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Is that your entire argument for not believing Adam and Eve were born?

Did you read Genesis 2?

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

It doesn't make any difference who wrote it. The fact is Moses was speaking about what Adam knew and about what Adam said.

Truth is, Adam knew a lot because he walked with God and he continued to be in touch with God after the fall. He knew of the full plan of salvation, and knew the requirement for making it to the highest level in the celestial kingdom. I don't think you have to assume that he witnessed anything in person to know that.

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Submitted for you concideration.

Joseph F Smith Deseret Evening News Dec 17 1913

The Son, Jesus Christ, grew and developed into manhood the same as you or I , as likewise did God his Father grow and develoop into the Supreme Being that he now is. Man was born of womana; Christ , the Saviour , was bore of woman, and God, the Father, was born of woman. Adam, our earthly parent , was also born of woman into this world, the same as Jesus and you and I.

Brigham Young Jounal of Disores.

Here let me state to all philosophers of every class upon the earth, When you tell me the Father Adam was made as we make adobes from the earth, you tell me what I deem an Idle tale. When you tell me that the beast of the field were produced in that manner, you are speaking idle words devoid of meaning. There is no such thing in all the eternities where God dwells.

Mankind are her because they are the offspring of parents who were brought here from another planet and power was given them to propagate their species, and they were commanded to mulitply and replenish the earth. The offspring of Adam and Eve are commanded to take the rude elements, and , by the knowledge God has given , to convert them into everything required.`1

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Of course not. I was just saying that because you don't know how much is commentary by Moses, related to his earthly experience when he says "Therefore shall a man [or woman] leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: [or husband] and they shall be one flesh."

Again, it really doesn't matter if it was commentary by Moses, or an actual quote from Adam. The scriptures attribute the thought or learning to Adam. Since Moses wasn't there he needed revelation in order to know what happened between God and Adam.

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Truth is, Adam knew a lot because he walked with God and he continued to be in touch with God after the fall. He knew of the full plan of salvation, and knew the requirement for making it to the highest level in the celestial kingdom. I don't think you have to assume that he witnessed anything in person to know that.

I don't believe I'm assuming, to me it's right there in the text. I think to believe differently you have to ignore the text in favor of an interpretation that has been passed down.

I think oftentimes we use traditional beliefs to interpret the scriptures. I discovered many years ago that I certainly do. Over the last many years I have been trying to break out of that habit. My eyes have been opened to a great many things in the scriptures as I study and question my understanding of them.

I have learned some amazing things about the creation, fall, and atonement as I have concentrated my studies on those 3 things over the past several years. I sincerely believe the reason I didn't learn these truths earlier in my life is because I closed my mind to them in favor of what I could understand, or to what made sense at the time. It's hard to explain. But, that's the best I can do.

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Submitted for you concideration.

Joseph F Smith Deseret Evening News Dec 17 1913

The Son, Jesus Christ, grew and developed into manhood the same as you or I , as likewise did God his Father grow and develoop into the Supreme Being that he now is. Man was born of womana; Christ , the Saviour , was bore of woman, and God, the Father, was born of woman. Adam, our earthly parent , was also born of woman into this world, the same as Jesus and you and I.

Brigham Young Jounal of Disores.

Here let me state to all philosophers of every class upon the earth, When you tell me the Father Adam was made as we make adobes from the earth, you tell me what I deem an Idle tale. When you tell me that the beast of the field were produced in that manner, you are speaking idle words devoid of meaning. There is no such thing in all the eternities where God dwells.

Mankind are her because they are the offspring of parents who were brought here from another planet and power was given them to propagate their species, and they were commanded to mulitply and replenish the earth. The offspring of Adam and Eve are commanded to take the rude elements, and , by the knowledge God has given , to convert them into everything required.`1

Can you tell me where I can find that newspaper article you quoted. I can't seem to find it even on the Deseret News Archive web site.

The Brigham Young statement just says they were taken before the elements were put together, so that could refer to being born spiritually. There is nothing there to suggest their physical bodies were born as babies and not created in the image of God in the adult form, in fact Brigham's description almost sounds like he was saying they were brought after they had developed.

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I have asked a question – Where in scripture does it talk about the creation of Adam separate from “man”?

What are we to understand about this discussion? Are we not really in the image and likeness of G-d if we have a bellybutton?

Since I believe I am in the image and likeness of G-d – I observe that I have a bellybutton. Therefore, I accept the notion that G-d also has a bellybutton and so does Adam. Is there scripture to refute this notion of mine? Please provide this in scripture or wherever and let’s discuss it.

