? My point is, there are many variables and they don't matter; the one thing that seems to matter according to scripture is coming to God through His Son Jesus "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life--no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." And it's our faith in Him--not a belief in the mental sense ("I know there is a God"), but a true heart belief, an acknowledgement that Christ is who He says He is (the Son of God, God made flesh), and that He did what He said He did, and can DO what He says He can do--for ME!.--it's that faith that can save me: faith in the work He finished for me--His death, burial, and raising from the dead by the power of God. It really strikes me every time I think about Jesus hanging on the cross with two criminals beside him; and one of the criminals recognizes Jesus for who He really is--not just some good man, or a great teacher, or just another criminal like himself, but God's Son, when he said, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:42,43) I love those verses because that criminal would die that day. How much time did he have to do "good works" to earn his salvation? How many good works did he do so that his salvation would be secure? How would he prove to Jesus that his faith was real? Because Jesus knew His heart, like He knows the hearts of all men. That's why He can say, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Romans 10:9,10 We are justified before God because He knows our hearts. Our belief is not a work. Our belief is what God can see by looking into our hearts. The good works that we do as a byproduct of our faith are what others can see. God sees, the very moment we put our trust in Him, that we believe and take Him at His word. We're saying: I believe You, God! I trust You! I don't believe those are works any more than trusting my husbands vows to me on our wedding day would be works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyTown Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) But the problem with that, PC, is that we aren't assuming predestination.Regardless of if a person CAN choose to follow God, God knows if they WILL choose. He is all knowing from beginning to end and knows how everything will turn out for everyone. I believe this. I also believe in free agency.However, the question still stands: Since God knows if someone will be Damned before they are created, why create them? Why NOT just create those people he knows will make the right choices?Because if he creates someone, knowing he will be Damned, then he is creating someone FOR Damnation, since he could simply choose not to create that particular person. In this case, even one person would be too much, but the fact is that 2/3rds of the world are not Christian and do not accept Jesus Christ as their saviour.God knows what will happen to them. He knows what choices they'll make: Why create someone at all if he knows they will be Damned?And if God creates a person, knowing that person will be Damned before he even puts hand to the stuff of creation to make this person, then that person has received the free gift of Damnation: Being created by someone who knows that, the ball rolling in motion as it is now, will end up plummetting off a cliff and descending in to Hell.You presume predestination here...that we are incapable of choosing to follow God. Scripture tells us that whosoever will may come. Whoever believes in Jesus will be saved. Choose this day whom you will serve. Repent for the time is at hand! We are capable of accepting God's gift--everyone is. Do you not call this free agency? Are you questioning God? He gives us free will. Everyone is capable of loving him. Those who willfully reject their Creator have no excuse. Romans 1 declares that man is without execuse.A human without free agency is not human. God wanted humans.If we could not fail then we would not be human. Edited October 2, 2009 by FunkyTown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyTown Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 I really don't know what else to say. You say accepting Christ, receiving his gift, is work. Since some don't and others do, those that do DESERVE their salvation??? You define a work in such a way that I suppose even breathing heavily would count. Just maybe "works of righteousness" that Paul had in mind were more in line with the 613 Laws of Moses, and the various mitzvahs of Judaism, rather than merely saying, "Okay, LORD, save my life?"And I would agree with this, PC. This post also made me laugh out loud at work, so points for that.However, here is where issues occur between denominations: Establishing truth on scriptural railsplits. Some people will chant, 'Works not required for salvation' as if saying no action at all is required, which invalidates the need for Baptism - Which even Jesus Christ felt the need for. Others will set churches by a singular rule: That the Sabbath is holy and so they have church on Saturday. Others will establish truth by a third scripture, ignoring every other scripture out there. Every denomination accuses every other of doing this. The truth is that most people do this because the Bible is complex and the Gospel deceptively simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lattelady Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 "the Gospel DECEPTIVELY simple"? What do you mean by that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 (edited) Justice, believing in Christ, receiving the gift of salvation, repenting of sins...these are not works. They are realizations. We don't buy our salvation. We don't pay for it. We get it, and then work it out. Who is doing the realization? If someone is doing something - why is that not considered part of their "works", and if someone is doing the reallizing do they earn something that someone not doing the realizing does not earn and therefor recieve. I am still trying to understand. I would like to find some way to have common understanding. So lets us try together to understand something. Is being forgiven of sins part of salvation?According to my understanding it is not possible for man to be saved or expect salvation without being forgiven of their sins. Now, so we can be very clear on this point of forgivness - Must there be the works of forgiving others "BEFORE" we can or will be forgiven by G-d? It is important to understand that Jesus has already paid for sins. So if we believe in him but just cannot forgive one very bad thing - does G-d forgive us anyway and we get the gift of salvation? It is my understanding that Jesus taught very clearly that those that do not forgive will not be forgiven. Do we earn G-d's forgiveness by forgiving?The Traveler Edited October 2, 2009 by Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted October 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Don't you think that there is a "bottom line" at which Christ will be the judge of who truly believes and who does not--and is therefore worthy of eternal life? If works were the basis by which we were saved, how many are enough? 