Quick description needed...

[superdad69]

It doesn't compute because you didn't see how this person followed me to three different posts and has done nothing but degrade me and my beliefs while I have said absolutely nothing back. According to Merriam "to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief" I'd say that is the right term my fellow atheist. How does that compute? Honestly if you didn't know the situation you shouldn't have got involved.

[Elphaba]

Now to address your crap Great Minds: Atheist Quotes this is why President Franklin is viwed as an atheist.

. . . sigh . . .

I guess being an atheist does not automatically make one smart.

Except for me.

Elphaba

Edited October 27, 2009 by Elphaba

[Elphaba]

It doesn't compute because you didn't see how this person followed me to three different posts and has done nothing but degrade me and my beliefs while I have said absolutely nothing back. According to Merriam "to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief" I'd say that is the right term my fellow atheist. How does that compute? Honestly if you didn't know the situation you shouldn't have got involved.

Sorry. Apparently I deleted that post after you saw it.

Elphaba

[Vort]

Okay, I admit, this is largely my fault. Exhibiting the worst kind of hypocrisy, I call myself a disciple of Christ, only to act in a very unChristlike manner. Whether or not "superdad69" is a liar, as I have openly claimed, I should not have called him out so openly.

To be clear: I do not believe I said anything untrue. Nevertheless, telling the truth is not, by itself, justification for mistreatment. I have mistreated "superdad69", and for that, I apologize.

Now, I will attempt to give "superdad69" the benefit of the doubt. I will attempt to believe, or at least assume, that he is not a bald-faced liar. I will try to assume that he is actually an honest seeker after truth, that he has only the best of intentions, and that he has absolutely no intention whatsoever of gleaning whatever information he can about Mormons from this group, then turn around and manipulate that information into an attack on his web site against the LDS religion and its beliefs. (I confess, it's difficult for me. But I'll try.)

You want an answer? Ok fine. There is only so much crap I can take from a fake internet bully.

You think I'm a fake bully? Or you think I use a fake internet?

Sweet heart I have been to 2 wars and I am a cop.

Wow! That certainly makes you, uh...help me out here. What does it make you? A hero?

By the way, my wife is usually the only one to call me "sweetheart" -- but for you I'll make an exception, honey lips.

What exactly is it you do?

I waste my time posting on the internet. You?

Eventually people like me

Cops? Ex-marines? Atheists?

get fed up with people like you

Internet posters? Fathers? Overweight dog owners?

Please, you really need to be a bit more specific.

and we tend to snap a little.

Maybe you shouldn't carry a gun.

You and people like you are the reason people like me have bad opinions of your belief structure.

Seriously?

What, exactly, do you know of my belief structure? (Other than that I despise liars, that is.)

This is a real question. How could "people like me" be "the reason people like you have bad opinions" of my belief structure, when you know next to nothing about my belief structure?

I try to get an answer and you persecute me for that.

Ah, the bitter taste of persecution! Friend, having someone on the internet call you a "liar" may not be pleasant, but if it's the worst "persecution" you have faced in your life -- as you claim -- then you have led a very, very sheltered life indeed.

Way to go hunny.

Again, my wife is usually the only one who calls me "honey". But I guess I can make another exception for you, Sweetcheeks.

Find a life. Now to address your crap

Finally! Now we're getting somewhere.

Great Minds: Atheist Quotes this is why President Franklin is viwed as an atheist

President Franklin?! Did he come before or after Jefferson?

Please note that not a single one of those quotes you offer give any evidence of Benjamin Franklin as an atheist. By his own account he was not an atheist. So grouping him as an atheist is, well, it's...um...

...let's just say it's false.

Here is Lincoln Positive Atheism's Big List of Abraham Lincoln Quotations

Again, not a single quote on the referenced page shows Lincoln to be atheist. On the contrary, he was explicitly a believer in God -- perhaps not Christian, but most certainly not atheist. To claim him as being so is simply, uh...false.

and if you can't use google I can find the rest for you.

I'm perfectly capable of using Google. Jefferson was a Deist. He can in no honest sense be claimed as an atheist.

I took those cartoons off because it offended other people as well. I didn't know they where there. We also have admins. They are allowed to post stuff.

Yet you claimed, and I quote, "You will not be talked down to or hated I can assure you."

Why did you make such an assurance if you were not capable of keeping it?

Now I know that bit of logic may be beyond your simple mind but that is what happened.

My simple mind sees that you claimed no intent to upset and assured no hatefulness or down-talking, then referenced a web site where we were talked down to, treated with contempt and hatefulness, and in general provoked into being upset.

Seriously. Can you explain this?