The Traveler

You can also observe the color of your blood flowing but we know God doesn't have blood. There are many modifications and changes to our current body that will take place to make it a perfected glorified body. As Adams body was made to fit in a paradisiacal state I see that body more similar to God's body than comparing our current fallen state (or Adam's fallen state) to God's image. How about Phil 3:18-21. We look at heaven for our example of perfection and not let God be our own belly, as stated in that scripture. We have no innate ability to overcome this vile state by ourselves, our body cannot do that.

Bruce R. McConkie said: "This first temporal creation of all things, as we shall see, was paradisiacal in nature. In the primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state than now prevails. The coming fall would take them downward and forward and onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world."

He said the first temporal creation was paradisiacal in nature, I can see our current bodies are not. I think it is easier to believe the pre-fall Adams body was different, without procreation. And a bellybutton is part of procreation. I don't know, these are just things that make me lean in that direction. I am open also for discussion, everyone thus far who has tried to explain it differently just say its because they studied it and came to that conclusion or that they look around and understand procreation and thus it was the same for Adam and Eve's paradisiacal body. When I see the writings of GA's that say we don't know and it will be revealed when Jesus returns then I tend to think creation of the beginning of human kind can't be as simple as exactly as procreation is done now. I am keeping an open mind about it, including keeping my mind open to the possibility it is nothing like we know procreation to be.

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Again, it really doesn't matter if it was commentary by Moses, or an actual quote from Adam. The scriptures attribute the thought or learning to Adam. Since Moses wasn't there he needed revelation in order to know what happened between God and Adam.

I am not trying to argue against your beliefs, I am trying to understand how you arrived at your conclusions. You asked, How would Adam know of a 'mother'? And I answered Adam didn't write Genesis. And I explained that Adam walked with God and knew of the whole plan and the importance of a man or woman to leave his or her parents in the future and to cling to his/her spouse from all that discussion with God. I still don't see anything that says Adam was reared as a 'baby' into a man in the scriptures. If it is true, great, it wouldn't change any ounce of my testimony of the gospel, I am just trying to understand the thought process that leads to that conclusion. Especially, to the strength of your conviction about the whole thing .... I think most would say, simply 'we don't know for sure'.

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I still don't see anything that says Adam was reared as a 'baby' into a man in the scriptures. If it is true, great, it wouldn't change any ounce of my testimony of the gospel, I am just trying to understand the thought process that leads to that conclusion. Especially, to the strength of your conviction about the whole thing .... I think most would say, simply 'we don't know for sure'.

It's not in the scriptures, but can be conjectured based on teachings from Latter-day prophets and apostles.

Your conclusion that Adam and Eve started out as adults is based only on traditional opinion and interpretation. If you can support that belief with quotes from modern revelation, I would be more inclined to believe it. Yeah, we don't know for sure, but baby Adam and baby Eve creates a stronger case for the necessity of two genders. If women aren't needed in the Creation, why couldn't God find a way to do without them in mortality?

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It's not in the scriptures, but can be conjectured based on teachings from Latter-day prophets and apostles.

Your conclusion that Adam and Eve started out as adults is based only on traditional opinion and interpretation. If you can support that belief with quotes from modern revelation, I would be more inclined to believe it. Yeah, we don't know for sure, but baby Adam and baby Eve creates a stronger case for the necessity of two genders. If women aren't needed in the Creation, why couldn't God find a way to do without them in mortality?

I am a woman, so I am all in favor of supporting women in the grand scheme of things! :)

I don't understand the last question there. There are many things that are different in mortality than in a paradisiacal state. I happen to believe women are needed in the creation of spirits and that is why our experience is needed here. The creation of a temporary body that was made to fall, I don't see that as requiring male and female, more than I see regenerating heart tissue from a stem cell requiring male and female direct inputs. And especially a perfect Male and Female body generating a body that would be allowed to fall. Joseph F. Smith also described the process as a transplant from another world. Well, to me that could also mean taking some of the tissue, or even the genetic code and using the available elements here making a body to start the whole process here. In essence it comes from some previous mother and father as it had to at some point. But knowing the full code for a perfect body, the components can be put together with enough knowledge to 'create' a body, breathing life into it with the spirit that was made by a Heavenly mother and father. Do you think God needed two genders for every animal on the earth? I don't think we know all those details. Just like explaining in vitro fertilization to a scientist 1000 years ago would have sounded impossible to that scientist.

