beefche Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 I'm really curious now...how is Ephesians 2:8-9 understood in the LDS explanation of the Plan of Salvation?From this talk:Grace is a “divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.” It is “an enabling power.” (Bible Dictionary, p. 697.) The doctrine of the grace of the Father and the Son and how it affects us is so significant that it is mentioned more than two hundred times in the standard works. If we can obtain the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, that divine enabling power to assist us, we will triumph in this life and be exalted in the life to come.From this talk:Draw on the Merciful Grace of GodThe Lord promised us through the prophet Moroni: “If men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them” (Ether 12:27).There are several interesting things about this scripture. First is that the Lord gives us weaknesses—not sin, but weaknesses—so that we may be humble. Think about that for a moment. If we were perfect in every respect, it would be hard to be humble. Even in specific things, humility comes harder to those who are very strong in one area or another. The woman or man who is remarkably beautiful or handsome can easily become proud of her or his appearance. A brilliant scholar may look down in condescension on those less intellectually blessed. Our weaknesses help us to be humble.Then comes the promise. If we are willing to humble ourselves, then, as it says, “my grace is sufficient.” In the Bible Dictionary, grace is defined as an “enabling power” (697). Can you see the significance of that promise?One of the signs of our day is how frequently we use the word addiction to describe destructive behavior. We talk about being addicted to alcohol, to drugs, to pornography. These are all insidious and powerful evils. Jesus warned His disciples that “whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin” (John 8:34). Alma used a similar metaphor when he warned us about the “chains of hell” (Alma 12:11).One of the most devastating effects of sin is that it weakens you, binds you, brings you down to slavery. The grace of God and of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, is the answer to that predicament. If you will but humble yourselves and turn to Them, then Their grace, Their enabling power, can not only help you throw off the chains of sin but actually turn your weaknesses into strengths.Brothers and sisters, how I long to have the reality of that promise sink into your hearts. Are you struggling with some sin or weakness? It can be something as simple as not having the willpower to rise in the morning early enough to have time for scripture study and prayer. It can be something so powerful, such as Internet pornography or lack of moral self-control, that you feel you have been pulled down into an abyss and there is no hope for you. Do you find yourself hating what you are doing but not able to find the willpower to turn away from it? Then reach out and humble yourself. The Lord’s enabling power is sufficient to change your heart, to turn your life, to purge your soul. But you must make the first move, which is to humble yourself and realize that only in God can you find deliverance.Thanks, PC, for making me look this up. I have a better understanding of grace after my little bit of research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Traveler, my reply was not really focusing on the words "His terms" but on the words "we still have to pay Jesus back". A gift like salvation is not something that can be "paid back". We either accept it or we don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 You've never heard of the phrase "pay it forward" ... a gift was taken, paid in kind (but in a different way) to someone else. That idea is not absurd. I agree that the gift of salvation cannot be paid back by us. That is why we need a savior. To be able to make something good out of our fallen state. I believe in a God that does not do anything save it be ultimately for good. If God gave us a gift that results in nothing returned (think of the "usery" mentioned in the story of the ten talents) then the result of creating us and this world is a net negative. My God created us and this world knowing that the net sum of good outweighs his original investment. Just like sending your kids to college, that gift would mean nothing if all they did were to party all day and didn't take advantage of the rules and plan set out by the professors. In that example it is a gift paid back by following the instruction of the professors and ultimately results in more than the actual cost of the University. .... Maureen, I agree with what you say, just take it one step further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 In most cases, I'd suggest that salvation comes first. Why do people embrace salvation? They want to go to heaven, they don't want to go to hell, and the idea of a clean slate before the Creator is very attractive. In the process of conversion--of receiving salvation, the reality becomes apparent. "We love Him because He first loved us." Then, both our natural and our Spirit-empowered REACTION will be to return love.OK.My point is, does God not love those who will not be saved also?So, if God loved them, and offered them this gift, why are they then not "saved?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Thanks, PC, for making me look this up. I have a better understanding of grace after my little bit of research. You are welcome. From that talk I almost gather the evangelical belief that salvation brings the spiritual power to live righteously, do good--but these come through faith and humility. This is what we believe--good works come out of our salvation experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 OK.My point is, does God not love those who will not be saved also?So, if God loved them, and offered them this gift, why are they then not "saved?" Because they wouldn't take it. They did not love God, and would not be associated with Him. Their rejection is rebellion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 But, those who are saved didn't do anything either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 No they didn't. They just took it. Received it. Embraced it. And, in so doing, fell in love with their Creator, were reconciled, empowered, and had their lives changed. They loved God, and their neighbor. Under God's power, they obeyed Christ's commands--and they changed the world. And they'll continue doing so until the trump