Do truely good people exist?

[Madriglace]

We all start out the same coming direct from the Father. How ever we are all the product of our choices and the consequences of the choices of others that shape what we are. Are there bad people ... JMHO yes ... are there evil people ... history has shown that there are. It's all a matter of choice ... ours and unfortunately others that we have nop control over as well.

[Gatsby]

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

Matthew 7:1-2

I used to believe that evil people existed, but not anymore. I haven't done any major offenses but I've sinned before and done things that were wrong so who the heck am I to judge anyone? No one!

[GingerGolden]

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

Matthew 7:1-2

I used to believe that evil people existed, but not anymore. I haven't done any major offenses but I've sinned before and done things that were wrong so who the heck am I to judge anyone? No one!

My understanding of this scripture is that the way we judge others is the way we will be judged, considering that it is the way we understand that which we judge.

In other words, if I judge you, the way I judge you, is the way I will eventually be judged since that is the way I understand being judged.

One of the most important things our Savior said is, "As I have loved you, love one another."

I understand this to mean unconditionally loving others.

If we love one another unconditionally, then our own judgment is more tempered with unconditional love. Right?

[Islander]

My understanding of this scripture is that the way we judge others is the way we will be judged, considering that it is the way we understand that which we judge.

In other words, if I judge you, the way I judge you, is the way I will eventually be judged since that is the way I understand being judged.

One of the most important things our Savior said is, "As I have loved you, love one another."

I understand this to mean unconditionally loving others.

If we love one another unconditionally, then our own judgment is more tempered with unconditional love. Right?

That is a rather a philosophical abstraction rather than an accurate interpretation of the scriptures. The spirit of the commandment is to strive for fairness, to avoid ill-intended or biased judgment, to avoid hypocrisy.

Evil people are those who do evil deeds and would not repent or express remorse. They will remain so until they have a change of heart. You may not have encountered them so you doubt their existence.

[hordak]

Don't the scriptures say that God loves the sinner but not the sin.

Any thoughts?

Nope. I know what your saying but that phrase, or variation of it is not in the scriptures. In my reading of the bible i have found nothing that distinguishes the sin from the sinner.

Not saying it's a bad idea. Just saying it isn't scriptural (to my knowledge)

[Moksha]

If there are no bad people, then how do you account for sociopaths?

[GingerGolden]

That is a rather a philosophical abstraction rather than an accurate interpretation of the scriptures. The spirit of the commandment is to strive for fairness, to avoid ill-intended or biased judgment, to avoid hypocrisy.

"if I judge you, the way I judge you, is the way I will eventually be judged since that is the way I understand being judged."

I do believe that is about the same thing I said, only in different words perhaps.

Of course, I am myself and no other, therefore I can't answer for anyone else.

Evil people are those who do evil deeds and would not repent or express remorse. They will remain so until they have a change of heart. You may not have encountered them so you doubt their existence.

Oh, my yes, I do know that there are evil people, just recently I found myself having to press assault charges on one of my own sisters. I did not want to have to do so, but knew that if I did not, then my children would learn that it is perfectly fine to beat one another nearly to death. That is not something I want my children to grow up thinking is acceptable, to me or to society as a whole.

...and of course, there have been others whom I've come across as well in the past...

[MikeUpton]

mormon baddies.

Infamous Mormons

[Connie]

"Ezekiel 33:18-19 defines a righteous man. Who is righteous? Anyone who is repenting. No matter how bad he has been, if he is repenting he is a righteous man. There is hope for him. And no matter how good he has been all his life, if he is not repenting, he is a wicked man. The difference is which way you are facing. The man on the top of the stairs facing down is much worse off than the man on the bottom step who is facing up. The direction we are facing, that is repentance; and that is what determines whether we are good or bad."

-Hugh Nibley

[Jim108]

We are all wretched. Without the blood of the lamb we are lost. Not one of us can live without sin. Not even our prophet. ....and no amount of works can earn entry into heaven. We are saved by grace and grace alone. We do works because we want to, not because there is a reward in it. I hope this helps, Jim

[Berean]

Sorry there are bad people IMHO. At least we need to act as such sometimes to protect ourselves. No one should never be cruel but dismissiveness has its place as much as I abhor it.

And no it is not my place to judge someone.

And yes there are traumas and bad childhoods, but lots of us have been adults and have been away from our childhood longer than we have been in it. At what point does the victim become the participant?

