Is evil really God's fault?


RipplecutBuddha
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I know there have been several threads about this, but I just finished a thread over on myspace with someone who wanted to blame God for evil in the world. The essentials of his argument were that child abuse happens, and because it happens, either there is no God, or God would rather sit and watch it happen rather than step in and do something about it.

After several posts, and after I had already stated that it is the individual that is responsible for evil in the world, I said the following;

Let's just say, for the sake of this argument that there is no God.

God does not exist.

The existence of evil in the world is evidence that God does not exist.

So, Who's fault is it that evil is in the world?

Who do we blame now?

His answer was this;

That's simple, the individual. The individual is the cause of evil in the world.

I thought it was fascinating that when we took God out of the matter, he reached the right answer for the question.

Even more fascinating is the realization that whether there is a God or not, We are still ultimately responsible for the conditions of this life. With God, we are accountable to him for our actions. Without God, there's no one else to blame but ourselves anyway.

Thoughts/ideas?

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Your logic is good. But you must understand that in most religions it is believed that there was nothing before G-d’s creation and that G-d controls all parameters in creation. If that is the case then your friend is correct (although his logic is limited) that G-d is responsible for all that happens.

The other problem that your friend must face is that if there is no G-d then justice (good and evil) is an illusion. Since children are abused he must prove that it was wrong – which cannot be done because if child abuse existed and there is no G-d then it is only opinion that it is evil and wrong. How are we to prove anything evil and wrong? It happens and what outcome (big picture) has changed in a way we know is good or evil? How is child abuse any more wrong than a lion eating a newborn zebra?

The Traveler

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I know there have been several threads about this, but I just finished a thread over on myspace with someone who wanted to blame God for evil in the world. The essentials of his argument were that child abuse happens, and because it happens, either there is no God, or God would rather sit and watch it happen rather than step in and do something about it.

His argument is unassailable - he is absolutely 100% correct. Either the is no God as we understand Him (knowing and powerful) and therefore He cannot do anything about evil - or there is a knowing powerful God who chooses to stand by and do nothing. I am surprised you argued with him - the only choice left is that there is no evil but you don't appear to argue that.

After several posts, and after I had already stated that it is the individual that is responsible for evil in the world, I said the following;

Let's just say, for the sake of this argument that there is no God.

God does not exist.

The existence of evil in the world is evidence that God does not exist.

So, Who's fault is it that evil is in the world?

Who do we blame now?

His answer was this;

That's simple, the individual. The individual is the cause of evil in the world.

I thought it was fascinating that when we took God out of the matter, he reached the right answer for the question.

Even more fascinating is the realization that whether there is a God or not, We are still ultimately responsible for the conditions of this life. With God, we are accountable to him for our actions. Without God, there's no one else to blame but ourselves anyway.

Thoughts/ideas?

The problem of evil, theodicy, is a huge, and so far unsolved problem in non-LDS Christianity but less of a problem in Mormonism. In Mormonism God is not the author of moral evil as he is in mainstream Christianity... but even in Mormonism there are 2 huge unsolved problems - 1. God is still responsible for natural evil - floods, earthquakes, meteors, etc, and 2. Why does He stand idly by in the face of moral evil - either he can't do something about suffering, or he won't.

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The problem of evil, theodicy, is a huge, and so far unsolved problem in non-LDS Christianity but less of a problem in Mormonism. In Mormonism God is not the author of moral evil as he is in mainstream Christianity... but even in Mormonism there are 2 huge unsolved problems - 1. God is still responsible for natural evil - floods, earthquakes, meteors, etc, and 2. Why does He stand idly by in the face of moral evil - either he can't do something about suffering, or he won't.

1. Baring the ones that are attributed him in the scriptures, I've been inclined to attribute them to a fallen earth. Just as people being imperfect suffer from illness due to their nature and not do to God's direct action (I've decided that Bob will contract Ebola today), it is the same with the earth, earthquakes or what have you are the consequences of it being in a fallen state (the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory) and not God's direct action (I decided that LA will have an earthquake today).

