Punishment for sins?

[mytha]

My view of punishment for sin has always been that there isn't any -- there are simply consequences to the choices we make, some of which might be natural consequences that occur in this life and some which might be eternal consequences that are imposed at the final judgement.

There seem to plenty of examples, however, of God punishing people on earth during their mortal lives for sin (Korihor, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Nephite/Lamanite cities at Christ's coming, the flood).

Do you think sin ever brings misfortune in this life as a punishment from God?

[Vort]

If you believe the scriptures, you must believe in divine punishment.

The flip side to that is that it appears that "whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth" (Hebrews 12:6). Divine punishment is real, but appears to be confined to his covenant people. As a general rule, it doesn't appear that the "unwashed masses" are subject to divine punishment for misbehavior, just the natural consequences of their actions.

[NeuroTypical]

My view of punishment for sin has always been that there isn't any -- there are simply consequences to the choices we make

...

Do you think sin ever brings misfortune in this life as a punishment from God?

I think "misforune in this life as a punishment from God" is a prime example of a "consequence to the choices we make". I don't see them as different things.

LM

[unixknight]

I think misfortune in life has more to do with the lack of the blessings we receive as a result of our obedience to the Gospel than with an active effort on the part of the Lord to punish.

I think when we're chastened for living sinfully it's more about pointing us back to the right path than a "spanking," as it were.

Otherwise the Atonement would mean nothing, since that would imply that it's possible for us to be punished sufficiently for our sins as not to need the Sacrifice on the Cross.

[Jim108]

My view of punishment for sin has always been that there isn't any -- there are simply consequences to the choices we make, some of which might be natural consequences that occur in this life and some which might be eternal consequences that are imposed at the final judgement.

There seem to plenty of examples, however, of God punishing people on earth during their mortal lives for sin (Korihor, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Nephite/Lamanite cities at Christ's coming, the flood).

Do you think sin ever brings misfortune in this life as a punishment from God?

You do have Earthly consequences for your sins. If we lie, we create problems that could result in negetive consequences. If we live a gay lifestyle we could receive a leathal disease. These problems are not put apon us by God but by our bad choices, aka our sins.

However, all sin has been paid for in full by Jesus. Even the sins of your future. You need only repent and to believe. God does not bring misfortune down on us. He loves you and has healed you. You just need to have faith and to believe it. Jesus did it all. That, you can be sure of. I hope this helps.

[Moksha]

Do you think sin ever brings misfortune in this life as a punishment from God?

No, that would run contrary to the idea of our mortal existence being some sort of test. Teachers never correct a test paper while the student is working on it. This idea has Old Testament written all over it. Where is the mercy and forgiveness of the New Testament? Where is the idea that Jesus died for our sins? Where is the allowance for repentance?

In Gordon Lightfoot's song, The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, the question is asked "Does anyone know where the love of God goes?". The true answer is that it is still there.

Judgment will come in its proper place and in its proper order.

:)

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

There is support for divine punishment in scripture. On the one hand, the chastening of our Heavenly Father is like that of an Earthly Father. Whenever your child disobeys, as a parent, you instill the punishment for that particular act of disobedience. Not because you are being mean or unfair (as children sometimes do), but because you love them and are teaching them that there are consequences for their actions.

One aspect of this punishment is the withdraw of the Holy Spirit. Another aspect of the consequences that are used to teach us humility and to bring us to repentance.

However, there is another type of divine judgment that our Heavenly Father has used and will use. This is known as his wrath being poured out. In this sense, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their progression into sinful desires to the point that their whole society became wicked and vile. He also used armies and came against Israel because of their Idolatry. He even used Israel to come against the people of Canaan who were being judged and their land taken from them and given to them (because of the promise of Abraham).

So, yes, there is evidence for divine punishment for both the righteous and the wicked. And, then there are just things that happen because they happen and not a result of God's interaction. In this sense is the reason for the passage that says that it rains on both the righteous and wicked.

How are we to determine whether or not it is the Chastening of a loving Heavenly Father, an outright judgment to bring us to repentence to call upon him, or just an aspect of the natural world around us? We do not know.

