I hate car shopping

[DigitalShadow]

As you can probably tell, I need to vent a little. Words can not describe how much I hate car shopping. I honestly don't know much about cars at all and know even less about haggling, so this one event somehow manages to combine the two areas that I have the LEAST expertise in.

Before yesterday, I had only been car shopping once just after I got married. We got a brand new fully loaded Mazda 3 and probably paid way too much for it, but I still love that car and don't regret the purchase. So we finally decided we needed 2 cars and wanted a relatively cheap, reliable used car and decided to look around a bit. I quickly learned that it is not possible to casually look at cars.

The first place we went was very infuriating. I told them that the only things I had in mind were cost and reliability and wanted to see what there selection was on less expensive end. They proceeded to show me three cars they thought I would like and made me test drive them before telling me even the slightest hint of cost and even then they only wanted to talk to me in rough monthly payments and I couldn't seem to get a straight answer out of them on anything. Basically they want me to pick out the car I like most, then negotiate price with me, but that is opposite of what I wanted to do because how much I like the car strongly depends on the total debt it is going to set me back.

The second place we went to appeared much nicer and more straight forward, but getting a cost estimate before trying to negotiate about buying it was still like pulling teeth. Finally I test drove one that I liked, it had low mileage, seemed rather reliable from the googling I did from my iPhone and I thought I could get for under 10k. This was only the second place I had been so I didn't want to make a decision yet, but he said to come in and see if he could make me a deal. Stupidly, I agreed and we started talking about actual price since this seemed to be the only way to get a "real" price out of someone.

After filling out the initial credit check information for us, he comes back saying the retail price was 14k, but he would give it to me for 12k. I told him that was way too much and asked where he was getting those numbers because the bluebook estimate I saw was around 10k. He went back and looked up some stuff and printed out a bluebook estimate that included all the specific features and came out to 10,400 which seemed more in line with the limited stuff I looked up online and he said he would give it to me for 10,000. I told him that we were still looking and unless he could give it to me for a very good deal like 8,000 with all the fees included, we were going to look elsewhere first. He went back to talk to his manager or whatever and to my surprise came back and said we had a deal.

What I didn't realize until I had already signed nearly all of the financing was that apparently an "OTD" offer refers to how much you are paying aside from your deposit, so really the offer was 11,000 including all tax and fees since I had a 3,000 deposit. The base price ended up being 9,500 which is still nearly 1,000 under the bluebook listing but I am seriously unhappy about being 3,000 more in debt that I thought I would be and that it was not made clear when we transitioned from talking about the actual price of the car to a number on top of what I was already using for a deposit.

Alright, done ranting now. So if you managed to get through the whole thing, did I get ripped off? Is 1,000 under bluebook (not including tax and fees) at least a decent deal?

[Just_A_Guy]

If the salesman outright lied to you ("final price $8,000"), you might try going to your state's consumer protection division.

[allredcon]

1000 under BB isn't a bad deal. But I'd still stand my ground and say "I told you 8000, PERIOD." I hate car salesmen. I'm a salesman at Best Buy; I love not being paid commission because I tell people the ugly truth haha.

[DigitalShadow]

He clearly said $8,000 "out the door" and it was even written on the paper, but the finance person and everyone else looked at me like I was an idiot when I told them that I thought the actual price was $8,000 rather than $8,000 + my deposit. It was 11pm and we hadn't eaten dinner yet and I had already signed everything but the very last piece of paper which happened to be the only one with all the pricing clearly laid out.

[prisonchaplain]

Sometimes it goes the other way. We went to our local chevrolet dealer to buy a Prizm. The salemen informed us that they didn't have any, but would we like to buy a Mazda Protege instead? (They bought the Mazda dealership, it turns out). Okay, we'll test drive. Ugh! Too small, to tin-cannish. Hey, you have any late model American cars, instead? Of course his eyes lit up (more profit in used cars). Long story short, for the same money we were going to buy a new Prizm with, we got a low mileage 5-year old Lincoln Continental!

A few years later we wanted a minvan or SUV. Went to look at an '03 Durango, but it was sold. (This was '06). As we were leaving they say, "Hey, this came in yesterday, take a look). It was an '01--but with 12.5K miles on it. Top of the line, two-tone sewn leather...sweet. The final price was roughly $1000 below book, but they gave us $500 above book on the Continental.