[countrygirl66]

I don't believe anyone is born bad. I do beleive though that there times when you have to cut your losses with a person and leave it to the lord. A step mom I had as a kid. I pray that she is mentally ill, because if not then she is just evil. I have told my kids that there are safety rules and if you break them there are no second chances in this life to fix them with other people. That being said, I do beleive that anyone (and I mean anyone) can be forgiven anything. But being forgiven doesn't mean that you are trusted. It doesn't mean that you are given your rights and privledges back in society. I have a bio father that I never reconciled with in this life. I don't feel bad about it. I think that if I see him in heaven I will know weather or not all is well. He crossed lines in this life, that although forgiven made him lose my trust forever. I did not feel the need to continually deal with him and what he felt he wanted in this life. Just because you are forgiven, doesn't mean you are trusted again. Just because you repent of murder, doesn't mean you get out of jail. Just because your repent of abusing your child, doesn't give you a free pass back into their life. I think sometimes in our wish to be pc, we forget that it is not the job of the victim to absolve the abuser of his or her guilt. That is only something the lord can do and we humans may not resolve some relationships in this life. And I don't think that makes us bad people. Only the lord can judge a persons heart, but we must use our judgement as to what is good and acceptable in our life and what is not.

[Jamie123]

Is there really such thing as "bad" people?

Definitely there are! They're called BMW drivers!

[Elphaba]

And no matter how good he has been all his life, if he is not repenting, he is a wicked man.

So a decent man, who takes care of his family, spends time with his children, raises them to be good human beings, participates in the community, contributes to charities, and feeds the dog is wicked if he is not "repenting"?

Why do these quotes from church leaders always have to be a choice between extremes, i.e., if the person is not good, he is wicked?

Why don't they ever say something like "people are complex, and none of us can judge where they are in the spiritual journey. Nor can we judge what motivated them to be in that particular spot at this time."?

The difference is which way you are facing. The man on the top of the stairs facing down is much worse off than the man on the bottom step who is facing up. The direction we are facing, that is repentance; and that is what determines whether we are good or bad."

What if you are on the middle stair?

Elphaba

[aranyborju]

"If you mean "bad" in a 1985 sense, then yeah..I'm bad.

[Snow]

I've been wondering for quite some time and wanted to know the opinion of members of the LDS church on this.

Is there really such thing as "bad" people?

If by bad you mean immoral or gluttonous or lazy or apathetic or cruel or stupid or ignorant or prejudiced or filthy or vice-ridden or greedy or harmful to society or murderous or lecherous, etc...

... then yes, by the boatload.

[Snow]

So a decent man, who takes care of his family, spends time with his children, raises them to be good human beings, participates in the community, contributes to charities, and feeds the dog is wicked if he is not "repenting"?

Why do these quotes from church leaders always have to be a choice between extremes, i.e., if the person is not good, he is wicked?

1. The quote wasn't from a Church leader. It was from Hugh Nibley.

2. It's very insightful way of looking about "wickedness" or "righteousness." He is not defining them in terms of some accumulation good deeds and attitudes or bad. He looks at man as fundamentally inadequate when separate and apart from deity and so defines man's character in terms of which way he is tending. Is he trying to improve - if so, he is relatively good. If he is degenerating, he is relatively bad. It's a matter of relativities.

[Maxel]

So a decent man, who takes care of his family, spends time with his children, raises them to be good human beings, participates in the community, contributes to charities, and feeds the dog is wicked if he is not "repenting"?

He can be. Seriously. The Lord has stated that "my ways are not your ways". (Isaiah 55:9) Theoretically, the man could be harboring secret desires to overthrow the country and force others to submit to his regime and new religion dedicated to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Why do these quotes from church leaders always have to be a choice between extremes, i.e., if the person is not good, he is wicked?

Why don't they ever say something like "people are complex, and none of us can judge where they are in the spiritual journey. Nor can we judge what motivated them to be in that particular spot at this time."?

Actually, in my life I've found that extremes are a much more effective tool for teaching. It is the synthesis of those extremes, through the influence of the Holy Ghost, that we arrive at correct doctrine.

For example, the extremes of good and bad in human nature must be checked against the extremes of God's mercy and justice. That synthesis must be checked against the fact that we are not able to judge people; only principles, actions, and spirits. All that must be balanced against the fact that we ourselves are lowly and deserving of hell, and the only way to escape is through the Atonement of Christ. Finally, this must be checked against the very real fact that good and evil exist and that they are polar opposites.