One could argue that 9/11 is a result of Judgment of God upon America. However, one would say that it was not because it was just the result of those individuals exercising their moral agency. Another could say that Hurricane Katrina was the judgment of God that came upon New Orleans. Again, another could say that it was the cause of natural elements.

What we do know is that there are going to be many things that are going to happen in the last days before the Coming of Christ. Some of these things are going to be because God causes them to happen or that he allows them to happen, or they happen as a direct result of man's moral agency and are the consequences of those decisions.

[Jim108]

There is support for divine punishment in scripture. On the one hand, the chastening of our Heavenly Father is like that of an Earthly Father. Whenever your child disobeys, as a parent, you instill the punishment for that particular act of disobedience. Not because you are being mean or unfair (as children sometimes do), but because you love them and are teaching them that there are consequences for their actions.

One aspect of this punishment is the withdraw of the Holy Spirit. Another aspect of the consequences that are used to teach us humility and to bring us to repentance.

However, there is another type of divine judgment that our Heavenly Father has used and will use. This is known as his wrath being poured out. In this sense, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their progression into sinful desires to the point that their whole society became wicked and vile. He also used armies and came against Israel because of their Idolatry. He even used Israel to come against the people of Canaan who were being judged and their land taken from them and given to them (because of the promise of Abraham).

So, yes, there is evidence for divine punishment for both the righteous and the wicked. And, then there are just things that happen because they happen and not a result of God's interaction. In this sense is the reason for the passage that says that it rains on both the righteous and wicked.

How are we to determine whether or not it is the Chastening of a loving Heavenly Father, an outright judgment to bring us to repentence to call upon him, or just an aspect of the natural world around us? We do not know.

One could argue that 9/11 is a result of Judgment of God upon America. However, one would say that it was not because it was just the result of those individuals exercising their moral agency. Another could say that Hurricane Katrina was the judgment of God that came upon New Orleans. Again, another could say that it was the cause of natural elements.

What we do know is that there are going to be many things that are going to happen in the last days before the Coming of Christ. Some of these things are going to be because God causes them to happen or that he allows them to happen, or they happen as a direct result of man's moral agency and are the consequences of those decisions.

Your belief makes me sad.

[pam]

I'm sad that you come to an lds board and are unwilling to even listen to what we have to say from an lds perspective. It's your way and we are all wrong.

[Jim108]

I'm sad that you come to an lds board and are unwilling to even listen to what we have to say from an lds perspective. It's your way and we are all wrong.

It's your way and we are all wrong.

No, it is Gods way.

[bytor2112]

It's your way and we are all wrong.

No, it is Gods way.

yes and it's obvious by your comments that all you know and preach is the gospel according to Jim. This is an LDS forum for discussion.....try and discuss and understand, not preach....and be respectful.

[john doe]

Jim won't be speaking for God anymore, his journeys will take him elsewhere from now on..........

[mytha]

Yikes! I didn't expect to start an argument. Sorry about that. But thank you for the responses.

[Traveler]

My view of punishment for sin has always been that there isn't any -- there are simply consequences to the choices we make, some of which might be natural consequences that occur in this life and some which might be eternal consequences that are imposed at the final judgement.

There seem to plenty of examples, however, of God punishing people on earth during their mortal lives for sin (Korihor, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Nephite/Lamanite cities at Christ's coming, the flood).

Do you think sin ever brings misfortune in this life as a punishment from God?

One thing that is very important to understand about sin. Associated with each and every sin is suffering. I do not know if someone wants to count suffering as punishment for sin. In fact many times some of the suffering that results from sin is borne by someone other than the one that sinned. We could call these consequences but that is not always the case.

A parent will suffer with a wayward child – sometimes even more than the wayward child. A righteous leader will often suffer with a rebellious member - sometimes even more than the rebellious member. In fact I would submit that the more righteous a person is the more likely they will repent and not suffer for their sins but will suffer because of the sins of others.

I guess my point is that sin is a very horrible thing that brings suffering not only to those that enjoy the sin but to the righteous that love them as well – and that includes their L-rd an G-d that suffers the most because he loves the most.