It's the best of both worlds when customers and salespeople leave the deal happy. It's the worst of worlds when you feel snookered. You might want to watch the movie "Flywheel." It's about a used car salesmen that gets religion and does right. Low budget, but sweet and hope-filled.

[rayhale]

I understand what your saying, DigitalShadow. I hate car salesmen too. I was lied to the two times I went to buy a car. I’m not rich and am forced to look at cars at, or below, $10,000, and at that price, I understand that you can’t get all that great cars at that price, however, my first car, that I bought, the salesman said that there was no problems with the car, but no sooner then I bought it, I had to replace the front axle, buy a new battery, replace the tires, and several optional things costing thousands, making a $6,000 car into a $10,000 car, if I knew I had to spend SO much in repairs, I would have kept looking. The second time I was trying to buy a car, I was seriously looking at one car, so much so that the salesman, after looking at my credit rating, said that I couldn’t buy it on my own, which I knew, the person that was going to co-sign with me wouldn’t be able to come until after the weekend, so the salesman, wanting to sale me the car so much, and thought that he already had the sale, let me test drive the car for the weekend, I thought that would be good, so he brought out some papers to get started, but before I signed ANYTHING I asked if anything I was signing I was obligated to buy the car, he said, no, so I signed the papers, well after the weekend, my co-signer said that she found a better car for a better price, so I went to the car lot to give it back, well, guess what, the car salesman TRIED to say that I DID sign papers that I was obligated to buy the car, I informed him that I was clear when I asked BEFORE I signed any of the papers he gave me to sign, if I was obligated to buy the car. He didn’t give me any answers and just kept telling me that they will look for a different car for me, I was so mad that he wouldn’t answer me, that I asked for the manager, when the manager came out, he told me that I didn’t sign anything obligating.

Sorry for my rant, my suggestions to you are:

Come with a friend, that could ground you to buy a car that is right for you.

Write a list of questions to ask the salesman.

If your buying a used car, insist on a independent car check to find out what really is wrong with the car.

Remember that the car salesman is JUST that a salesman, NOT an expert, and even if he or she, is an expert, he, or she will mislead, misinform, and out right lie to you, about the car.

CARFAX (an online service that gathers information on cars) does NOT tell all important information on the car. I should know I looked up my own car on the service, and it did NOT say anything about me replacing the front axle, which I would like to know if I was buying the car.

READ THE FINE PRINT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read and understand the contract that your signing, ask questions, and realize that unless you ask, or say the right word, the salesman WON’T say, salesmen have a kind of, ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy, if you don’t ask about something, they won’t tell you.

[Guest Alana]

I actually won't buy used cars from lots. As far as your situation, it seems ok, but if you really don't like it, some states let you go back within a certain amount of time.

The reason I dont' like buying from lots is because retail blue book price is so much more than private party.

For instance, this year we bought a 2000 Ford Windstar with 85K miles.

Blue Book Retail value: $5260

Blue Book Private Party: $3710

What I actually paid: $3400

To make the deal even sweeter, the people were super nice and invited us in for cookies and they had all the paper work for oil changes every 3000 miles. Ahhh I feel smug:)

Of course there may be a higher probability that something is wrong with the car that they aren't telling you about. If you question the owners honesty, you can take the car in for a check up... that will still cost you a lot less than the difference between retail and private party.

[DigitalShadow]

I understand what your saying, DigitalShadow. I hate car salesmen too. I was lied to the two times I went to buy a car. I’m not rich and am forced to look at cars at, or below, $10,000, and at that price, I understand that you can’t get all that great cars at that price, however, my first car, that I bought, the salesman said that there was no problems with the car, but no sooner then I bought it, I had to replace the front axle, buy a new battery, replace the tires, and several optional things costing thousands, making a $6,000 car into a $10,000 car, if I knew I had to spend SO much in repairs, I would have kept looking. The second time I was trying to buy a car, I was seriously looking at one car, so much so that the salesman, after looking at my credit rating, said that I couldn’t buy it on my own, which I knew, the person that was going to co-sign with me wouldn’t be able to come until after the weekend, so the salesman, wanting to sale me the car so much, and thought that he already had the sale, let me test drive the car for the weekend, I thought that would be good, so he brought out some papers to get started, but before I signed ANYTHING I asked if anything I was signing I was obligated to buy the car, he said, no, so I signed the papers, well after the weekend, my co-signer said that she found a better car for a better price, so I went to the car lot to give it back, well, guess what, the car salesman TRIED to say that I DID sign papers that I was obligated to buy the car, I informed him that I was clear when I asked BEFORE I signed any of the papers he gave me to sign, if I was obligated to buy the car. He didn’t give me any answers and just kept telling me that they will look for a different car for me, I was so mad that he wouldn’t answer me, that I asked for the manager, when the manager came out, he told me that I didn’t sign anything obligating.

