G-d's justice and mercy


Traveler
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I see a lot of discussion about G-d mercy as a measure of his love, kindness and compassion and somethin to be desired. But what about his justice? Is that to be considered an act of love, kindness and compassion or is the Justice of G-d in "conflict" with his mercy? Is G-d's justice something of joy to look forward to - but only as it is applied to someone else and not to us?

The Traveler

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To me, justice means, in part, God will not change the rules in the middle of the game, so to speak. So it provides a sense of stability. Maybe this is a woman thing, but I like that sense of security and stability. The other thing is that I think a lot of people in this world are successful by sweet talking. Whenever you go out to buy something or even hearing advertisements people fluff everything to sound better than it is. It is comforting to me to know that God is just, He can't be persuaded or impressed. All those people that are used to getting what they want by telling people what they want to hear and stroking their ego are going to have a rude awakening in the next life. In other words, even if you hired Kardashian, it wouldn't help. ... unlike the justice we see here.

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Good question there.

God's justice is the fact that all wrongs must be answered for in the end. For those that have been wronged, this can provide a measure of peace and acceptance of what has happened to them if it seems justice won't be fulfilled as they think it should be. For instance, unsolved murders or kidnappings would easily fit here. Perhaps they will never be solved in this life, but due to God's justice, the guilty will be known and the penalties given to them.

For those that commit the wrongs it is a warning that likely goes unheeded. Even if they seem to 'get away with it' now, they won't escape the punishment forever.

For the average person, say you or I, I think it can be both. If someone hurts us, whatever the scope of the harm, and their effort was deliberate we can let justice rest in God's hands and focus on getting through the pain and loss with a greater portion of the spirit of Christ.

remember that in all of this we are to forgive those who trespass against us as Christ taught.

At the same time, when we deliberately hurt others we cannot forget that as we are guilty we must either repent and make whatever amends we can, or stand to accept the consequences of our actions.

The justice of God means that all wrongs must, and will be, paid for and all accounts settled between God and man.

The blessing of it is the fact that if we are guilty and stand in danger of God's justice, we can seek forgiveness through repentance and the atonement of Jesus Christ. He's already paid for all sin for us. If we turn to him in humility we can remove the danger of God's justice from our lives, but we must be sincere through it all.

Thanks for the great question.

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Did someone say Justice?

The book of Alma gives us some of the greatest teachings and understandings of justice and mercy found anywhere in scripture.

Alma 34:

15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.

16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption.

I love where Alma calls it the plan of mercy. Knowing it is the plan of our Heavenly Father, it's very interesting.

Alma 42:

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

• • •

15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

• • •

21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.

24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

Powerful stuff.

For you non-members who have made it this far, verse 25 is a good expression of how we feel about being saved in spite of a person's sins. We are saved from them, not in them. So, good works and obedience would be required.

I feel it's no coincidence that justice is refered to as "he" and mercy as "she."

My 13 year old daughter asked me last night, while showing me these scriptures, if Heavenly Mother's name is Mercy.

:)

I don't know, but it's a good question.

I have to tell you, though, if these few scriptures are ALL that Joseph Smith was able to translate, even just these would be HUGE as far as understanding who we are and God's purposes.

If you are not a member of the LDS Church, I highly encourage you to read and ponder on these verses I quoted. Their logic and teachings are profound! They clarify what the Bible teaches immensely.

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Did someone say Justice?

The book of Alma gives us some of the greatest teachings and understandings of justice and mercy found anywhere in scripture.

Alma 34:

25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

Powerful stuff.

.....

Two things that seem to be missing in many post so far. Does G-d punish good people for not believing or does justice demand that good people be rewarded by the justice of G-d. Also what about the partackers of the atonement and believers that having recived of G-d's mercy do that which is not good? Does the justice of G-d reward them or will they be punished for evil the do after being "saved".

So here is the question - Is there justice? or not???

The Traveler

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.