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I am a woman, so I am all in favor of supporting women in the grand scheme of things! :)

I don't understand the last question there. There are many things that are different in mortality than in a paradisiacal state. I happen to believe women are needed in the creation of spirits and that is why our experience is needed here.

This is where I see a flaw in your logic. I am also a woman and if we are needed for one part of the creation status, but not both, why not just leave the females as Spirits? Wouldn't this logic lead to the confirmation that we are the lesser sex, a less important part of the eternal process? Sorry, but I completely rebel at such a thought.

I think, but am only guessing, your primary argument against it is because you would then have to imagine that the way we reproduce on this Earth is similar to the way Gods reproduce--and that this is too irreverent to conceive. I am also uncomfortable with that idea. But what if human sexuality is just a pitiful and lower form--yet with some likeness to--the way celestial beings have eternal increase. Perhaps that is why Satan is so eager to twist and turn the creation process into something evil and vile. If we find it reprehensible, except to endure as a way to bring children into our families, then Satan succeeds in prejudicing our minds. Sex becomes something bestial and the flesh is perceived as something weak and unrighteous. In its most common form on this Earth, I would agree. Therefore, I believe there must be something different--but Heavenly Father working in a medical lab--is weak logic if LDS doctrine on the essential role of two genders is to be believed.

"All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." (Para. 2, The Family: A Proclamation to the World).

I don't know how our Heavenly Father created Adam and Eve, but I cannot imagine that his relationship with his wife is unbalanced and therefore, I think there is more to the creation process than we understand. LDS doctrine teaches that our Heavenly parents have physical bodies, yet you suggest that they no longer use them to create human life. Then what is the reason for them? If not the power of procreation, what power do they give us that Spirits do not already have?

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But what if human sexuality is just a pitiful and lower form--yet with some likeness to--the way celestial beings have eternal increase.

I generally stay away from the "God and sex" threads, since I see little good that ever comes from them. But I confess I have never understood why human sexuality is so often viewed contemptuously, as "a pitiful and lower form". At best, this is like claiming that human language is "just a pitiful and lower form" of the way God speaks. Perhaps this is true in a very literal sense, but I don't view the divine gift of language as a fallen, debased, ugly thing, even if many of its users make it so.

(To be clear, I am not pointing fingers at anyone, least of all Ammonite. Rather, I am using her post as a springboard for discussion.)

Are we not taught that the procreative power is of God, and that the exercise of that power is among the most sublime experiences available to us in mortality? Sure, I can see why the world thinks of sex as degraded. For them, it is. It's all fornication and self-pleasuring and pornographic movies. They refer to sex as "doing the nasty". They truly revel in the idea of perverting sex to a degraded thing. So of course they (that is, those of the world) will think of sex as nasty, ugly, and degraded. That's how they like it.

But we are of the covenant. We have received divine guidance. We have, or should have, a clearer vision of the true nature of things. I can think of no excuse we could provide to justify thinking of sex as anything less than a wonderful, even miraculous, gift from God to his married children. Why would any Saint even suggest that the sexual union of a married couple was somehow pitiful or debased, or that sexual congress between a husband and wife was anything less than a taste of the celestial glory?

My guess is that there would be a whole lot more joy and a whole lot less heartache among the Saints if they (including, perhaps especially, the sisters) would quit viewing sex through the worldly, evil lens of "doing the nasty" and start viewing it as God intended.

(Disclosure: In this, I don't speak from personal experience. My wife does not share the attitude of sex as bestial perversion, thank heavens. But my conversations with and observations of the Saints suggest a much different reality for most members.)

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(Adam) came to this world in a resurrected body..

I've yet to find it, but I've read commentary on this before. It has been stated clearly that this is the opinion of the speaker, and other prophets and apostles disagreed strongly.

If Adam could have fallen with a resurrected body, then why didn't Heavenly Father just fall again, Himself, and atone for the sins of world without sending His Son? The general censesus from what I have read is that Heavenly Father couldn't be born mortal or fall because He had a glorified, resurrected body, and one who had not received such a body had to fall, and also the one who atoned had to be able to shed blood and die.

I think this theory is one of "what fits some of the revealed facts," and not one of known truth.

I, of course, as you suspect, have a different theory that fits with the fact that Heavenly Father could not fall or atone since He had a glorified and perfected body.

It has to do with this scripture:

Abraham 3:

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

There are lots of truths to be gained from this scripture, but they may not be the obvious statements it appears to make. If you study this verse long and hard, some obvious questions arise.