Sorry for my rant, my suggestions to you are:

Come with a friend, that could ground you to buy a car that is right for you.

Write a list of questions to ask the salesman.

If your buying a used car, insist on a independent car check to find out what really is wrong with the car.

Remember that the car salesman is JUST that a salesman, NOT an expert, and even if he or she, is an expert, he, or she will mislead, misinform, and out right lie to you, about the car.

CARFAX (an online service that gathers information on cars) does NOT tell all important information on the car. I should know I looked up my own car on the service, and it did NOT say anything about me replacing the front axle, which I would like to know if I was buying the car.

READ THE FINE PRINT!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read and understand the contract that your signing, ask questions, and realize that unless you ask, or say the right word, the salesman WON’T say, salesmen have a kind of, ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy, if you don’t ask about something, they won’t tell you.

My friend just had a similar experience buying a used car. It was his first car so his credit would only allow a $5000 car but he figured he could pay it off quickly to build credit and at least have transportation in the mean time. A couple days after the 30 day warranty from the dealership ran out, the thermostat fell off and the engine seriously overheated. $3000 in repairs later it was up and running again, but in another couple weeks it had a total meltdown and now he has to scrap it.

[mnn727]

Having been a car salesman at one point in my life, it really depends on the dealership owner or manager how the customers are treated. In many cases they won't let the salesman talk price until they have you settled on a car, and in many cases the salsperson has no idea how low the owner/manager will go. I stick with placs like CarMax where this price you pay is clearly on the sticker and there is no haggling.

However let me throw out some ways of getting the best deal at a 'normal' dealership

Shop the last week of the month and ask for the most experienced salesperson -- salespeople have quotas to make and get their salary increased based on how many cars they sell. New salepeople usually are not close, experienced sales people know that by selling just a couple more cars they can increase the percentage they get off of every car they sold that month and would be willing to take less profit on one car to get more from every car they sold

example: a saleperson earns (for example) 30% of the profitfor all the cars they sold if they sell up to 10 cars in a month, but if they sell 11-15 they get 40% of the profit of all the cars they sold and if they sell 16 or more they get 50% of the profit from all the cars they sold that month -- you might be that salespersons 16th car.

Sometimes they are given 'spiffs' seLL 15 cars, get a trip to Vegas.

Thats why you go the last week of the month and ask for the most experienced salesperson.

3 RULES to follow so they don't wear you down (something some dealers attempt to do):

1. Always eat before you go.

2. Plan of spending 4 or more hours

3. If you give them the keys to your current car to get a trade in price, ALWAYS make it a spare key on a ring with nothing else on it, that way if they jack you around too much you can pull your keys out and leave.

4. if you are stuck at an impass, don't be afraid to stand up and start to leave -- usually a sales manager will rush over and see what he or she can do to 'earn your business'

Edited October 28, 2009 by mnn727

[pam]

3. If you give them the keys to your current car to get a trade in price, ALWAYS make it a spare key on a ring with nothing else on it, that way if they jack you around too much you can pull your keys out and leave.

Excellent advice on this one. I had this happen to me once. I finally had to say..if you don't give me my keys back, I call the police. I got them back immediately and I will NEVER go back to that dealership again. In fact if I hear anyone mention they are going there...I do my darndest to talk them out of it.

[Misshalfway]

I have nothing helpful to add and I don't group all car salesman into the same lot. But I can sympathize as car shopping is one of my least favorite activities as well. I recently purchased a car and ran into similar issues not to mention the insulting treatment some still give to female consumers. I suddenly felt the need to burn my bra.

[DigitalShadow]

Having been a car salesman at one point in my life, it really depends on the dealership owner or manager how the customers are treated. In many cases they won't let the salesman talk price until they have you settled on a car, and in many cases the salsperson has no idea how low the owner/manager will go. I stick with placs like CarMax where this price you pay is clearly on the sticker and there is no haggling.

