Is evil really God's fault?


RipplecutBuddha
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In Mormonism, God uses evil to accomplish his overall design: to bring about the immortality and eternal life of mankind (Moses 1:39). We cannot be saved without experiencing opposition (2 Nephi 2), nor can we be exalted and know happiness.

Tragedies occur within God's plan, whether he creates them or not, because God knows that the short-term pain is worth the eternal blessings for us.

Look at it this way: we know our children are going to get bumps and bruises along the way. But instead of tying them down in their cribs, we encourage them to try walking. Even though we know they will fall and get hurt, and possibly suffer extreme injury. Why? Because the risk is worth it. 35 year old diapered men who cannot walk, talk, or think for themselves will never know the happiness and joy of accomplishment, having their own family, or bringing good to pass in the world.

We allow our kids to risk hurt and harm when we give them the car keys. We allow them to have their hearts broken, when they go out on the first date. We allow them to risk failure, in order to overcome and win. All of this because the end result is more important and worth the risks involved.

And God understands this on an eternal level, not just on our mortal level.

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I agree with rameumptom in principle, but I would put it in a slightly different light. God does not use evil in the sense of being a source thereof. Rather, God permits man his agency, knowing that man will use it at times in the service of Satan, whom God will not destroy till the end of the Millennium. The distinction is that evil exists in the world because of man's willingness to use his agency to follow Satan. All evil would disappear tomorrow if man would use his agency only to follow God. Note 1 Nephi 22:26 states that Satan will be bound because of the righteousness of the people. They refuse him a place in their hearts, and so he can no longer influence them for evil.

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In Mormonism, God uses evil to accomplish his overall design: to bring about the immortality and eternal life of mankind (Moses 1:39). We cannot be saved without experiencing opposition (2 Nephi 2), nor can we be exalted and know happiness.

Tragedies occur within God's plan, whether he creates them or not, because God knows that the short-term pain is worth the eternal blessings for us.

Look at it this way: we know our children are going to get bumps and bruises along the way. But instead of tying them down in their cribs, we encourage them to try walking. Even though we know they will fall and get hurt, and possibly suffer extreme injury. Why? Because the risk is worth it. 35 year old diapered men who cannot walk, talk, or think for themselves will never know the happiness and joy of accomplishment, having their own family, or bringing good to pass in the world.

We allow our kids to risk hurt and harm when we give them the car keys. We allow them to have their hearts broken, when they go out on the first date. We allow them to risk failure, in order to overcome and win. All of this because the end result is more important and worth the risks involved.

And God understands this on an eternal level, not just on our mortal level.

Minor evil along the way - bumps and bruises along the way that is educative and formative - is understandable.

The problem, however, is horrific evil, moral and natural, that is not educative. Take for example a child that is kidnapped, savaged, and killed. That is the problem.

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I think part of the problem with this whole theory is that we are expecting God to act a certain way. We give him rules like, “If God is good then he will prevent bad things from happening.” Or “If something bad happens and God does not prevent it then it proves that God is evil, and if God can not be evil then this proves that God does not exist.” But the problem with these rules is that they are man’s rules. How can any of us hope to understand the reasoning behind why God does what he does? Did he send us to this earth saying that he would make everything easy and wonderful for us? No. This is a learning experience and that means that sometimes bad things are going to happen. Does God cause bad or evil things to take place? I do not believe that he does, instead I think he allows bad and evil things to happen. Does this make him evil because he does not stop bad things from happening? I do not believe it does. Just because God does not fit into your rules of how you think he should behave to make him good does not mean that he is not good.

This question over whether God is good or evil or if he even exists falls into the parameters of logic; I keep finding that the logic of man can not always comprehend the essence of God. What this tells me is that logic is not the way to discover the truthfulness of God as we can only know the truthfulness of God through our own experiences, and as those can only be true to us then they can not be proven through logic.

When it comes down to it I know that God will not keep bad things from happening to me in my life, but I do know that when the bad things do come that God will be there for me to strengthen me and to help me grow from the experience.

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Another, simple for some complicated for those brought up in a monotheistic mindset, idea is one of Duality. One entity controls that which is evil and another that which is good. In my faith there is a god that created the physical/mortal world and another, pure god that embodies good virtues and the soul.

Christianity tries to do a similar job with their aspect of a god and his lesser counterpart satan, but falls short because the god is supposed to be completely omnipotent thus allowing something 'evil' like satan to exist is at the very least inane.

Another problem with the Christian experience is lopping everything into 'free will' or 'agency' which does wonder for murderers and burglars but falls short in the realms of locusts and guinea worms.