Can you see how someone might read your email, visit your site, and conclude that you are, well, let's just say, less than on the up and up?

Or do you still insist that both your motives and your execution were absolutely pure and beyond any possible reproach?

Now if you are done pestering me I'd like to get back to my research.

Just curious: Is your research on the LDS religion going to find its way onto your web site as an attempt to mock and denigrate our religion?

Thank you and have a nice day.

You're welcome and I'll do my best.

P.S. your rock is waiting to welcome you home

Lovely! Home sweet home! Be it ever so humble, etc.!

P.s.s. scurry along little rodent friend

Thanks for the neighborly hint.

(PS It's a "post-postscript", not a "postscript-script".)

[superdad69]

I'm sorry. I have been educated now. I didn't know you where referring to that picture. I thought you meant the other one. Thank you for clarifying. Yes I'm almost done learning about OTHER'S beliefs. Your beliefs I'm not so sure about. If you would have read what I wrote about the others religions I tried very hard to be unbiased in their description. You can get mad at the pictures if you want but nobody there was EVER talked down to and THAT is what I assured. If you are offended by art work, again, I apologize. I assumed you where a woman. Again I apologize. Your opinion of the Presidents and others I mentioned is different from mine. Again I apologize. The fact that you can't read the same things I read and get the same information I got out of them is also a great regret of mine. I'm sorry. Persecute means to cause someone grief by the way and you where causing me grief but now that I know a little more about you I feel bad for you. So again I apologize. And I'm also very sorry that I typed p.s.s. rather than pps. I was in a hurry. I got kids to raise. For that however I am not sorry. Do I have a gun and is that relevant? No it is not but again I am sorry. Is there anything else you would like for me to apologize for in order for you to go away so I can finish getting my answers? Or is that good enough? Oh yeah and thanks for calling me sweet cheeks! lol that was funny! I apologize for laughing also if that offended you....

[Moksha]

I for sure wouldn't trust South Park to be anywhere near the truth.

I've doubted that Kenny really gets killed in every episode. I think the scriptwriters were projecting their angst onto Kenny instead.

Hey was that great atheist minds in reference to Elphaba?

[DigitalShadow]

A few observations from a (relatively) unbiased perspective:

- I don't think superdad intends to use the information learned here to mock LDS beliefs since the other summaries seem to make reasonable efforts to be fair.

- I'm sorry superdad, but from one atheist to another, I think your site is a bit unintentionally condescending. For example, repeated assurances that you're not trying to make anyone feel dumb.

- I understand Vort's concerns and can see how he might get the wrong impression since many of the slides on the front page of the linked appear counterproductive to the stated purpose of the site. I disagree with how he went about showing his concern, but that's just how he is and I've seen him tear in to plenty of theists as well.

[superdad69]

I agree with you totally. I have tried to manage this stuff and fix it but was not getting answers. Before he said anything to begin with it was worse! But since I wasn't being told exactly what the problem was I didn't change anything. Now that the atheist has told me what is offensive I will try AGAIN to rectify the problem. Thank toy for being unbiased and honest. I will make every effort to make others feel more comfortable with my sites content. Again the site is now 3 days old and the majority of my users are atheist so I have never had this problem. I will fix it. Thank you

[Misshalfway]

Superdad, if you don't mind me asking, I'd like to understand the purpose for your inquiry. I get that you have started this website and you wanna invite theists to come and participate. Why? So you can put whoever you deem as ignorant back in their place? So that you can corral a bunch of listeners to project your ideas on?

If you wanted to create an unbiased community that was open to the discussing of varying opinions on the existence of God, it seems you would have done your homework before you posted anything. And I am sorry to say that I don't think you have succeeded.

And now you are here suddenly asking all these doctrinal questions and trying to appear as though you want to know the truth about us. I am sorry but it appears suspicious to me. Not that this site doesn't feel a responsibility to set the record straight. Just that it feels like a front.

I guess I sympathize with Vort as much as I think he needs to suspend the sarcasm and refocus his efforts on a productive relaxation exercizes such as breathing and thinking happy thoughts. I have visited your website and tried to figure out your purpose. Right now I feel if I joined your website I would be placing a voluntary target on my back. If I join these explanative conversations here, I wonder if I am not being insulted in some other way. I generally as a rule try to give everyone who comes with inquiries to this site the benefit of the doubt. I continue to extend that feeling to you, but I must say at this point I am feeling the weight of the doubt and wonder what on earth your purpose is. It seems clear to me that your own words on the website state that you are passionately against anything that even looks like a belief in God. Why do even care if we believe in three heavens?