However let me throw out some ways of getting the best deal at a 'normal' dealership

Shop the last week of the month and ask for the most experienced salesperson -- salespeople have quotas to make and get their salary increased based on how many cars they sell. New salepeople usually are not close, experienced sales people know that by selling just a couple more cars they can increase the percentage they get off of every car they sold that month and would be willing to take less profit on one car to get more from every car they sold

example: a saleperson earns (for example) 30% of the profitfor all the cars they sold if they sell up to 10 cars in a month, but if they sell 11-15 they get 40% of the profit of all the cars they sold and if they sell 16 or more they get 50% of the profit from all the cars they sold that month -- you might be that salespersons 16th car.

Sometimes they are given 'spiffs' seLL 15 cars, get a trip to Vegas.

Thats why you go the last week of the month and ask for the most experienced salesperson.

3 RULES to follow so they don't wear you down (something some dealers attempt to do):

1. Always eat before you go.

2. Plan of spending 4 or more hours

3. If you give them the keys to your current car to get a trade in price, ALWAYS make it a spare key on a ring with nothing else on it, that way if they jack you around too much you can pull your keys out and leave.

4. if you are stuck at an impass, don't be afraid to stand up and start to leave -- usually a sales manager will rush over and see what he or she can do to 'earn your business'

Carmax was going to be my next stop, but from the selection they had on their website it looked like they didn't even have a car under 10k to buy. I guess all in all I probably got a good deal, but the deception and tactics really get to me. Next time, if I don't see prices on the cars I'm not even going to bother looking there.

Thanks for the tips, I could have definitely benefited from knowing rule 1 yesterday. :)

[john doe]

Huh. I go to the same dealership all the time and they never pressure me to buy a car.

[Bini]

^

You must be the lucky odd one.

I've had not so pleasant experiences at car dealerships as well. But I don't plan on upgrading to a nicer car any time soon.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm I the only one that gets more than I went in for, and leaves feeling good about it? :-)

[john doe]

^

You must be the lucky odd one.

I've had not so pleasant experiences at car dealerships as well. But I don't plan on upgrading to a nicer car any time soon.

Yeah, just the other day the general manager of the dealership was asking me about my birthday plans. I get Christmas cards every year from them, and this last summer I kept getting coupons for free pizza fom one of the bosses. I probably ended up with 4 or 5 coupon books. If I happen to be there on a Saturday during lunchtime they always feed me too. Nice guys.

[pam]

Actually I've been to the same dealership that John Doe has on a couple of occasions and not one sales guy even approached me there.

[john doe]

Must be the 'soft-sell' approach.

[Dravin]

... brand new... paid way too much for it...

Yep. Used cars are where the value is at.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Dravin

[BenRaines]

The thermostat fell out of someones car? How is that possible? I have probably changed 50 of them in my lifetime and they are not easy to get out.

Ben Raines

[pam]

Maybe you just don't know how to do it correctly Ben. hahaha

[sixpacktr]

Do not go to a used car lot to buy your car! Go on Craigslist, choose a couple that look promising, and then go check them out with someone. I will NEVER buy a used car from a lot. A lot of times it is from the auto auctions, and the guy has no clue what the service was, how it was driven, etc. If you go to the owner's house, you will get it for less than on a car lot, and you can tell if it was taken care of or not. I got my 98 Ford Pickup from Craigslist, and am very happy with it. The PO took care of the vehicle, and I have had almost no problems with it.

Don't go to a lot! Go with CL.

[prisonchaplain]

Actually I've been to the same dealership that John Doe has on a couple of occasions and not one sales guy even approached me there.

Were you offended?

[pam]

Nope..especially since I wasn't there to look at purchasing a car.

[john doe]

The thermostat fell out of someones car? How is that possible? I have probably changed 50 of them in my lifetime and they are not easy to get out.

Ben Raines

I have them fall out all the time. Sometimes the cussed things won't stay in place while you try to align the housing bolts. But once the bolts are in they can't fall out unless you pull the housing off again.

Maybe SD means it went out, failed, or stuck closed, causing the engine to overheat, and the guy drove for a long time before noticing the problem. By the time he noticed the problem the damage had been done and the engine was trashed. That would make sense to me.