2. Of course that above theory doesn't answers why he can't or won't do anything about it, nor does it cover those that the scriptures attribute to thim as divine punishment.

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1. Baring the ones that are attributed him in the scriptures, I've been inclined to attribute them to a fallen earth. Just as people being imperfect suffer from illness due to their nature and not do to God's direct action (I've decided that Bob will contract Ebola today), it is the same with the earth, earthquakes or what have you are the consequences of it being in a fallen state (the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory) and not God's direct action (I decided that LA will have an earthquake today).

Regardless of whether or not the earth is "fallen" God, the creator of the earth is still responsible for natural evil and not doing anything about it.

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Yes, it doesn't answer why he doesn't prevent hurricanes or earthquakes and the like, I admitted as much.

Yes.

I watch a show called Getting at the Truth - you can also watch it on the internet - where an evangelical scholar tried to describe it that it was "unintended" (that something else was intended and evil was merely an unintended consequence) and so God was not directly culpable or responsible. It sounded totally unconvincing. I've never seen any satisfying answers.

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Yes.

I watch a show called Getting at the Truth - you can also watch it on the internet - where an evangelical scholar tried to describe it that it was "unintended" (that something else was intended and evil was merely an unintended consequence) and so God was not directly culpable or responsible. It sounded totally unconvincing. I've never seen any satisfying answers.

I think attempts to use logic to prove God's benevolence using the premises provided is an uphill battle, for instance what is unintended to a being with all knowledge and all power? Surely he knew when he set objects in motion how they would behave, and further more be able to prevent them from behaving in that manner, either by nudging them in a different direction in the first place or by nudging them once they are in motion.

I rely on faith to believe that God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent (though I define that as the power to do all that is possible, not the power to do all that can be imagined), and omniscient and that there is an answer out there. Only problem is faith is a useful answer to the one who holds it but is entirely unsatisfactory logically.

Edited by Dravin
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As has been alluded to in this discussion, I believe the premise that God created evil stems from a false understanding of who God is. If, as was mentioned, you believe there was a time when God was alone, and then in a moment He brought everything into existence out of nothing, then you would have a hard time explaining how God did not create evil.

As LDS, we believe the family of man has always existed. There was never a time when man did not exist. This means both God and evil are eternal. And, as far as God doing nothing about it, I'm not sure what you want Him to do. Coming to an earth and having man partake of the knowledge of good and evil is an essential step in our exaltation. If you remove evil then you remove man's ability to choose good, because he is left with no choice... which is about where we were in our pre-earth life.

Remove evil and you remove man's choice; remove man's choice and you remove the possibility at exaltation. As the old saying goes... evil is a necessary evil.

If there was a way to exalt man without agency or evil, I'm sure it would be done.

Edited by Justice
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His argument is unassailable - he is absolutely 100% correct. Either the is no God as we understand Him (knowing and powerful) and therefore He cannot do anything about evil - or there is a knowing powerful God who chooses to stand by and do nothing. I am surprised you argued with him - the only choice left is that there is no evil but you don't appear to argue that.

This is so very uncomfortable, but true. Whether we argue for predestination or free will (agency), there is no denying that if our God is omnipotent then he chooses to allow evil to be carried out. We believe there are sound, just, "greater good" reasons for this, but we are hardpressed to explain those to people who are skeptical to begin with. Even we believers do struggle with the problem of evil.

The problem of evil, theodicy, is a huge, and so far unsolved problem in non-LDS Christianity but less of a problem in Mormonism. In Mormonism God is not the author of moral evil as he is in mainstream Christianity... but even in Mormonism there are 2 huge unsolved problems - 1. God is still responsible for natural evil - floods, earthquakes, meteors, etc, and 2. Why does He stand idly by in the face of moral evil - either he can't do something about suffering, or he won't.