25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

Wonder if the pen or the printer slipped and put in nay rather than yea. Otherwise, this tends to contradict the main teachings of the New Testament. To return to a Mosaic code of law would be not be on the same path as Jesus taught in the Beatitudes and the Greatest Commandments.

BTW, what is up with that God ceasing to exist stuff?

:)

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Two things that seem to be missing in many post so far. Does G-d punish good people for not believing or does justice demand that good people be rewarded by the justice of G-d. Also what about the partackers of the atonement and believers that having recived of G-d's mercy do that which is not good? Does the justice of G-d reward them or will they be punished for evil the do after being "saved".

So here is the question - Is there justice? or not???

The Traveler

Pure justice is Romans 3:10, 23; 6:23: There is none righteous, not one...all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God...The wages of sin is death. There are no good people. We are condemned already. What Jesus offers is a way of escape. A path of mercy--a reprieve from God's justice.

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That is what is amazing about those passages in Alma. I love them, thanks for posting them Justice. It shows us that justice must be met and God is bound to that law. So, in his love he sent his Son to pay the price of justice that mercy may be extended to all who believe.

Mercy claims the penitent.

Mercy is through the Atonement.

Those who are truly saved will not work evil. They will "go and sin no more." They become a new creature and have no more disposition to do evil. Just think of Alma the Younger. Of course we know that the flesh is weak even when the spirit is willing. We all continue to work towards perfect love the rest of our lives.

All the "works" that save are works of God or the inner man. They are faith and love, charity.

I love the beatitude of Blessed are the merciful for they will obtain mercy. That is so simple and profound! If we extend mercy to others, God will extend his mercy to us.

Alma 7:14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

.....

24 And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works.

Someone once pointed out that justice is fairness and equity. I believe that. I look forward to justice, knowing I am claimed by mercy. I know that God is love and wouldn't do anything unfair or unloving or unjust.

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Thanks PC, I think that is the best answer. And I'm glad Justice answered a question about justice, lol ... his post explains how it is all possible. (I have a 13 year old daughter too, but she has never asked those kinds of questions, good job Justice)

Justice has already been served as far as God is concerned because Jesus paid the price for all the sins. And his mercy is also complete in allowing Jesus to pay the price. So, when you ask about a reprieve from God's justice, which God are you talking about?

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Wonder if the pen or the printer slipped and put in nay rather than yea. Otherwise, this tends to contradict the main teachings of the New Testament. To return to a Mosaic code of law would be not be on the same path as Jesus taught in the Beatitudes and the Greatest Commandments.

What it's saying is that God cannot just wave His hand and vanish sin. Even He had to follow the law. He had to send His Son to suffer the price demanded by justice. God has to be just.

BTW, what is up with that God ceasing to exist stuff?

It's not cease to exist, it's cease to be God.

God must be just. If He is ever not just, then He is not God. It's boggling to think about when you first begin to ponder it, but it makes perfect sense to me now.

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Pure justice is Romans 3:10, 23; 6:23: There is none righteous, not one...all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God...The wages of sin is death. There are no good people. We are condemned already. What Jesus offers is a way of escape. A path of mercy--a reprieve from God's justice.

A new born child struggles for their first breath and dies. Condemned already – for what sin, breathing? Does Jesus love children? Is G-d just? If so can you demonstrate it? It appears that if the word was condemnation rather than justice - then the scripture as you use it might make some sense but do you really believe in a G-d that asks us to view our fellow man in a way different than how he does?

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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I see a lot of discussion about G-d mercy as a measure of his love, kindness and compassion and somethin to be desired. But what about his justice? Is that to be considered an act of love, kindness and compassion or is the Justice of G-d in "conflict" with his mercy? Is G-d's justice something of joy to look forward to - but only as it is applied to someone else and not to us?