The Traveler

[Lorenzo]

I can't remember where I read it, but somewhere it says that those who do some things, I think break the covenants in the temple, will have their physical bodies "buffetted" by Satan. So for certain disobedience, there is immediate physical punishment. I know a person who did some pretty bad things after receiving her endowments in the temple. Even though later she was on a mission with her husband, she was "buffetted" with various ailments, falling off ladders, slipping on ice and winding up in emergency, and so on. I'm not judging her. I'm just saying she was really beat up physically.

[john doe]

I don't believe there is a direct correlation between keeping the commandments and physical well-being. That's like the old wives' tales of sickness being a curse from God for some sin you committed once upon a time. I know lots of people who break commandments and nothing bad happens to them. Are they immune from God then?

[Traveler]

I don't believe there is a direct correlation between keeping the commandments and physical well-being. That's like the old wives' tales of sickness being a curse from God for some sin you committed once upon a time. I know lots of people who break commandments and nothing bad happens to them. Are they immune from God then?

Define "bad". I believe that being away from G-d has even physical effects that are not good.

The Traveler

[StallionMcBeastly]

Let me throw out a scenario.

Do you guys believe if someone, for example, starts swearing a lot that God will cause something bad to happen in their lives?

[Guest Alana]

I know too many people who have very obvious sins in their lives who live, as far as earthy standards go, very charmed lives.

There are of course natural consequences. It seems more like Heavenly Fathers chastisements are provided more to help a wayward child get back on track then to simply punish.

[john doe]

Define "bad". I believe that being away from G-d has even physical effects that are not good.

The Traveler

Well, for instance, Most bank robbers don't automatically get the flu the next week.

[Traveler]

Let me throw out a scenario.

Do you guys believe if someone, for example, starts swearing a lot that God will cause something bad to happen in their lives?

Define "cause". I believe that when the spirit of the L-rd is withdrawn or forced to with draw that it is impossible for anything good (in the nature of eternal blessings or rewards) to occur. I am also quite sure the spirit of the L-rd dwells only in holy places.

So yes I believe that when a person engages in unholy activity or deliberately stands in unholy places that something bad in their life is inevitable. But I also believe that as a person becomes accustom to unholy places that they can learn to “enjoy” the experience and develop a lust for that which is unholy.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Well, for instance, Most bank robbers don't automatically get the flu the next week.

Are you saying that regardless of all other factors (both present and forever in the future) that getting the flu is bad?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I know too many people who have very obvious sins in their lives who live, as far as earthy standards go, very charmed lives.

There are of course natural consequences. It seems more like Heavenly Fathers chastisements are provided more to help a wayward child get back on track then to simply punish.

Would you say that it is a “punishment” when G-d denies or withdraws from someone his spirit? I would not count that as a blessing or reward.

I do agree that G-d will do nothing for anyone that is not of eternal benefit for them. The eternal maledictions that come upon a person, is because they force G-d to withdraw his protection. Those that are loyal to G-d and have faith in him – all things will turn out good for them – even if they should suffer unto death.

The Traveler

[lattelady]

Lots of people have a view of God that He is watching our behavior and every time it is bad, we get a whack from Him (some bad thing happening). I believe that there are natural consequences to sin. But scripture doesn't support the idea of God "spanking" us for every infraction. Yes, He desires obedience. But the Bible says it's "His kindness that leads us to repentence." Sometimes He allows us to experience the tough consequences of sin and the deeper we descend into that isolation and unhappiness because of our choices, we get to the end of our rope. We realize that life walking close to God is BETTER than walking alone. He LOVES us. He's not vengeful and cruel. He knows what's best for us, but won't force us to choose that.

[hordak]

I'm with Jon Doe and Moksha.

I think the problem with associating ones misfortunes to sin is that it leaves out a very important part of the equation. Free will. We so very often think the world revolves around us and attribute most things that affect us as personal while forgetting that not only ourselves but others have free will as well.

It is easy to say I didn't get that job because i didn't pay tithing. It's personal and we have some control over it.

It's harder to say, I didn't get the job because there were people more qualified. Nothing i could have done to control the situation.

I don't know how "hands on" God could be without affecting free will but i don't think he would take away the agency of the hiring manager to "stick it to you"