Edited by Justice
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This is where I see a flaw in your logic. I am also a woman and if we are needed for one part of the creation status, but not both, why not just leave the females as Spirits? Wouldn't this logic lead to the confirmation that we are the lesser sex, a less important part of the eternal process? Sorry, but I completely rebel at such a thought.

I think, but am only guessing, your primary argument against it is because you would then have to imagine that the way we reproduce on this Earth is similar to the way Gods reproduce--and that this is too irreverent to conceive. I am also uncomfortable with that idea. But what if human sexuality is just a pitiful and lower form--yet with some likeness to--the way celestial beings have eternal increase. Perhaps that is why Satan is so eager to twist and turn the creation process into something evil and vile. If we find it reprehensible, except to endure as a way to bring children into our families, then Satan succeeds in prejudicing our minds. Sex becomes something bestial and the flesh is perceived as something weak and unrighteous. In its most common form on this Earth, I would agree. Therefore, I believe there must be something different--but Heavenly Father working in a medical lab--is weak logic if LDS doctrine on the essential role of two genders is to be believed.

I believe one has to be in the highest level of the celestial kingdom to have the opportunity to participate in eternal increase, which means having to come to earth to get a body, and participate in the gospel and all of the ordinances etc. That does not cut women out from obtaining a body here. In fact it necessitates receiving a body, to prepare for the possibility of having spiritual children in the future. I never said a woman is not needed in that process, just that I don't see the procreation process needed in that step necessarily any more than I see our procreation abilities needed in creating a plant or fish or bird. This body we have now will return to where it came, to dust. This existence is a very small fraction of all eternity, it wouldn't bother me at all if a woman's reproductive ability is not used in the original formation of this temporal existence. For the spirit yes or for the exalted body, never to be separated from the spirit maybe. But this corrupted, dust to dust body, it doesn't bother me one bit. There is nothing illogical about that.

I guess it comes down to if one believes the pre-fall Adam and Eve couldn't procreate because they were commanded not to, or because they didn't know how or because they didn't have the parts for it. Because whatever the way it was done for Adam and Eve it was probably similar for all the animals. If one thinks it is because their bodies had to change to be able to procreate (which would also help explain why they suddenly were embarrassed by their nakedness among other things) then you would have to ask, How could a being procreate another being that couldn't in turn procreate? Unless it was a flawed version, which I don't believe is the case. Or unless it was just created with modifications for that purpose, to exist in a paradisiacal state without death or procreation. Maybe it was the tree of life that made them sterile?

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I've yet to find it, but I've read commentary on this before. It has been stated clearly that this is the opinion of the speaker, and other prophets and apostles disagreed strongly.

If Adam could have fallen with a resurrected body, then why didn't Heavenly Father just fall again, Himself, and atone for the sins of world without sending His Son? The general censesus from what I have read is that Heavenly Father couldn't be born mortal or fall because He had a glorified, resurrected body, and one who had not received such a body had to fall, and also the one who atoned had to be able to shed blood and die.

I think this theory is one of "what fits some of the revealed facts," and not one of known truth.

I, of course, as you suspect, have a different theory that fits with the fact that Heavenly Father could not fall or atone since He had a glorified and perfected body.

It has to do with this scripture:

Abraham 3:

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

There are lots of truths to be gained from this scripture, but they may not be the obvious statements it appears to make. If you study this verse long and hard, some obvious questions arise.

You say this, that a glorified being could not fall again. Well, with that same logic, how could two glorified beings bodies that are glorified procreate a non-glorified body in which a (relatively) young spirit is placed? If you believe they procreate spirits, then there are two procreation processes? one for the spirit, one for the body? Or are you saying the mother in this case is not Heavenly?

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I guess it comes down to if one believes the pre-fall Adam and Eve couldn't procreate because they were commanded not to, or because they didn't know how or because they didn't have the parts for it.

They gained the knowledge by partaking of the fruit. That's not to say the knowledge was in the fruit, because I don't know. It may have been in becoming mortal, which was caused by eating the fruit. But, it is clear they did not have the knowledge, or even recognize the differences in the sexes, when they were in their innocent state. When they hid from God because they were ashamed, and recognized their nakedness, they then had whatever they needed to procreate, even if they didn't fully know how to at the time.

God created their bodies in a perfect state, which, to me, means they had the ability to procreate, they just lacked the knowledge. Much like a young child is innocent and does not understand procreation. as a young child gains this knowledge they, to, become ashamed.

