Beer Good. Meat Bad. But we do the opposite.

[Vort]

Thank you, Vort. Your feeling that I am going to "hell" though I break no church rules or requirements and simply am asking a question is dually noted.

Please refrain from putting words in my mouth, Cydonia.

[MarginOfError]

Pam, read the whole post that I quoted and it should clear up your confusion.

Misshalfway, Hinckley said that we should not have caffeine, but we still go with the coffee and tea understanding. This is done because Hinckley's statement was not "revelation" (at least that is the answer I've always heard).

So the statement of prophets regarding things is not considered revelation unless given as revelation.

No further revelation seems to have been made to supersede the D&C 89 revelation. So why do we not follow it?

Now I'm thinking you didn't read (you at least haven't acknowledged it) my second post which gives an example of an additional and official statement that updates the Word of Wisdom.

With regards to meat, I think you first have to clarify what "sparingly" means. I don't know the answer to that. And I don't know of any binding reference that clarifies it.

[MarginOfError]

Cydonia:

D&C 89 cannot be taken at face value in the 21st Century because it has been modified by the prophets in later years, namely 1930 when it became a commandment. There are so many general conference sermons (I think you can take them as revelations) about this topic that you can read that it is fatuous to continue your arguments.

You also show your ignorance regarding beer as a "mild" drink. Beer as produced around the world has many levels of alcohol content, and even here in the US it is subject to varying controls regulating content from 3.2% on up. In Germany, a country to which I have traveled extensively, it is the national beverage. The alcohol content there is generally higher and the beverage can only have 4 contents to qualify as beer: barley, malt, hops and water. If you have ever been to Germany you will realize that the level of alcohol consumption is much higher than here in the US, and that alcoholism, and related problems are much more evident in public than they are here. I will say that in some ways the German public is more tolerant of certain behaviors than in the US. In toto however, I think it's safe to say that beer is not a "mild" drink.

No no no no no no no. See here.

[hordak]

What are you talking about?

The D&C doesn't say meat. It says flesh of beasts.

In regards to "splitting hairs," I feel I'm doing just the opposite.

The common mild barley beverage drunk in the midwest at the time of the D&C 89 revelation was beer. So we can discuss Japanese teas made of barley all we want. But Brigham Young knew "hot drinks" meant coffee and tea because that was common sense. That's what they had to drink that was hot. Hot drinks doesn't include hot chocolate because that was not a common commodity amongst the saints at the revelation of "WoW."

So to say meat good, bear bad, is to construct a "split hair" argument built around the meaning of "sparingly" and that some cultures far removed from our own use barley to make tea.

But if you take the very clear statements at face value, as Brigham Young perscribed, then they say beer's OK and meat should only be used in times of famine and cold.

So why do we not take D&C 89 at face value?

I think you have too many people "against " you to keep it straight. For the record I agree. D&C 89 is referring to Beer. My "spiting hairs" remark was in response to you saying the WoW isn't a commandment. Because it is necessary to be baptized and go to the temple, and these things are necessary to return to God i would say it qualifies as a commandment.

[Misshalfway]

Misshalfway, Hinckley said that we should not have caffeine, but we still go with the coffee and tea understanding. This is done because Hinckley's statement was not "revelation" (at least that is the answer I've always heard).

So the statement of prophets regarding things is not considered revelation unless given as revelation.

No further revelation seems to have been made to supersede the D&C 89 revelation. So why do we not follow it?

Here is what it says in the D&C study guide. Remember that the Wof W was NOT orginally given as a commandment or part of our covenants as we do today. (as it says in vs. 2) But later it was changed and clarified into specifics and clarifications.

Although the Word of Wisdom was received on 27 February 1833, its acceptance by individual members of the Church was gradual. On 9 September 1851, some eighteen years after it was given, the Patriarch to the Church, John Smith, delivered a talk in general conference on the Word of Wisdom. During his address, President Brigham Young arose and proposed that all Saints formally covenant to abstain from tea, coffee, tobacco, whiskey, and “all things mentioned in the Word of Wisdom” (“Minutes of the General Conference,” Millennial Star, 1 Feb. 1852, p. 35). The motion was accepted unanimously and became binding as a commandment for all Church members thereafter.

Bishops and stake presidents are responsible for determining whether members are worthy to receive Church ordinances such as baptism or those available in the temple or to enter the temple to receive ordinances for others. Keeping the Word of Wisdom is a part of that worthiness.

Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual

[Misshalfway]

I might also add that anything given over the pulpit at GC is absolutely revelation even if it isn't added to the canon.