The Traveler

Just so yu will know the word justify {justice} means not sanctification; but to be able to aquire or work towards sanctification without damnation.:)

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I see a lot of discussion about G-d mercy as a measure of his love, kindness and compassion and somethin to be desired. But what about his justice? Is that to be considered an act of love, kindness and compassion or is the Justice of G-d in "conflict" with his mercy? Is G-d's justice something of joy to look forward to - but only as it is applied to someone else and not to us?

The Traveler

The laws of justice and mercy are already served through Jesus, if you follow His plan and repent. If you do not repent of your sins then you will have to look forward to justice. So, to answer the original question (sorry, didn't understand your question until now) ... If one has to look forward to justice, then it is not joyful. Through repentance though, we don't have to look forward to justice, justice has already been paid.

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What is God's justice during our earthly probation? I think that is where people get confused. A lot of Bible stories we have seem to be in conflict with justice and especially mercy. I am only talking about things that have been attributed to God in the scriptures-not the unfairness we see in the world.

Is it equatable and just for God to command the children of Isreal (who struggled with idolatry) to slaughter an entire city of people accused of idolatry-including innocent children and animals?

If so, how? And why would it be okay to wipe out one population for idolatry and not the other?

Is it just for God to preserve the murderer Cain and strike the guy dead who tried to steady the ark of the covenant? If so, how?

Is the death penalty JUST for adultery and fornication like it says in the law of Moses? If so, why wasn't Judah struck dead for sleeping with his daughter-in-law (he thought she was just a prostitute). Her husband was apparantly naughty enough to be struck dead by God and the brother was struck dead for not "raising up seed to his brother."

Why weren't Hitler and some of these mass murderers and tyrants struck dead?

Justice doesn't mean different penalties and rewards for the same works. That is unjust.

At the judgement bar will God show favortism? Will some murderers be treated better than some who tried to "steady the ark?"

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Traveler, I join many of my Protestant family in ascribing to the Age of Accountability--a teaching that before a child is old enough to discern right and wrong, if such a one dies, s/he will be ushered into the presence of the LORD.

I believed that you do - I am just trying to understand what you interpret as "all" in the scripture you gave me because it did not appear that you believed in any exceptions when you offered it. Just wondering what scripture you use to justify the exception.

The Traveler

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At the judgement bar will God show favortism? Will some murderers be treated better than some who tried to "steady the ark?"

I would answer you by saying that any punishment God gives for sin is just.

It's very hard when we don't know the heart of a man, the reasons why the sin(s) is committed, or know the end from the beginning as God does.

We view entrance into this life as birth and leaving this existence as death. I have come to believe that God sees this completely opposite.

It's not so much that He administers justice differently, it's that He knows to whom and under what circumstances it's best to show mercy. So, as PC stated in this and many other threads, all are condemned through sin. To me, punishment is just. The variable we see is His perfect timing as when and to whom to extend mercy.

Every act God does is made to give His children the greatest chance of succeeding. Sometimes it's a hopeless cause, and He can see that. So, maybe in those instances He is slow to extend mercy. In other situations it's possible that many will grow and learn from the hardship and mankind will be better in the long run as a result of swift justice, as in the flood.

What we have to do is come to trust the Lord. Here is one of my favorite scriptures dealing with this:

Luke 11:

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

There are many different truths to be learned in these few verses.

For instance, contrast what was asked for and what gift was given. The things that were desired represent life, the things that were given represent death.

And, what about the importance of the ultimate gift mentioned at the end of these verses and what it might represent?

I'll let you find the rest, it's more meaningful that way. :)

Edited by Justice
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That doesn't really answer the questions I posed, though. I agree with that scripture. That scripture doesn't say anything about God being unjust. It says the opposite. It doesn't explain why a son of perdition is allowed to live and some guy who touched the ark was struck dead. Why was mercy shown to a son of perdition? Why didn't the ark toucher get an opportunity to repent?