[Vort]

I think [Vort] needs to suspend the sarcasm and refocus his efforts on a productive relaxation exercizes such as breathing and thinking happy thoughts.

Right you are, Miss½!

Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........................

[bytor2112]

President Franklin?! Did he come before or after Jefferson?

No....right before President Hancock...I think.

[superdad69]

Superdad, if you don't mind me asking, I'd like to understand the purpose for your inquiry. I get that you have started this website and you wanna invite theists to come and participate. Why? So you can put whoever you deem as ignorant back in their place? So that you can corral a bunch of listeners to project your ideas on?

If you wanted to create an unbiased community that was open to the discussing of varying opinions on the existence of God, it seems you would have done your homework before you posted anything. And I am sorry to say that I don't think you have succeeded.

And now you are here suddenly asking all these doctrinal questions and trying to appear as though you want to know the truth about us. I am sorry but it appears suspicious to me. Not that this site doesn't feel a responsibility to set the record straight. Just that it feels like a front.

I guess I sympathize with Vort as much as I think he needs to suspend the sarcasm and refocus his efforts on a productive relaxation exercizes such as breathing and thinking happy thoughts. I have visited your website and tried to figure out your purpose. Right now I feel if I joined your website I would be placing a voluntary target on my back. If I join these explanative conversations here, I wonder if I am not being insulted in some other way. I generally as a rule try to give everyone who comes with inquiries to this site the benefit of the doubt. I continue to extend that feeling to you, but I must say at this point I am feeling the weight of the doubt and wonder what on earth your purpose is. It seems clear to me that your own words on the website state that you are passionately against anything that even looks like a belief in God. Why do even care if we believe in three heavens?

I'm gonna completely ignore the sarcasm of the other posters because I think I am above that. To address your questions if you read what I wrote then you would know what my intentions are. I'm NOT against religious people being religious. If you need religion so be it. However I AM in fact against religion as a whole. I don't think I endorse hatred of religion although clearly some here endorse hatred of those who choose not to participate. Personally I think that if you WOULD have read what I WROTE weather than take a look at the art work you would see that I am being as unbiased as I can with my descriptions of what religious groups are and what their and I will quote "basic concepts" are.

As to why I didn't do research...well again if you would have read what I posted on the subject I WAS reading while posting here. The problem here is....well....have you ever googled your religion? Some very spiteful and mean things have been said of it and your whole belief structure. So being UNBIASED I came to actual believers to get the facts from you. The fact that you and/or others can not see that is no fault of mine. It's just simply the truth.

I have been given some very useful information from some about your religion on the other hand. The thing that almost amazes me is that most of this information came from NON-BELIEVERS and Atheists. In my opinion yours and others here have the right to be a little paranoid that I'm here with some type on alternate motive than what I am claiming to have. But if I have learned anything about your religion it is that YOU or anyone like you (VORT) are not my judges. In your belief I can't be judged by you.

So My question to you and people like you? Where do you get off attempting it? I did nothing wrong but ask questions. If that is wrong then please show me where your beliefs express that. If they do say that is wrong I will also apologize for that as well.

[Misshalfway]

I am not judging you, but I am trying to discern you. I like to discuss my religion with people I perceive as friends. All I am saying is that you and your website seem like two different people.

[superdad69]

Well I can assure you we are one in the same. lol Those are my beliefs..and I don't see how you come to that conclusion...

the following is a direct quote from my site. "The basic concept of Christianity in my opinion is that God was born to this Earth as Jesus. He taught man how to live by God's law and how to properly worship him. While doing so he was declared a heretic by the powers that be at that time which at that time was a crime. He was put on trial for his "sins" and found guilty. His sentence was death by crucifixion. Jesus believed that he was to die for all Man's sin so that whoever believed in him would go to Heaven when they died. Once crucified he was buried in a cave-like tomb. He then went to hell and defeated the devil and took the keys to hell's gates back to heaven. After 3 days he was resurrected and spoke to his followers. The Christian faith believes that if you follow Jesus and his teaching that you will go to heaven. You must EXCLUSIVELY believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God and that his father in the ONE true god. This was all written in a book (the bible) by average men who where guided by God on what to write. If you do not believe and follow the teachings within you are damned to hell eternally."

Does that sound biased to you in anyway? Cause it sounds pretty clear to me. I think you jumped the gun a little. If you don't believe me here it is The basic concept of Christianity - Atheist's Corner

[Misshalfway]

I can't remember the exact quote and I can't refer to it because the other thread was deleted. But I did quote you there. It seemed to me that you stated that the objectives of your site was to basically put theists in their place. I wish I could quote you.