[Cydonia]

Although the Word of Wisdom was received on 27 February 1833, its acceptance by individual members of the Church was gradual. On 9 September 1851, some eighteen years after it was given, the Patriarch to the Church, John Smith, delivered a talk in general conference on the Word of Wisdom. During his address, President Brigham Young arose and proposed that all Saints formally covenant to abstain from tea, coffee, tobacco, whiskey, and “all things mentioned in the Word of Wisdom” (“Minutes of the General Conference,” Millennial Star, 1 Feb. 1852, p. 35). The motion was accepted unanimously and became binding as a commandment for all Church members thereafter.

That's interesting, but doesn't mention beer or that eating meat should be done regularly.

I disagree that sparingly needs to be defined because the standard now is to have meat with every meal. That's not sparingly. If I said, "Eat ice cream sparingly" and you had a bowl with every meal, that's not sparingly.

So eating meat sparingly, using the common sense rule, would mean the same thing as eating ice cream sparingly.

Now if we weren't doing it for every meal, or even 2 meals a day, then sparingly might get a little more open for question. Is eating it once a day sparingly? Maybe.

But certainly if the Prophet says "Eat ice cream sparingly" and yet wards never serve a meal without ice cream, then there's a discrepancy there.

[Justice]

I disagree that sparingly needs to be defined because the standard now is to have meat with every meal.

Who's standard?

Today for lunch I had a garden salad and a baked potato... a common lunch and favorite of mine. Last night my son made us some awesome avacado sandwiches (yummmm).

I also eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches (peanut butter is a food group!).

My wife loves a good steak, not so much me. Our family has lots of fruits and veggies when we have steak (grilled well done of course) and we split 2 small steaks between the 4 of us (about 4-5 oz. each).

We eat meat, but our standard is not to each much when we do, and only a couple times a week.

I don't drink beer.

[pam]

I have to agree Justice. Meat with every meal isn't a standard of mine as well. We do pastas, casseroles, sandwiches, salads. With the price of meat these days, I'm learning to do other things that don't require it.

[Cydonia]

Excellent. You're both ahead of the curve.

But what about at every ward meal then, as said later in that post. That is not "sparingly" by any common sense definition. Any more than having ice cream (whether one scoop or two) at every ward is sparingly if the Prophet said "Eat ice cream sparingly."

Edited November 4, 2009 by Cydonia

[Misshalfway]

That's interesting, but doesn't mention beer or that eating meat should be done regularly.

I disagree that sparingly needs to be defined because the standard now is to have meat with every meal. That's not sparingly. If I said, "Eat ice cream sparingly" and you had a bowl with every meal, that's not sparingly.

So eating meat sparingly, using the common sense rule, would mean the same thing as eating ice cream sparingly.

Now if we weren't doing it for every meal, or even 2 meals a day, then sparingly might get a little more open for question. Is eating it once a day sparingly? Maybe.

But certainly if the Prophet says "Eat ice cream sparingly" and yet wards never serve a meal without ice cream, then there's a discrepancy there.

It seems to me Cydonia, that there are parts of the Wof W that are connected to our worthiness. The rest is a personal matter between us and God. Those parts are not connected to our access to the temple or baptism etc. That doesn't mean we still aren't admonished to follow.

But I would think that if someone is using food inappropriately it could, if the spirit directed, effect someone's worthiness. Food addictions and eating disorders do as much to offend the spirit as any substance addiction.

[pam]

That's interesting, but doesn't mention beer or that eating meat should be done regularly.

I think you are picking and choosing the answers you want. In an earlier post I addressed this by quoting one of our General Authorities who said:

Members write in asking if this thing or that is against the Word of Wisdom. It’s well known that tea, coffee, liquor, and tobacco are against it. It has not been spelled out in more detail. Rather, we teach the principle together with the promised blessings. There are many habit-forming, addictive things that one can drink or chew or inhale or inject which injure both body and spirit which are not mentioned in the revelation.

Everything harmful is not specifically listed; arsenic, for instance—certainly bad, but not habit-forming! He who must be commanded in all things, the Lord said, “is a slothful and not a wise servant” (D&C 58:26).

This was a talk by Boyd K. Packer.

[Cydonia]

Pam. I was at a Catholic wedding once and went up to the bar (this was before I was LDS).

I said, "I need some liquor." The bartender (honest to God) replied "We don't have any liquor."

I pointed to the beer and corrected myself, "I'll have a beer."

(That is a really, honestly, true story.)

I feel like most everyone else is picking and choosing answers instead of what D&C 89 says.

[mrmarklin]

Now I'm confused..so what is meat then? Isn't it the flesh of beasts?

What nit pickers!

Meat IS the flesh of beasts. In many languages it is the same word!

ie in Spanish Carne=meat=flesh

German: Fleisch=meat=flesh

[MarginOfError]

Excellent. You're both ahead of the curve.