In your mind, you believe that murder is just in some cases. I just don't ever think that it is. I also don't think God is able to break his own commandments or he will cease to be God. If God murders innocent children then he would cease to be God.

Are you a judge? Would you consider it just to sentence a 2 year old child to death because their parents are pagan? All are not lost. The scriptures tell us that there are those who are unaccountable. That is the very definition of "innocent." Killing innocent people is the very definition of "murder." God has commanded "Thou shalt not murder." He cannot lie and still be God. He cannot murder and still be God.

I also wonder if someone could explain to me how much agency God allows us? What is the final straw that will cause him to kill us? I want to know what commandments are punishable by physical death met out by God.

God does not believe in "pre-emptive strikes."

We can know for certain the heart of an innocent child. It is pure and fully covered by the mercy of God.

We can know for certain the heart of a son of perdition. It is hard and rebellious.

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Recently Prof Andrew Skinner was in Indianapolis speaking on the atonement. He noted that Jesus' mercy wipes away our sins and iniquities. Jesus' justice makes up for the injustices in our lives (too short, too fat, bad parents, blind, physical/emotional disability, etc).

Justice is not a point of God reaching out to destroy/burn the wicked. It is where God takes the unfair things in life, and makes them fair.

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I believed that you do - I am just trying to understand what you interpret as "all" in the scripture you gave me because it did not appear that you believed in any exceptions when you offered it. Just wondering what scripture you use to justify the exception.

The Traveler

Frankly, the doctrine of the Age of Accountability is one of the most difficult to support biblically. I can offer references, such as Jesus saying to "suffer the children to come unto me." Further, since we who believe in credo-baptism (baptism because of belief), do not believe sacraments confer salvation, we're left to conclude that those not mature enough to discern right from wrong are redeemed by Christ's blood. Not because they are sinless, but because they are too young understand what it means to make a turn around--to repent. BTW, yes, I can see that if such an approach were expanded, it would lead to many other groups of people being automatically saved...or at least could. So, I'd offer Romans 1, with it's declaration that "men are without excuse," to caution against over-applying this teaching.

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Good question there.

God's justice is the fact that all wrongs must be answered for in the end. For those that have been wronged, this can provide a measure of peace and acceptance of what has happened to them if it seems justice won't be fulfilled as they think it should be. For instance, unsolved murders or kidnappings would easily fit here. Perhaps they will never be solved in this life, but due to God's justice, the guilty will be known and the penalties given to them.

For those that commit the wrongs it is a warning that likely goes unheeded. Even if they seem to 'get away with it' now, they won't escape the punishment forever.

For the average person, say you or I, I think it can be both. If someone hurts us, whatever the scope of the harm, and their effort was deliberate we can let justice rest in God's hands and focus on getting through the pain and loss with a greater portion of the spirit of Christ.

remember that in all of this we are to forgive those who trespass against us as Christ taught.

At the same time, when we deliberately hurt others we cannot forget that as we are guilty we must either repent and make whatever amends we can, or stand to accept the consequences of our actions.

The justice of God means that all wrongs must, and will be, paid for and all accounts settled between God and man.

The blessing of it is the fact that if we are guilty and stand in danger of God's justice, we can seek forgiveness through repentance and the atonement of Jesus Christ. He's already paid for all sin for us. If we turn to him in humility we can remove the danger of God's justice from our lives, but we must be sincere through it all.

Thanks for the great question.

You have hit the nail right on the head for me.

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That doesn't really answer the questions I posed, though. I agree with that scripture. That scripture doesn't say anything about God being unjust. It says the opposite. It doesn't explain why a son of perdition is allowed to live and some guy who touched the ark was struck dead. Why was mercy shown to a son of perdition? Why didn't the ark toucher get an opportunity to repent?

All I was trying to say is that we don't know the heart of man, or what drives a man to do a thing, but God does. Just by looking at actions we think we can determine justice, but we can't. This is why we are commanded to forgive all men, while God exacts justice in His way, in His own time.

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