Our theology drives us towards the 2nd answer...but there is no doubt--this is one of the most difficult challenges of explaining faith to skeptics. I remember growing up hearing this: If you go to India without strong faith, you will leave there either an atheist or a universalist.

Edited by prisonchaplain
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Not that long ago, I was talking with a friend, and our conversation went to a "deep" place...we were discussing being victimized as little girls through sexual abuse. It was a hard conversation, but a good one--we were both very transparent and just relating to one another was healing. At the end of the conversation, she said to me, "Just remember, as bad as it was, God was there."

As soon as she said that, I smiled and said, "That's true," and hugged her goodbye. But what was going on internally was this: I felt like I might throw up. The whole upheaval going on inside was very unexpected. I couldn't really understand my strong reaction. But when I got home, I sobbed alone in my room. I realized that her statement to me--"God was there"--was something I'd never really considered, and now, after all these years, it made me angry. He was there? HE WAS THERE? I had this picture in my mind of the abuse going on and God (formerly my BIG, ALL-POWERFUL GOD) being reduced to a skinny, slight weakling tied to a chair, helpless to come to my aid! And me, crying out, "Can't you help me? HELP ME!" I spent many days wrestling with this anger of mine, this picture in my head of a weak God.

I was struggling with these thoughts: Either God was strong enough to save me (as I was always taught) and He just chose not to, OR He was not strong enough to save. Both of these thoughts broke my heart. It seems to me that this is the question that people are asking when they say, "Why would God allow evil?"

I began to immerse myself in the Psalms and came across Psalm 18. I want to type out part of it for you and I'm using the New International Version; I hope that's okay.

Psalm 18:4-7,13-19

"I call to the Lord, who is worthy of praise, and I am saved from my enemies. The cords of death entangled me; the torrents of destruction overwhelmed me. The cords of the grave coiled around me; the snares of death confronted me. In my distress I called to the Lord; I cried to my God for help. From his temple he heard my voice; my cry came before him, into his ears. The earth trembled and quaked, and the foundations of the mountains shook; they trembled because HE WAS ANGRY."

"The Lord thundered from heaven; the voice of the Most High resounded. He shot his arrows and scattered the enemies, great bolts of lightning and routed them. The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at your rebuke, O lord, at the blast from your nostrils. He reached down from on high and took hold of me; he drew me out of deep waters. He rescued me from my powerful enemy, from my foes, who were too strong for me. They confronted me in the day of my disaster, but the Lord was my support. He brought me out into a spacious place; he rescued me because He delighted in me."

At the risk of making this post excruciating long (too late :) ), I will just say, I would NEVER understand the purpose of what happened to me apart from God. Yes, knowing God and loving God creates an inner struggle, as I try to conceive of why He, being good, would allow it. BUT that is what getting to know Him and trust Him affords me--a faith and hope that He allowed it (He didn't want it to happen, but chose to allow it to work a greater good in my life that could not have transpired without it). That may not make sense to some, it may anger still others, but I believe that He can use evil and tragedy and make GOOD come of it. And I can tell you that He has. I believe that God did not CREATE evil--(yes, He is the creator of ALL things), but evil came from His creation. And he allowed it. I had to confess that picture of a weak God as sin--I was not trusting what God said about Himself. He is all-powerful, AND loving. I will not pretend to have all the answers, but I know how He is using the advent of evil in my own life to conform me to the image of His Son.

Edited by lattelady
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but I know how He is using the advent of evil in my own life to conform me to the image of His Son.

Yes, we must experience evil to truly understand the joy and holiness in the absence of evil. Evil is a necessary ingredient in our exaltation.

I'm truly sorry about your past. I didn't have to experience abuse like that as a child, but I am close to those that have. I hope you find healing and peace.

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I have two responses to the first question of the thread. First, I find that I learn the most about myself in the face of adversity, and can then determine the personal improvements that I need to make to be a better person. In light of this, I am actually thankful that bad things happen. Besides that, many of the bad things that people have problems with center on death, which can lead to a return to God. So is this really bad? I suppose it is if that individual is wicked.