sounds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 So, they did DO something that the others didn't. From the sound of it they worked many works. When you say you don't have to do anything but accept it; embrace it; loved God; and were changed, it means they did something the others did not. If you say they did those things, yet they didn't do anything it's very confusing to me. Why the fear in saying they did something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 So, they did DO something that the others didn't.From the sound of it they worked many works.When you say you don't have to do anything but accept it; embrace it; loved God; and were changed, it means they did something the others did not. If you say they did those things, yet they didn't do anything it's very confusing to me.Why the fear in saying they did something?Accepting a gift is not "work". It is simply an acceptance of something that is given. When you accept a gift given by a friend, is your acceptance of that gift something that you laboured at? I doubt it. It is not fear that makes me not agree that faith (acceptance) is not work. I say faith is not work because that is being honest. Faith is something you do with your heart and mind, it benefits our relationship with God. Work is outward and is for the benefit of the observer, as a witness of God's power to change.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 So, they did DO something that the others didn't.From the sound of it they worked many works.When you say you don't have to do anything but accept it; embrace it; loved God; and were changed, it means they did something the others did not. If you say they did those things, yet they didn't do anything it's very confusing to me.Why the fear in saying they did something? Justice, do you really think you can impress God, apart from his grace? What deed was it that so appeased God that He withdrew from you the wages of sin? Was it your tithe? Your keeping of the WoW. Those six months when you handled three simultaneous church callings? Where's the line you crossed at which God said, "Ah...now I can release Justice from the death sentence?"You're braver than I am all right. Stark, unabashed fear is what I have towards the notion of claiming that any of my labors could appease God. Only Christ's shed blood could pay for my sins.Works are a product of salvation, not a payment for it. I don't know how us to say it, how to explain it. God Almighty God is not impressed with our self-righteous deeds. That was Jesus' main message to the Pharisees. On the other hand...empowered by the Holy Spirit, freed from the sentence for sin...I'll do more for God then all the self-powered efforts to appease God combined. If God be for me, who can be against me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 You can impress GOD PC...it starts with the three basic principles after man[woman] acceptance of the Son and its required ordinance. The three are GRATITUDE, OBEDIENCE, and surrendering your WILL to the FATHER. If this is the thought and desire of this man [woman], you will stand in GOD presence. Others without these basic three principles stand not in GOD's presence. Even the Holy Ghost becomes a friend to that individual on a daily basis.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Why is it that accepting a free gift and works have to be mutually exclusive? If I give my friend a car, they accept it and it just sits in their driveway because she doesn't drive. She accepted the gift ... but it serves no purpose and doesn't really mean anything unless she drives the car. Or if I pay for my sons college and he accepts it freely, no strings attached ... I gave it to him, not as a reward, just free, it still means nothing if he doesn't 'work' the gift. He would still have to study and listen to the professors to mean something. I guess what I am saying is I don't see how a free gift no longer becomes free if you still have to do something to make it significant. What is so hard to understand about that? An 'opportunity' that was not an opportunity previously can be a free gift. If a friend buys you a gift from IKEA that you have to put together yourself, do you say; "thanks for nothing!"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemidakota Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 I think it is more of showing love for those who you give the gift too. Perhaps that is my understanding of being a receiver of such. With my own family, it is always a response of gratitude in receiving the gift. However, I agree, there is no work require with receiving a gift. For those who do give gratitude will seek to please its giver. Have you noticed this affect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 I can see where seminarysnoozer is coming from though. We have the gift of the atonement...but if we do nothing in this life to show gratitude...just take it for granted..if we don't show love by the things we do in return..it makes the gift in some ways rather a moot point. We can show gratitude and love to our Heavenly Father and to Jesus Christ for this gift by giving and helping others, by providing service, by teaching the gospel, by a number of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Why is it that accepting a free gift and works have to be mutually exclusive? Because it's one or the other. Either you paid for salvation with your works OR it was a free gift. It can't be both. You either earned it, or it was gifted to you.So, this is a matter of order. Righteous works are born out of salvation, and are the fruit of a life lived in grateful submission to God, and to the empowering of his Spirit.If I give my friend a car, they accept it and it just sits in their driveway because she doesn't drive. She accepted the gift ... but it serves no purpose and doesn't really mean anything unless she drives the car. Or if I pay for my sons college and he accepts it freely, no strings attached ... I gave it to him, not as a reward, just free, it still means nothing if he doesn't 'work' the gift. He would still have to study and listen to the professors to mean something.I guess what I am saying is I don't see how a free gift no longer becomes free if you still have to do something to make it significant. What is so hard to understand about that? An 'opportunity' that was not an opportunity previously can be a free gift.If a friend buys you a gift from IKEA that you have to put together yourself, do you say; "thanks for nothing!"