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You say this, that a glorified being could not fall again. Well, with that same logic, how could two glorified beings bodies that are glorified procreate a non-glorified body in which a (relatively) young spirit is placed? If you believe they procreate spirits, then there are two procreation processes? one for the spirit, one for the body? Or are you saying the mother in this case is not Heavenly?

My answer is I don't know.

Our spirits existed before we were born here. So, there must be a procreation process for the spirit that is different than that of the body. How similar the processes are is beyond me.

I wish more was written about how God places a spirit into a body.

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They gained the knowledge by partaking of the fruit. That's not to say the knowledge was in the fruit, because I don't know. It may have been in becoming mortal, which was caused by eating the fruit. But, it is clear they did not have the knowledge, or even recognize the differences in the sexes, when they were in their innocent state. When they hid from God because they were ashamed, and recognized their nakedness, they then had whatever they needed to procreate, even if they didn't fully know how to at the time.

God created their bodies in a perfect state, which, to me, means they had the ability to procreate, they just lacked the knowledge. Much like a young child is innocent and does not understand procreation. as a young child gains this knowledge they, to, become ashamed.

Why is it clear they did not have the knowledge? What did Adam talk about with God all day long?

God created their bodies in a paradisiacal state with the ability to fall which isn't the same thing as a glorified body, at least that's what I think.

Russell M. Nelson said, "The creation of Adam and Eve was a paradisiacal creation, one that required a significant change before they could fulfill the commandment to have children and thus provide earthly bodies for premortal spirit sons and daughters of God." (I added the underline) Ensign 1996

To me that says pretty clearly they couldn't physically have children, but maybe I am reading too much into that?

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You are right about the glorified, perfected body. Adam did not have one and therefore could fall.

This could turn into a long discussion, which more than likely will end no where.

There are so many things that point to them simply not having the knowledge. I see no evidence that supports the supposition that they physically were unable to have children. The first reason is that God created them perfect.

I think the quote is saying they "needed" to fall in order to have mortal children, because had the change not come over their bodies their children would have been immortal, unable to die physically. The big deal about the change is they had to become (and stay) mortal before they had children in order for God's plan to work (Alma 12 and 42).

Man had to become mortal in order to have time to multiply and replenish the earth, or to keep the first commandment. It's tricky to understand, much less try to explain. But, that mankind needed to be mortal, or go through spiritual and physical death, is taught plainly in the scriptures. Time is very different when looking at it through immortal eyes. To someone who has never experienced mortality, or time, I wonder if it's even possible to understand fully? (Much like us trying to undertstand eternity) So, Adam and Eve, being immortal (never mortal) did not fully understand the consequence of "death." Thus, making their act a trangression, not a sin.

Alma 12:

24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

Also, what exactly did Adam and Eve learn when they fell through transgression?

Moses 5:

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

At first reading this statement seems pretty generic. But, when you pick it apart and break it down, it becomes quite profound.

They had 3 different kinds of seed, all gained through the fall. All 3 seeds were types of the others.

1. Seed = food to eat to feed them physically (till the earth)

2. Seed = word of God to feed them spiritually (Christ)

3. Seed = offspring (which would require both 1 and 2 to raise them properly)

I believe all 3 are tied to the knowledge they gained by partaking of the forbidden fruit. All 3 were knowledge that needed to be gained. God taught them by teaching them how seeds work when you plant them (seeds are male and earth is female). This physical teaching also taught them the other 2 things they had to learn (about "seed"). It also taught them that they were the offspring of God, since He made them "from the dust of the earth."

Don't want to get any deeper into it. I just condensed about 20 years of study into 5 minutes. I don't expect anyone to follow, there is so much missing, and so many gaps. But, I just wanted to show you where I was going.

Edited by Justice
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But I confess I have never understood why human sexuality is so often viewed contemptuously, as "a pitiful and lower form". At best, this is like claiming that human language is "just a pitiful and lower form" of the way God speaks. Perhaps this is true in a very literal sense, but I don't view the divine gift of language as a fallen, debased, ugly thing, even if many of its users make it so.

Just to clarify, I don't think that sex is evil and I agree with your entire post. I was trying to suggest in my insufficient way, that whatever God's ways are, they probably aren't identical to our ways. I didn't mean pitiful and lowly as strongly as it was interpreted but more like my 3 year-old's crude crayon drawings compared to a Master's oil paintings. I still beam with love when I look at my son's humble drawings and I imagine our Father does the same when he looks upon our best efforts at building strong, tender, and righteous relationships with our spouses. Nevertheless, the techniques that our Father employs to create art must be inconceivably greater than our own. My hope is to eventually learn how to color inside the lines. ^_^

Plato does a better job describing the differences in the degrees of light and knowledge in his Allegory of the Cave.