The other response I have is a question to answer a question. Others may ask if God is at fault for evil, or even blame him. I would ask if he is responsible for good, and I would blame him for that.

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Are you sure? Some make Him out to be such an author in their mystery appeal to justify Godly orders for murder, raping and pillaging.

Yes, I know you are against pinning the rap on God.

;)

Traditional Christianity holds to Creato Ex Nihilo - creation out of nothing and all that is, including man, was created by God. As man inevitably does evil, God, man's creator, must bear the responsibility for what he created.

In Mormonism, man's essence is co-eternal along with God. God doesn't, therefore, have to be the creator of man or man's evil, or Satan's evil.

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Regardless of whether or not the earth is "fallen" God, the creator of the earth is still responsible for natural evil and not doing anything about it.

As I think you mentioned earlier in the thread, there can be a debate over the definition of evil. Is something evil if it brings people closer to God?

An example: Hurricane Katrina. Horrific damage resulted in an unusual outpouring of service and goodwill for all the victims. People realized what was most important. They same happened after 9/11. As for those who died, if they left this life for a place without pain or suffering, how is that evil?

How do we know that God does nothing? Perhaps he just doesn't do what we think he should do.

As a personal victim of child abuse and sexual abuse--I absolutely refute that He did nothing for me. He did not reach down and swipe the bad people away but he gave me the strength and testimony to survive it. When things were at their worst and I was sobbing my heart out, I literally felt the arms of someone around me. I felt physical warmth. That was something not nothing! Perhaps that is not good enough for some but right now, I have a very happy "middle" to my life and I can attribute all of it to living the principles of his gospel. Things could get hard again anytime, but I have a spiritual support system to deal with it. My faith made me stronger and God turned what could have become hate, depression, and apathy into the precious jewel of empathy.

If God is the one who deals out pain and men call it evil--isn't it just a matter of perspective?

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I like to refer to scripture.

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

2 Nephi 2:11&13

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As I think you mentioned earlier in the thread, there can be a debate over the definition of evil. Is something evil if it brings people closer to God?

An example: Hurricane Katrina. Horrific damage resulted in an unusual outpouring of service and goodwill for all the victims. People realized what was most important. They same happened after 9/11. As for those who died, if they left this life for a place without pain or suffering, how is that evil?

No, there is not a debate, they are simply concepts used in philosophy:

"

Evil can be divided into two distinct categories: moral evil and natural evil. Moral evil is evil that results from an act, or failure to act, of man. Without the action, or omission of an action, by a human agent moral evil would not occur. For example, murder is an evil brought about by a human agent, and therefore is a moral evil. Even if the murder victim's death was directly caused by the effect of a poison on his central nervous system, the ultimate agent of the victim's death was the murderer responsible for introducing the poison into his system. Likewise, the mass starvation in Ethiopia is a moral evil resulting from the refusal of Ethiopian government officials to distribute emergency relief food supplies, which would alleviate the famine, or to allocate more of the country's annual budget for agricultural assistance, which would help Ethiopia's farmers produce more food.

In contrast to moral evil, natural evil arises through no fault of man. Man has no control over natural evil, and is completely powerless to prevent its occurrence. Thus, an excruciatingly painful death resulting from an incurable terminal disease is a natural evil, as is the suffering caused by catastrophic natural phenomena such as tornadoes, floods, hurricanes, and earthquakes."

How do we know that God does nothing? Perhaps he just doesn't do what we think he should do.

There is to be an earthquake that kills people. God does not prevent it or the deaths.

There is to be a murder. God does not prevent it.

That is how we know.

As a personal victim of child abuse and sexual abuse--I absolutely refute that He did nothing for me. He did not reach down and swipe the bad people away but he gave me the strength and testimony to survive it. When things were at their worst and I was sobbing my heart out, I literally felt the arms of someone around me. I felt physical warmth. That was something not nothing! Perhaps that is not good enough for some but right now, I have a very happy "middle" to my life and I can attribute all of it to living the principles of his gospel. Things could get hard again anytime, but I have a spiritual support system to deal with it. My faith made me stronger and God turned what could have become hate, depression, and apathy into the precious jewel of empathy.