? I totally agree with this part. In order for the gift of salvation to become significant in our lives we must work it out, daily, with fear and trembling. BUT, in your example, the gift is already ours. It was given. We did nothing to get it. It is unearned. The question is...what will we do with it?I'm wondering if LDS teaching includes the TOTAL DEPRAVITY of humanity, apart from Christ's salvation. Apart from Jesus, we are incapable of pleasing God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 I'm wondering if LDS teaching includes the TOTAL DEPRAVITY of humanity, apart from Christ's salvation. Apart from Jesus, we are incapable of pleasing God.No, I think, most LDS believe we are born with some light of Christ within us. By the age of 8 we already start to know right from wrong without being exposed to any religion at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 follow up .... I wasn't familiar with that term, "Total Depravity" but we do believe the natural man is an enemy to God. To understand our beliefs about that you have to carefully designate whether you are talking about 'man' the physical body or 'man' the soul of man. Our physical body is fallen from what God created in Adam and Eve. And as such it has no potential by itself. It is only when it is combined with a spirit that gives it potential, through Jesus'. Our physical body is dust and will return to dust without divine intervention. The spirit is willing but the body is weak. .... not sure if that's what you were getting at. PC, do you believe we existed as individuals before coming here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Justice, do you really think you can impress God, apart from his grace? What deed was it that so appeased God that He withdrew from you the wages of sin? Was it your tithe? Your keeping of the WoW. Those six months when you handled three simultaneous church callings? Where's the line you crossed at which God said, "Ah...now I can release Justice from the death sentence?"I understand the question. But, remember, I never said any of our works can release us from sin. I don't believe that. Without Christ all are lost and fallen.But, my point is that if a man does nothing, He is no different than the heathen.What makes a man a believer? How do you know a man is a believer?It's what he does.If you do not do you can't claim to be a believer.You're braver than I am all right. Stark, unabashed fear is what I have towards the notion of claiming that any of my labors could appease God. Only Christ's shed blood could pay for my sins.Again, I never said anything but Christ's blood could atone for sin. I'm not brave, I just don't see how doing nothing can, on one hand accept His grace, and other the other reject it.Works are a product of salvation, not a payment for it. I don't know how us to say it, how to explain it. God Almighty God is not impressed with our self-righteous deeds. That was Jesus' main message to the Pharisees."Works are a product of salvation..." Here is where my words are directed. If we do nothing, and God is 100% responsible for our believing, then why can't He save all men, even unbelievers? He can make them believe just as He made us believe.On the other hand...empowered by the Holy Spirit, freed from the sentence for sin...I'll do more for God then all the self-powered efforts to appease God combined. If God be for me, who can be against me?PC, this is no different in my view. But, I believe we are empowered little by little; line upon line. We are not "done" when we accept Christ into our hearts. Many commit that they would die for Christ. A one time decision to die for Him is not what He wants. He wants us to live for Him every day.We know we live for Him by what we do, not by what we believe. The Bible is very clear on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 "Works are a product of salvation..." Here is where my words are directed. If we do nothing, and God is 100% responsible for our believing, then why can't He save all men, even unbelievers? He can make them believe just as He made us believe.God does not force people to believe. He offers us his gift and it is our choice if we will accept his gift or not. I don't see why that is so hard to understand. You do believe in free will, agency don't you? God seeks us out, but he does not force us to accept him.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim108 Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 The works you mention are great works that all born again strive to do. However they are not required for salvation. You are saved by Grace alone and not by works so that you do not boast. When you say you need works for salvation you are claiming that Jesus alone is not enough. Is this what you teach? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 God does not force people to believe. He offers us his gift and it is our choice if we will accept his gift or not. I don't see why that is so hard to understand. You do believe in free will, agency don't you? God seeks us out, but he does not force us to accept him.M.So, what of those that never hear about Christ...die without a knowledge of Him? Or those that died before Christ...say during the Flood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 So, what of those that never hear about Christ...die without a knowledge of Him? Or those that died before Christ...say during the Flood?God is just. Only God knows the inner most desires of every person that has lived. Only God will decide the eternal situation of all those without the knowledge of Christ's gift. I have faith that what God decides will be good.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 PC, do you believe we existed as individuals before coming here? No. The standard belief amongst Protestants and Catholics is that the creation event described in Genesis 1, and further expounded upon in chapter 2, is the beginning for us. There was no pre-creation existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 You can impress GOD PC...it starts with the three basic principles after man[woman] acceptance of the Son and its required ordinance. The three are GRATITUDE, OBEDIENCE, and surrendering your WILL to the FATHER. If this is the thought and desire of this man [woman], you will stand in GOD presence. Others without these basic three principles stand not in GOD's presence.Even the Holy Ghost becomes a friend to that individual on a daily basis.... After conversion, the Spirit is in us, working through us. Yes, THEN, we can please God. But, prior to reconciliation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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