Edited by Ammonite
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This body we have now will return to where it came, to dust. This existence is a very small fraction of all eternity, it wouldn't bother me at all if a woman's reproductive ability is not used in the original formation of this temporal existence. For the spirit yes or for the exalted body, never to be separated from the spirit maybe. But this corrupted, dust to dust body, it doesn't bother me one bit. There is nothing illogical about that.

Perhaps some of my reasons for disagreeing with you is because we may be misunderstanding each other on the issues you bring up here. Maybe we have different ideas of what an exalted body is? I don't think it is going to be identical to what we have now. I think we are going to get new bodies--otherwise anyone who has completely decomposed, been digested or burned to the micro-level might be in trouble. Not that anything is too hard for God but once bodies fully decompose, they become part of the earth and can be ingested or absorbed by other forms of life, effectively becoming part of another living thing.

On this we appear to agree, but please correct me if needed. The fact that Christ's disciples on the road to Emmaus didn't recognize him may be evidence of the new bodies hypothesis. Nevertheless, I think our exalted bodies will be patterned after the mortal type.

Where I see that we may diverge in our thoughts is on our ideas of what powers exalted bodies have, why we wanted them, and how (highest kingdom) celestial beings are going to use them. I agree that childbirth would not be the same as for mortal women, because exalted bodies feel no pain, do not bleed, etc. However, complex forms of life always need something from two genders to get started. I can't quite understand how you reconcile your ideas on the Creation of Adam and Eve (God molding bodies out of mortal matter) with this fact. Do you believe that none of the laws of creation that apply on this world apply to Gods and Goddesses? If so, maybe you are correct. As for me, I think that even the mortal human body is too complex for God to create without a more intricate process than the scriptures describe.

I believe that what makes exalted bodies so powerful and desirable, is that they combine perfectly all the attributes and powers of both the mortal body and the spirit. All the enjoyable emotions, sensations, and pro-creation abilities melded with immortality and perfect intelligence. Of course, I could be completely wrong.

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You are right about the glorified, perfected body. Adam did not have one and therefore could fall.

If not, then how could either of them stand before their maker on the same ground? Noticed the before and after partaking the fruit of the Godhead postion within the garden. Any being, whether it is Celestial to Telestial has the agency to fall, even GOD HIMSELF at any point. Self-existence is the key here Justice.

There are so many things that point to them simply not having the knowledge. I see no evidence that supports the supposition that they physically were unable to have children. The first reason is that God created them perfect.

D&C 93 is a good case for this statement on how to receive the fullness of GOD.

Also, what exactly did Adam and Eve learn when they fell through transgression?

Moses 5:

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

At first reading this statement seems pretty generic. But, when you pick it apart and break it down, it becomes quite profound.

They had 3 different kinds of seed, all gained through the fall. All 3 seeds were types of the others.

1. Seed = food to eat to feed them physically (till the earth)

2. Seed = word of God to feed them spiritually (Christ)

3. Seed = offspring (which would require both 1 and 2 to raise them properly)

I believe all 3 are tied to the knowledge they gained by partaking of the forbidden fruit. All 3 were knowledge that needed to be gained. God taught them by teaching them how seeds work when you plant them (seeds are male and earth is female). This physical teaching also taught them the other 2 things they had to learn (about "seed"). It also taught them that they were the offspring of God, since He made them "from the dust of the earth."

Don't want to get any deeper into it. I just condensed about 20 years of study into 5 minutes. I don't expect anyone to follow, there is so much missing, and so many gaps. But, I just wanted to show you where I was going.

The Godhead provides instruction to not only Adam but to Eve as well I do suspect. How could Adam even talk? Or even walk? How could Adam even name the animals? How could Adam even eat to sustain an immortal life? Instructions was given but to what was given is pure speculation on our part unless we have seen it for ourselves.

The teaching of such was not done afterwards but began prior to Adam coming into the garden. It continued on through the ministering of Spirits to both of them until Adam receive the fullness where he can dwell in the midst of the Godhead in mortality. But you are right; GOD does teach us in that sphere what is understandable and applicable for our salvation. Today, it maybe different on how HE approaches HIS children when using symbolism.

Excellent posting…

Edited by Hemidakota
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