I am sorry to hear that... yet God did not prevent the abuse. That is what is at issue.

If God is the one who deals out pain and men call it evil--isn't it just a matter of perspective?

In this case it's a matter of definition.

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I know there have been several threads about this, but I just finished a thread over on myspace with someone who wanted to blame God for evil in the world. The essentials of his argument were that child abuse happens, and because it happens, either there is no God, or God would rather sit and watch it happen rather than step in and do something about it.

After several posts, and after I had already stated that it is the individual that is responsible for evil in the world, I said the following;

Let's just say, for the sake of this argument that there is no God.

God does not exist.

The existence of evil in the world is evidence that God does not exist.

So, Who's fault is it that evil is in the world?

Who do we blame now?

His answer was this;

That's simple, the individual. The individual is the cause of evil in the world.

I thought it was fascinating that when we took God out of the matter, he reached the right answer for the question.

Even more fascinating is the realization that whether there is a God or not, We are still ultimately responsible for the conditions of this life. With God, we are accountable to him for our actions. Without God, there's no one else to blame but ourselves anyway.

Thoughts/ideas?

GOD is the author of chaos but agency is left for all intelligence to determine their own path – whether it is choosing evil [not in compliance or following HIS will] or choose the right in following the will of the FATHER.

Also, you need to remember the amount and depth of patience our FATHER and the Savior have shown for this world in allowing the ‘tares’ remain among the ‘wheat.’ If not, there would be no one left if the Destroying Angels have their way. How many times have these henchmen of GOD wanted to remove those who sin against the FATHER?

Be fortunate, even for you, not being sinless still live in mortality another day to repent. There is no separation of level what is constitute sin for them...it is still sin.;)

Edited by Hemidakota
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I believe that there are two factors missing from this discussion.

First is the concept and argument proposed by Satan in the Great Council where G-d presented his plan. Lucifer’s plan was to end all possibilities that can result in imbalance giving evil advantage. He purported that a “just” “loving” and “all powerful” G-d should not allow evil to threaten the innocent. His argument was powerful enough to divide heaven from which Lucifer drew unto him a part in the great debate that believed him.

Jesus presented a different idea apart from Lucifer’s. Jesus taught that although there is evil and that evil does indeed exist, that evil can be overcome. He taught that the only sure way to overcome evil is to face it and in the end the good and innocent must suffer in order to overcome evil. He then offered himself as a sacrifice to suffer for all that evil could cause. But he also took this one step farther – He suggested that anyone so willing could join with him and suffer with him – not to the same degree as him but could be a part of his work in suffering to overcome evil. But all this can only be accomplished if the suffer does not draw any “glory” unto themselves for their suffering. It must be a real and actual sacrifice and suffering – not a pretense but a real state of suffering both by Jesus and those willing to suffer with him.

My last sentence brings me to the next factor. That is the understanding that spirit cannot suffer and that true suffering requires connection with the physical – only the “mortal flesh and blood” capable of death can suffer. Only by becoming flesh and blood and suffering can evil be overcome. And only by overcoming evil can there be “eternal” salvation. Therefore a covenant was established – which is the covenant of salvation – where Jesus would suffer (even unto death) and likewise so will those that join the cause of Christ, suffer with him. In this covenant man will fall. In the fallen state man must confront evil and experience the wrath of evil (knowledge of good and evil) and then through the atonement of Christ man must repent. Once one has become free of their sins then they can then suffer with Christ to overcome evil. Thus through this covenant man can inherit with all rights and privileges which includes every blessing of being a free citizen in the Kingdom of G-d. And so must everyone of the covenant face a trial to become “one” with Christ and The Father. This from the beginning is according to the Great Plan of Salvation.

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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