Has Good and Evil always existed

[Avrham]

Has GoodvsEvil predated the creation of spirits and that God did not create Evil it has always been in existance just wondering is dualism against the gospel (that God created everything)just had a interesting chat it seems that conclusion was that GoodvsEvil seems to pre-date everything just some interesting ideas:):)

ps if this has already been discussed ive been awaya while

[talisyn]

WB!

Well, one could say evil is going against the natural order of things. After all, God created a universe bound by laws, so going against these laws would be going against what is right. Also, thinking of God once being what we are now implies a whole chain of creations and laws, and I'd be willing to guess there was always opposition (for whatever reason) to that. I don't think it's a chicken and egg thing though. I believe good has been in existence far longer than evil. Just look at the Garden of Eden, there's no telling how long Adam and Eve lived before the Fall.

[Justice]

I believe evil has always existed. But, I don't believe it pre-dates when God created spirits. I believe God(s) has always created spirits. Both things are eternal so one cannot pre-date the other.

[tubaloth]

Like what talisyn said. As long as there is Laws then there are two sides. One follows the Law one doesn't. Going against the law is really what Evil is.

We know there are laws that God is in harmony with. I don't know if I would say it pre-dates, but co exists maybe.

There is the story of Einstein putting a teaching in his place. But the story isn't true, but the idea is.

The university professor challenged his students with this question. Did God create everything that exists?

A student bravely replied yes, he did!"

"God created everything?" The professor asked.

"Yes, sir," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil."

The student became quiet before such an answer.

The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?" "Of course", replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody and every object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have too little heat.

The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does".

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. "These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

[ozzy]

I believe that good and evil must coexist at all times. If there is no good, then there can't really be evil because evil is a measure of the lack of good. But there can't be a lack of good if there isn't an existence of good. It works the other way as well.

[RanMan]

I would suggest that good and evil have existed for as long as free will has been around. The question then becomes, has there ever been a time when free will did not exist, or that we as intelligences have not existed?

:)

[Moksha]

In the beginning was the word. No evil then.

[RanMan]

In the beginning was the word. No evil then.

Does that verse actually address the existence or non-existence of evil?

:)

[Justice]

In the beginning was the word. No evil then.

It doesn't say "In the beginning was ONLY the Word." I think many people interpret it the way you have, though.

[Hemidakota]

Does that verse actually address the existence or non-existence of evil?

:)

Unless we are the lone creation in this physical universe but that is not the case.

[OneEternalSonata]

If evil stems from breaking the law... then the law existed first. According to that logic, good has existed longer than evil.

[mrmarklin]

tubaloth,

This is an interesting story, and it was quoted at me by a "born again" evangelical several years ago in another forum. It's interesting, but rests on a couple of false premises that are widely accepted by many in the Christian world.

One is that God created everything. We know that this is not so nor can it be so because intelligence has alway existed. Therefore, the student's answer to the original question posed was incorrect, and of course it was then easy to fall into a verbal trap.

Then of course the student compounded his error by describing evil as the mere absence of God. Again, as Christians we know this is not so because satan is the active purveyor of evil. He rebelled against the plans of God, and it has been so from the beginning. If there is an absence of God, satan will want to fill that vacuum, but WE are the ones that create God's absence by disobeying His commandments, thereby experiencing spiritual death and inviting satan into our realm.

[Moksha]

Unless we are the lone creation in this physical universe but that is not the case.

Is this in reference to some speculation that one or more species of cosmic beings inhabited the Universe prior to the arrival of our God?

[Justice]

If evil stems from breaking the law... then the law existed first. According to that logic, good has existed longer than evil.

I know it's a hard concept to grasp, but neither was first because both have always existed.

Our minds are so dependant on beginning and ends that it is very difficult for us to understand "forever." But, forever is exactly what it is. There was not an ultimate beginning, just a beginning of each eternal round.

If there was ever a time when there was nothing there would still be nothing.

[RanMan]

I know it's a hard concept to grasp, but neither was first because both have always existed.

Our minds are so dependant on beginning and ends that it is very difficult for us to understand "forever." But, forever is exactly what it is. There was not an ultimate beginning, just a beginning of each eternal round.

If there was ever a time when there was nothing there would still be nothing.

Possibly, but as I understand it, one definition for eternal, or forever, is without end. I think there could have been a beginning. Then again, it could be as you say, that our minds have a hard time with there not being a beginning even though that might be the case here.

Either way, it may be fun to speculate on the topic, but I don't think it is important for us to understand the nature of the universe. (Not that anyone is suggesting that we have to understand the many concepts that are currently beyond our ability to comprehend. It's just fun to discuss.)

:)

[Traveler]

One of the great flaws in creating discussions based on rhetorical logic is not understanding the definitions (having agreement) of terms. I submit the problem with this thread is a common understanding of “exist”. What I often see in such discussions is a constant movement of definitions to suit one’s point of view rather than describe one’s point of view based on definitions.

In order for something to exist what is necessary? What are the laws of existence?

It would seem to me if we are going to debate existence based on empirical logic then in order for something to exist within our empirical universe – it must meet empirical requirements. This brings about a lot of questions. For example if something exist outside of our universe – can we say it exist as far as our universe is concerned? The other point here if something exist outside of our universe what is the point of concern since we exist within our universe. This gets logic into knots – because something can only exist in our universe if there is something of whatever we question that has permeate intersection within our empirical universe.

Therefore, if we say G-d created our universe – it does not matter if it was from something or nothing. If good can only exist as a dipole with evil then it does not matter. Creating good will also create evil. This is a very ancient concept of balance. Thus if there is a G-d that is good there must be an opposite or a G-d of evil. This is an interesting problem for Western thinkers because many do not understand the principle of existence but rather tend to make things up as they go.

So here is a thought – G-d is the creator or the separator of good from evil; which BTW was the ancient meaning of salvation - the separating of good from evil. Since most Christians believe that to live and be in heaven is good then in order for that to “exist” there has to be a place to separate off the evil. Thus if there is a G-d that “exist” of that which is good there then there must be a G-d that “exist” of that which is evil. Is that not the theme of the scriptures that good and evil will be separated for eternity (forever)?

The Traveler