Perhaps I am "jumping the gun", but I am not the only one that was put off by the premise of your site. Even our resident atheists could see that your site contained offensive material. I have been impressed by your apparent desire to recieve helpful feedback and adjust your approach.

But I will say that it is interesting to me that you come here and question us and who and what we are. Why is it that you become defensive when I respectfully do the same? Especially when you yourself brought with you reasons that I should doubt you.

[ryanh]

Does that sound biased to you in anyway?

You really, truly, can't grasp why that is not palatable can you? Perhaps you just need to have a tiny bit of faith, that when multiple people plainly (both sarcastically, and in incredibly friendly manners) tell you they do see patent bias, it actually is there, whether you tried to or not.

I'm not so sure many "Christian" sects would fit into that narrow description anyway.

[superdad69]

Seriously?? Can you blame me for being just a little defensive? Lets look at some of the things that have been said to and about me and ask our self if that is REALLY a question you should ask...yes I have admitted COUNTLESS times that my site DID contain material that could have been offensive. AGAIN I will repeat myself...I DID NOT KNOW IT WAS OFFENSIVE OR THAT IT WAS THERE!!! As soon as I was alerted to its presence it was REMOVED!!! So how many times am I going to be asked this question? It seems to me the same comments are being made just re-worded to fit someone another person's attempt to attack me. Bottom line is the things you and others found offensive where removed. Forgive my ignorance of your customs and what not. Did you know that if you show the bottom of your feet to a person in Iraq its offensive? Or shaking their Left hand is frowned upon? Even if you did I didn't untill I went. How can I know what is offensive untill I'm told it is???

[superdad69]

You really, truly, can't grasp why that is not palatable can you? Perhaps you just need to have a tiny bit of faith, that when multiple people plainly (both sarcastically, and in incredibly friendly manners) tell you they do see patent bias, it actually is there, whether you tried to or not.

I'm not so sure many "Christian" sects would fit into that narrow description anyway.

Narrow??? What did you want?? A small novel?? It's a BASIC concept!! No I'm will NOT have faith. Ergo ATHEIST!!!! I was simply trying to get a grasp on a subject! If I was asking you about milk and you where a dairy farmer would you bite my head off in the same manor if I was to say it is a white dairy substance that comes from cows? Come on people....it's GENERAL!!! It means GENERAL!!! If you want me to have "faith" your barking up the wrong tree.

[Vort]

I can't remember the exact quote and I can't refer to it because the other thread was deleted. But I did quote you there. It seemed to me that you stated that the objectives of your site was to basically put theists in their place. I wish I could quote you.

Miss½, here is your post:

***********************************************

Here is your goal.....according to your own words.

My goal in this forum is to educate and debate ALL theists. So common is it to have Christians and Atheists go at it. I'm opening this to ANY and ALL religions including Christianity as well as Wicca, Islam, even Satanism if they will come out and argue their standpoint. The bottom line is I have and issue with ALL Theists. Let me clarify this. By "issue" I do not mean a personal problem with your PERSONAL belief structure. I have a problem with Evangelistic forms of religion or forms of religion who do not tolerate other beliefs to the extent they are willing to harm themselves or others in order to make that point. I also, as Richard Dawkins, have a problem with religions forcing these beliefs down a child's throat by calling them (insert religion here) children. It is not only wrong but , should be illegal. I also have a problem with Theists who try to substitute (insert wholly book here) with science. Just because "God said it 2000 years or so ago" does not make it scientific or even evidence of any kind for that matter. I have a problem with Theists believing they are the "one true way" and all others are in some form "damned". It reminds me of George Bush with all these scare tactics! It is ridiculous. Stop scaring people to believe what you want them to believe. FACE it, without your ultimate "evil" deity what would be the purpose of your ultimate "good" deity? Finally, I would like to make one more thing VERY clear. I am not here to bash you, or make you feel dumb. If you feel dumb because I, or someone else educated you on a fact that you where unaware of I will not apologize for that. But I will promise that ANY LEGITIMATE CLAIM WILL NOT BE SCOFFED AT OR LOOKED DOWN UPON. We are only human and it is human to error. All I ask is that you do the same to the other members of this forum and give mutual respect top them. Thank you for reading and if you have any questions PLEASE feel free to ask. I or one of the members/admins will try our hardest to help in any way we can. Oh, by the way, I welcome you if you are trying to "convert us"....please do. By all means!

It does seem rather interesting that you want people to come and try and convert you. Perhaps you are simply coming here to bait us.