But what about at every ward meal then, as said later in that post. That is not "sparingly" by any common sense definition. Any more than having ice cream (whether one scoop or two) at every ward is sparingly if the Prophet said "Eat ice cream sparingly."

How often is your ward having meals? My ward has a meal about once a quarter. That's a fairly small sample size to make such a statement isn't it?

[Cydonia]

Just to follow that up. Just looked up liquor. It says "distilled spirits."

As MarginofError pointed out "Beer is not a distilled spirit."

[pam]

What nit pickers!

Meat IS the flesh of beasts. In many languages it is the same word!

ie in Spanish Carne=meat=flesh

German: Fleisch=meat=flesh

Excuse me. I wasn't nitpicking. I was responding to an earlier statement.

[mrmarklin]

Excellent. You're both ahead of the curve.

But what about at every ward meal then, as said later in that post. That is not "sparingly" by any common sense definition. Any more than having ice cream (whether one scoop or two) at every ward is sparingly if the Prophet said "Eat ice cream sparingly."

It's safe to say the average US Mormon that I know (and I know a lot) does not eat meat sparingly.

Technically, I don't think they are obeying the WoW, but of course I suppose everyone has one's own definition of "sparingly" so who am I to judge?

[Guest xforeverxmetalx]

I feel like most everyone else is picking and choosing answers instead of what D&C 89 says.

it seems more like you regard your interpretation [in the sense of what a "mild" drink is] of D&C 89 as the only reliable source as to what we should and shouldn't put into our bodies...

ie in Spanish Carne=meat=flesh

German: Fleisch=meat=flesh

Fleisch is definitely one of my favorite German words. just saying.

[mrmarklin]

Excuse me. I wasn't nitpicking. I was responding to an earlier statement.

Pam I wasn't saying you were doing the nitpicking! It's that other guy!!!!

[pam]

Ohhh then my apologies. I took it wrong. Thanks..I feel better now. lol

[Misshalfway]

Pam. I was at a Catholic wedding once and went up to the bar (this was before I was LDS).

I said, "I need some liquor." The bartender (honest to God) replied "We don't have any liquor."

I pointed to the beer and corrected myself, "I'll have a beer."

(That is a really, honestly, true story.)

I feel like most everyone else is picking and choosing answers instead of what D&C 89 says.

Can beer not make one drunk?

It seems to me that any substance, be it drink or drug that compromises ones agency is what we are talking about here.

Fermented vs. distilled! I can't believe we are hagling over such ridulousness.

Cydonia. Read the WofW however you want. Disregard the words of the prophets if you will. But I don't think you are going to win any of these discussions during a temple recommend interview.

[Vort]

Cydonia. Read the WofW however you want. Disregard the words of the prophets if you will. But I don't think you are going to win any of these discussions during a temple recommend interview.

^^This.

[MarginOfError]

Just to follow that up. Just looked up liquor. It says "distilled spirits."

As MarginofError pointed out "Beer is not a distilled spirit."

I also pointed you to a reference in which the First Presidency stated that all members of the church should "give up drink." That same reference made reference to more than half a century of statements by President Grant against drink and liquor. If you can read these statements and still rationalize to yourself that he was not including beer, then you are seriously misleading yourself. Yet you continue to defend beer?Back to the earlier post

You might also consider this statement by Dallin H. Oaks that clarifies that one beer is one too many.

2. Satan also seeks to deceive us about right and wrong and persuade us that there is no such thing as sin. This detour typically starts off with what seems to be only a small departure: “Just try it once. One beer or one cigarette or one porno movie won’t hurt.” What all of these departures have in common is that each of them is addictive. Addiction is a condition in which we surrender part of our power of choice. When we do that we give the devil power over us. The prophet Nephi described where this leads: the devil says, “There is no hell,” and, “I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance” (2 Ne. 28:22). LDS.org - Ensign Article - Be Not Deceived

[Cydonia]

Cydonia. Read the WofW however you want. Disregard the words of the prophets if you will. But I don't think you are going to win any of these discussions during a temple recommend interview.

Why would I need to have this discussion during a temple recommend interview?

I don't drink beer.

I'm trying to not ignore the words of the Prophet. The word of God (D&C 89) says beer is OK and meat should be eaten sparingly. But we don't follow that.

Later prophets have said varying things about meat and "liquor" or "drink", but none have presented those statements as revelations. And liquor/hard drinks are different than beer.

So why do we have meat at every ward meal when meat is to be eaten sparingly?

Why is drinking one beer in a two year time period worse than having meat for every meal all 730 days in those two years?

That's not what the D&C says. I want to follow what God says. Why don't most others?

Edited November 5, 2009 by Cydonia