Issue with Baptisms for the Dead..

[Obadiah]

I completely agree. Infinitely.........and how thankful I am.

You got that right buddy.

This subject is a bit of hot button for me. The beauty of the Plan of Salvation is sometimes obfuscated by our insecurities. I participate in a famous RCC forum where many times the concern is wrapped in the Philosophy of the past, a philosophy wrapped in the jargon of a pagan (Aristotle). While such discussions are fascinating endeavors, the consequences ontologically are devastating. The Church has displayed remarkable discipline by avoiding such verbal entanglements in favor of the policy of sticking to revealed word. Often I have found Church members allow themselves to get pulled into such concerns. Three main points:

1. A testimony of the Saving sacrifice of the savior is the paramount need in our life.

2. The Lord will forgive us to the full measure of our creation. What is the difference between Jesus and us? His perfect obedience to the Father in all things; the full measure of his being is to be the Creator of all and savior of the world.

3. The forgiveness of the Lord will not be sullied by our insecurities. I to have concerns about my worthiness, but accept the Lord will 'have my back'.

Thanks again.

[Seminarysnoozer]

There clearly is a value placed on performing an ordinance that will be rejected, just like there is value to the rejections of the efforts of the missionaries here. They will stand witness as to having provided the opportunity. God is not a just a referee calling the game from His view. He is bound by eternal laws, a lot of which we do not fully understand. One of those laws, for me (this is not part of gospel doctrine as far as I know but my feeling), is that He can't claim the full glory of something that has not yet been done. Thus the value of the phrase, "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Don't forget the "to bring to pass" part. Even if he could see the future perfectly, it is not the same as having the ability to say that something has come to pass. ... and I think that same principle is true for both positive and negative things that happen here. The value of "it would have been" is not the same as "it was."

2 Nephi 9:44 " O, my beloved brethren, remember my words. Behold, I take off my garments, and I shake them before you; I pray the God of my salvation that he view me with his all-searching eye; wherefore, ye shall know at the last day, when all men shall be judged of their works, that the God of Israel did witness that I shook your iniquities from my soul, and that I stand with brightness before him, and am rid of your blood."

.... in part, I think, we do the baptisms for the dead so that the blood of their sins are not on our garments. And, so God can say, there was a way prepared for them, all the work was done, all the covenants were completed in their name and sealed in this world, so there is no excuse, there is no defense. One cannot say in spirit prison, "I didn't have a fair chance to go through all the steps." (I realize this has already been said in so many ways, just throwing in my two cents.)

[Compassionate]

How do we know if someone in this life actually has been given the oppoutunity to reject or accept the gospel. That person slamming the door on the missionaries? Could be a child was just about to get hot water spilled on them, thus the door was slammed. Pres. Kimball once told us at a mission meeting we could not judge when a person had really had a chance and was ready to accept. Remember baptisim is just the start or entrance to the Kingdom, by the way aren't they all His Kingdoms?

[Justice]

Accepting the Gospel in the after-life (going through proxy-baptism, etc) isn't enough?

That doesn't sound right to me. Seems like a bum deal. For example.. my entire family (every single person, extended family included) with the exception of myself is going to be forced to not be a part of a family and to live alone? What incentive is there to do my temple work?

It seems to me that the the saying "Families are forever" really means "Some families can be forever"?

Are you saying your family "rejected" the Gospel while on earth, or just didn't accept it?

I see a stark difference.

[Seminarysnoozer]

How do we know if someone in this life actually has been given the oppoutunity to reject or accept the gospel. That person slamming the door on the missionaries? Could be a child was just about to get hot water spilled on them, thus the door was slammed. Pres. Kimball once told us at a mission meeting we could not judge when a person had really had a chance and was ready to accept. Remember baptisim is just the start or entrance to the Kingdom, by the way aren't they all His Kingdoms?

We don't know, you are right. The only thing one can do is make sure she has done her part. We will stand witness as to the fact we tried and we did our work here to the best of our ability. The attempt though means something. God will judge in the end, but in those cases where there was opportunity, the door was opened and that person did not accept, we will stand witness to our part in that process. So .... it is not a loss, in that sense, when we do baptisms for the dead and they do not accept.