Checks and balances aren't just awesome political constructs.

What if you are on the middle stair?

It matters if you're walking up or down. Edited March 13, 2009 by Maxel

[MikeUpton]

I think that you have a point, Elphaba. No one (almost no one) is completely bad or completely good. Most of us fall in the middle somewhere.

[Berean]

Mike we agree and so does my husband. That is why the Latter-Day Saint Church has a different stand on Hell than others. Joe likes to say that Jeffery Dahmer probably gave his mother flowers at least once in his life.

[CharlesW]

Hello,

I view threads on this fine forum from time to time and could not resist putting my input on this particular subject.

I have a Baptist/Christian background, so I thought my "different" perception might be an interesting read for some people. Feel free to comment, and I sure hope I don't sound like I'm preaching here.

I think you ask an excellent question as to the state of man, and the need for God; or more specifically, Gods grace.

I'll give you my short answer and my long answer on this subject.

My short answer is Yes, I believe man is bad.

Is man capable of some good deeds, of course, but with God's grace removed from us, even this would be impossible.

Back to the long answer. Ask yourself something... Have you ever lied? Obviously yes. So what does that make you (a lier). A man only has to murder once to be a murderer. "And all liars shall have their part in the lake" of fire (Rev 21:8).

Jesus said if you have ever hated, you commit murder in your heart.

The Jews thought they were keeping the Law, but Jesus came to show them that God's standards are much higher then they think. An infinite and Holy God, with perfect standards. By breaking His law, we are worthy of an infinite punishment. Another example; Jesus said if they have ever looked at a woman/man with lust, that they have commited adultry in their hearts. And this is only 3 of the 10 commandments.

So, if God will judge us on judgement day, and so far we have admitted to being lying, adultress, murderers (not to even mention the other commandments we've broken), then we are guilty. I know I have lied thousands of times over the past multiple decades.

God is the great judge, and a man cannot stand in court and say "your honor, I have broken those laws, but I have done lots of good things too." He will say, "Yes, but I must punish you for breaking my Law." Otherwise a judge would not be just. You cannot rob a bank just once after living a life helping and being good and get away with it. A just judge must punish the crime.

So I believe we must see the state of man, that he is a sinner, wicked and hopeless, hence we are all bad and in the desperate need of God's grace. It takes a humble soul to put our pride away and see that we have no chance without grace..

So I hope I did not ramble on too much for my first post. I hope my outlook was interesting from a different perspective. And I find all of your posts very interesting to read.

Thanks for listening,

CharlesW

"Thank God for sending us His son to die for our sins"

Edited March 13, 2009 by CharlesW

[mel6890]

We are all bad, completely and totally depraved, we all deserve to go to hell. We have all turned and rebelled against God. No person is different from others, we all sin, and it is only through Christ and his grace that we can be made righteous in the eyes of God.

[MikeUpton]

Hello,

I have a Baptist/Christian background, so I thought my "different" perception might be an interesting read for some people. Feel free to comment, and I sure hope I don't sound like I'm preaching here.

I think you ask an excellent question as to the state of man, and the need for God; or more specifically, Gods grace.

we also believe the only way back to God is through Jesus Christ.

Are Mormons Christians?

thanks for your post :)

Edited March 14, 2009 by MikeUpton

[JohnnyRudick]

Hate to add a note of incorrect thinking here but. . .

Job speaks of "evil men"

David speaks of evil men

Solomon Speaks of "evil men"

There are people so "bad" that some of them are referred to in the Scripture as "Children of the Devil".

That's just a fact.

Not all "bad" people are ax welding maniacs.

Some get to high places in government and religion and work the work of their father.

Not all people are "saved" by the same father.

Just a thought.

Bro. Rudick

Edited March 14, 2009 by JohnnyRudick
Spelling

[Elphaba]

1. The quote wasn't from a Church leader. It was from Hugh Nibley.

My bad.

2. It's very insightful way of looking about "wickedness" or "righteousness." He is not defining them in terms of some accumulation good deeds and attitudes or bad. He looks at man as fundamentally inadequate when separate and apart from deity and so defines man's character in terms of which way he is tending. Is he trying to improve - if so, he is relatively good. If he is degenerating, he is relatively bad. It's a matter of relativities.

Well, I know that's a lot more words than: if you're repenting your good, if you're not, your bad.

But I wish they would use a lot more words to explain it the way you did.

Elphaba

Edited March 15, 2009 by Elphaba