[Misshalfway]

Sorry. But I have a hard time buying that you didn't have a little hint that perhaps your site might be offensive. In fact the title of your original post was "I don't want to offend anybody". And I was the first to post a reply asking you why you were worried about being perceived as offensive. That was before I visited your site, obviously. And now you are saying you had no idea? And you really want me to buy it too.

Wow. Ok. The sad thing is that I am generally someone who would be happy to forgive and move on. If you genuinely want to know LDS doctrine, why wouldn't I be happy to entertain a respectful conversation even if it was only for educational or curiousities sake? At this point, I am fairly convinced that your intensions are better than I had originally supposed. But please don't insult my intelligence either and claim you didn't know your stuff was potentially offensive.

[ryanh]

Many community colleges offer basic courses that introduce people to the religions of the world. I took one such class myself. It would seem that your labors would be made much easier if you were to leverage the understanding of the textbooks for such a class rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. In this manner, you can obtain true, objective, and clear synopses of the various religions of the world from experts on the subject matter.

If you wanted to learn about milk, you would not go to a dairy farmer, but a agriculture expert. Dairy farmers would know about the intricate details of milk production and harvesting, but not be the best source for info on milk.

Faith in people and their intents does not equal faith in deity. I fully understand you are an atheist, and what that means. I don’t need to be yelled at with 13 exclamation points in a short post – esp if you want to engage in productive dialog.

Your extreme reactivity is not helping your cause in the least.

[superdad69]

I got a similar result at a Christian site I was posting on to write their general beliefs. Of course some of them are not happy. But in my opinion it does GENERALLY explain their beliefs. That is ALL I have been trying to do. If your intelligence is insulted I apologize. But these are just facts. Like I said...believe me or not. It is irrelevant to my work. I am still reading the second chapter of a book someone here gave me so I don't want to write the one on Mormonism quite yet. I want to have a better understanding of the general principle first. I'm sure when I finish you or someone else will probably say its to "narrow" or some other negative feedback but as I have said all I'm going for is a GENERAL UNBIASED description

[superdad69]

Many community colleges offer basic courses that introduce people to the religions of the world. I took one such class myself. It would seem that your labors would be made much easier if you were to leverage the understanding of the textbooks for such a class rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. In this manner, you can obtain true, objective, and clear synopses of the various religions of the world from experts on the subject matter.

If you wanted to learn about milk, you would not go to a dairy farmer, but a agriculture expert. Dairy farmers would know about the intricate details of milk production and harvesting, but not be the best source for info on milk.

Faith in people and their intents does not equal faith in deity. I fully understand you are an atheist, and what that means. I don’t need to be yelled at with 13 exclamation points in a short post – esp if you want to engage in productive dialog.

Your extreme reactivity is not helping your cause in the least.

My cause has been helped. I got my information. You are just the latest in a string of ridiculous attacks on my character and my intentions. I apologize for the punctuation. To answer you NO i would not go to a quote "expert" I would go to the people milking the cows. I would go to the people feeding the cows. Why? Because generally EXPERTS are so caught up in being EXPERTS they forget the common things. On the other hand people doing it every day don't. Hence I came to believers who do it every day. Defy logic?

And I guess your extreme hatred is?

Edited October 27, 2009 by superdad69

[ryanh]

You are just the latest in a string of ridiculous attacks on my character and my intentions.

I would appreciate if you could point out where I attacked your character. I didn't have such intent, and if I did, I would like to understand where so that I might avoid doing something similar in the future. I seriously was not aware of one comment or insinuation regarding character, and honestly would like to understand where I offended.

[Misshalfway]

It sounds to me, from the above quote provided by Vort and your responses to my genuine concerns here, that you are angry towards religion in general. It sounds to me from another thread that perhaps you have valid reason to feel angry as it appears religion was literally shoved down your throat. If I am correct in my observation, then I am sorry for your experience. I can understand why science might be a more appealing place to put your trust.

It does sound to me from the above quote that you want to be angry and support your anger and have someone to target your anger at, yet you don't want any of us to be offended when you do it. And you think that simply stating that all perspectives will be treated fairly is enough to counter all the accusations that feel, to me anyway, a representation of your personal experience rather than the truthful evaluation of the whole.

I actually think I might understand that. Perhaps you just want to be heard and understood like the rest of us. I just think it is a little naive to expect people to accept being a target of your biased characterizations without any objection. And I am sad too that you can't see that I might have a valid reason to question your intensions. Sadly, it doesn't seem to be part of your agenda to care about that.

I wish you well in your fact finding mission. I respectfully decline the invitation to be part of your site. I am sad you couldn't address my sincere concerns with understanding rather than defenses and personal attacks. Believe it or not, I really did from the beginning, give you the benefit of the doubt.