5 good works? 10? 1000 for a lifetime? What if a person only lived to age 15? What if there were lots of sins mixed in with the good works? My point is, there are many variables and they don't matter; the one thing that seems to matter according to scripture is coming to God through His Son Jesus "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life--no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." And it's our faith in Him--not a belief in the mental sense ("I know there is a God"), but a true heart belief, an acknowledgement that Christ is who He says He is (the Son of God, God made flesh), and that He did what He said He did, and can DO what He says He can do--for ME!.--it's that faith that can save me: faith in the work He finished for me--His death, burial, and raising from the dead by the power of God. It really strikes me every time I think about Jesus hanging on the cross with two criminals beside him; and one of the criminals recognizes Jesus for who He really is--not just some good man, or a great teacher, or just another criminal like himself, but God's Son, when he said, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:42,43) I love those verses because that criminal would die that day. How much time did he have to do "good works" to earn his salvation? How many good works did he do so that his salvation would be secure? How would he prove to Jesus that his faith was real? Because Jesus knew His heart, like He knows the hearts of all men. That's why He can say, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Romans 10:9,10 We are justified before God because He knows our hearts. Our belief is not a work. Our belief is what God can see by looking into our hearts. The good works that we do as a byproduct of our faith are what others can see. God sees, the very moment we put our trust in Him, that we believe and take Him at His word. We're saying: I believe You, God! I trust You! I don't believe those are works any more than trusting my husbands vows to me on our wedding day would be works.You confuse salvation with Eternal Life.(from an LDS standpoint) You are quite correct, we can't earn our salvation, it is a free gift to all mankind. However, when LDS refer to Eternal Life they are referring to something different than orthodox Christian understanding. Eternal Life means to become an exalted being and return to live with Heavenly Father and become joint heirs with Christ and have Eternal increase.....to progress forever, to enjoy the same type of life that God the Father lives and enjoys. "In my Father's house are many mansions, I go there to prepare one for you......" The mansion you obtain, the glory you receive, the kingdom you inherit will depend on how valiant you were in your testimony of Christ. All men will be resurrected, to live for ever. Where they live depends on other factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Most evangelicals believe that water baptism is one of the first acts of obedience for a convert. In other words, it's not a prerequisite, but rather an initial rite of the redeemed.As for the confirmation of the Holy Spirit, most of us would say that conversion brings the presence of the Holy Spirit. We pentecostals believe that the baptism in the Holy Ghost is a second work of grace, one that usually occurs subsequent to conversion, and is accompanied by speaking in tongues. Others disagree, but we all agree that the Holy Spirit does journey with converts.I'm sorry, I did not read anything past this post. I just wanted to throw a quick question to PC...PC, so, if I understand this correctly, evangelicals believe that baptism and confirmation is not a REQUIRED ordinance for salvation, right? Since you can be saved even if you haven't been baptized or confirmed? (i.e., those good folks who belong to a church who do not practice baptism, the people born in an era where priesthood authority for baptism did not exist, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim108 Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 People who say they deserve salvation are not christians. Christians know they do not deserve salvation. Salvation is not earned, it is a gift of God for those who believe. Jesus did it all. To say that we need to add to what Jesus has done takes away from Jesus. Once you believe in Jesus then the works come. Works however do not earn salvation. We can do nothing by our own hands to earn it. The focus should always be on Jesus. We are dead without Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 I know what you're saying, Jim, PC...But, answer the questions...If God alone is responsible for salvation, why is there even hell? Is God not good enough to save that man? Were Christ's works not good enough to save that man?Why are some not saved if Christ's works are ALL that is needed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Seminary...salvation for evangelicals means our sins are forgiven and we are heaven-bound. Recall that for us there is only heaven and hell. While there may be degrees of reward in heaven, it's all still one kingdom. Salvation is a beginning, not the end.When LDS speak of salvation, my impression is that they combine both evangelical salvation (conversion) AND progressive sanctification (growing in holiness/righteousness and enduring to the end).PC, what is the purpose of "progressive sanctification" if you are already saved? Why grow if you are already there? Please tell me what you think is 'progressive sanctification', and why does that matter to you. What would happen if you weren't progressively sanctified? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 People who say they deserve salvation are not christians. Christians know they do not deserve salvation. Salvation is not earned, it is a gift of God for those who believe. Jesus did it all. To say that we need to add to what Jesus has done takes away from Jesus. Once you believe in Jesus then the works come. Works however do not earn salvation. We can do nothing by our own hands to earn it. The focus should always be on Jesus. We are dead without Him.Yes, the feeling of deserving something is the root of evil. LDS believe that was Satan's plan, telling everyone you deserve all that God has without doing anything, that sounds attractive, thats why, we believe, a third of the host of heaven bought that idea. In fact, that is one of the main themes of the Book of Mormon, once a people start to believe they deserve something (proud of there own power), that leads to destruction. Lamen and Lemuel hated Nephi, because they thought they deserved more than Nephi as they were the older brothers, almost like the story of Cain and Abel. A feeling of deserving is far from any faithful LDS member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 I'm sorry, I did not read anything past this post. I just wanted to throw a quick question to PC...PC, so, if I understand this correctly, evangelicals believe that baptism and confirmation is not a REQUIRED ordinance for salvation, right? Since you can be saved even if you haven't been baptized or confirmed? (i.e., those good folks who belong to a church who do not practice baptism, the people born in an era where priesthood authority for baptism did not exist, etc.). That is correct. Most of us who affirm "believer's baptism," see it as something done by those already converted. So, it is an ordinance, one of only two that we have (Lord's Supper or Holy Communion being the other). So, it's important. We "follow the Lord in baptism." But, the waters don't save. We are saved by grace through faith. Baptism testifies to our salvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 PC, what is the purpose of "progressive sanctification" if you are already saved? Why grow if you are already there? Please tell me what you think is 'progressive sanctification', and why does that matter to you. What would happen if you weren't progressively sanctified? Salvation is conversion. It's not being "already there." It's beginning the life. Progressive sanctification then is our progress and maturing in the new life of Christ. Your question would be like asking why we bother feeding babies since they are already born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 I know what you're saying, Jim, PC...But, answer the questions...If God alone is responsible for salvation, why is there even hell? Is God not good enough to save that man? Were Christ's works not good enough to save that man?Why are some not saved if Christ's works are ALL that is needed?Justice, your question has been answered several times. But we'll keep trying.9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed....13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10)M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted October 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Justice, your question has been answered several times. But we'll keep trying.9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed....13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10)M.The scriptures you quote don't answer Justice's question. So, what about those that die without hearing the Gospel, without any knowledge of Christ? What about those that died before Christ? How do they obtain salvation? Can they? Or are they damned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Maureen, I see several things listed in those scriptures that a man must do in order to be saved. I'm asking how that scripture, and the belief that you don't have to do anything to be saved, can agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 I like an action oriented approach to Christianity. You are blessed for saying the right things, but even more blessed for doing the right things. Peace and Moon Rocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.I especially want to point out this verse.The whole reason the Bible says a man must believe in Christ is so that the man will change from a man of sin to a man of righteousness. This is belief unto righteousness. You believe so you do.If you do not do then you do not believe.Luke 6: 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Together with yours and mine, I can post many more scriptures that show Christ is teaching a belief that leads to action. To think it does not require action is a misunderstanding of the word believe in the Bible when its related to being saved.John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14: 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. It's not a list of works (many try to use that false logic against this belief) but it's a willingness to do seek the Kingdom of God first. It doesn't mean you have to be perfect, but it does mean you have to repent and keep trying when you fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Salvation is conversion. It's not being "already there." It's beginning the life. Progressive sanctification then is our progress and maturing in the new life of Christ. Your question would be like asking why we bother feeding babies since they are already born.Seems like we believe more similar than everyone is making it out to be, its just we use different terms for certain steps. The reason its hard to talk about is that as PC stated, Protestants and Catholics do not believe in pre-earthly life. LDS believe all the souls that are here in this life are those that believed in Jesus' plan, and not satan's and so everyone here will be saved from this earthly existence by His grace, we will all be resurrected, which is more or less your description of salvation. Yes, we believe that everyone here gets that for free, just by being here. But those that didn't believe in Jesus' plan like Satan, wont receive that. And your description of "progressive sanctification" sounds a lot like what will happen with the various degrees of glory. We just use different terms. It sounds like what you are saying is that the 'progressive sanctification' or for us 'making it to the Celestial Kingdom' takes work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Seminary...As best I can tell, you've hit the nail on the head. The doctrine of premortal existence effects our beliefs about salvation, grace, God's nature, so many of these teachings are intertwined. There is a teaching I give from time to time, and it is in my blogs that basically speaks of salvation as a past event, an on-going experience, and a future climax. See: Personal Beliefs » LDS Mormon Network Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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