This predicament is further hampered by concepts like predestination, predetermination, 'everybody goes to heaven,' and other divine plans. If a person's actions or life has been predetermined, even in the most slight of contexts, then the presiding god would know of such 'evil' outcomes and continue to let such outcomes occur. This means either 1. god is uncaring, 2. god is not omnipotent, or 3. god uses some people as examples.

A final thought has more of a metaphysical than theological base: good and evil are simply fluid, complementary concepts. The old adage 'Yin without Yang' and 'there can be no good without evil' apply here. Specifically, the concepts of 'good' and 'evil' are fluid and based on morays, ethics, and taboos.

The Problem of Evil exists, has always existed, and will most likely always exist, unfortunately.

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Death is necessary to return to our Heavenly Father's presence, why would this be called evil, if God finishes their probationary period sooner than expected? If a person tries to take that power in their own hands, i.e. murder, then that person has done something evil. God not preventing the murder is not evil, he allows that person to end their probationary period earlier than most, like finishing college in 2 years in stead of 4. I don't see anything evil about that.

Also to judge, there has to be an action to judge against, He can't judge someone ahead of time like in the movie "Minority Report".

If a natural disaster brings home hundreds of God's children, I don't see that as evil.

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Minor evil along the way - bumps and bruises along the way that is educative and formative - is understandable.

The problem, however, is horrific evil, moral and natural, that is not educative. Take for example a child that is kidnapped, savaged, and killed. That is the problem.

Evil is evil, Snow. Either it is all understandable under the same precepts, or none of it is understandable.

For us, killing, murder and rape are all horrific. Why? Because it is based upon a limited, mortal perspective. From an eternal perspective, it may not mean anything whatsoever. It is just as my baby's fall while learning to walk seems to be just a blip on the radar of mortality, so the tragedies that twist us inside may be just a blip on the eternal scale.

And in the eternal scheme of things, they can be just as educative as any other blip. For this reason, the Lord told Joseph Smith that all the trials were good for him (D&C 121, 122). Why? Did Jesus say, "well, Joseph, the arrests and imprisonment are good for you to learn by; however, I am not quite sure about when they tarred you and your baby died; or when they raped the women in Missouri. Those things, I'll have to get back to you on."

I really don't think that in 100,000 years, Hitler's ghastly death camps will mean as much to us as they do now. Especially after Christ's atonement does all the healing. It will, however, become a big learning experience to us - for us to become like God means we need to understand the horrors of such actions, and how to overcome them.

Either it is all explained, or none of it is explained.

Edited by rameumptom
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I've heard a most powerful definition of evil...one that removes the blame from God for its existence in general, as well as for its apparent creation (at least for us "out-of-nothingers"). Evil is the absence of God. So, when Adam and Eve rebelled in the Garden, they did so by seeking knowledge apart from God (thus learning of evil). The definition helps, but still does not answer why God allows evil to happen to innocents.

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Evil is evil, Snow. Either it is all understandable under the same precepts, or none of it is understandable.

For us, killing, murder and rape are all horrific. Why? Because it is based upon a limited, mortal perspective. From an eternal perspective, it may not mean anything whatsoever. It is just as my baby's fall while learning to walk seems to be just a blip on the radar of mortality, so the tragedies that twist us inside may be just a blip on the eternal scale.

And in the eternal scheme of things, they can be just as educative as any other blip.

You hit this spot on! I could agree with Snow's listed definitions if there were no eternal plan, no great purpose for life, and no reason for suffering--which I believe is largely needed to teach us about ourselves not to show God what we can do.

If God simply created human life for entertainment value and to be worshiped for self-satisfying reasons, then what he allows is evil and he is evil. I am not interested in believing that such a god exists. If he does, I vote we all to rebel against him. I believe his name is Zeus. ;)

Edited by Ammonite
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I've heard a most powerful definition of evil...one that removes the blame from God for its existence in general, as well as for its apparent creation (at least for us "out-of-nothingers"). Evil is the absence of God. So, when Adam and Eve rebelled in the Garden, they did so by seeking knowledge apart from God (thus learning of evil). The definition helps, but still does not answer why God allows evil to happen to innocents.

Exactly...

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off topic and out of curiosity, why do you use the oroborus and the sun wheel in your avatar?

Another, simple for some complicated for those brought up in a monotheistic mindset, idea is one of Duality. One entity controls that which is evil and another that which is good. In my faith there is a god that created the physical/mortal world and another, pure god that embodies good virtues and the soul.

Christianity tries to do a similar job with their aspect of a god and his lesser counterpart satan, but falls short because the god is supposed to be completely omnipotent thus allowing something 'evil' like satan to exist is at the very least inane.

Another problem with the Christian experience is lopping everything into 'free will' or 'agency' which does wonder for murderers and burglars but falls short in the realms of locusts and guinea worms.

This predicament is further hampered by concepts like predestination, predetermination, 'everybody goes to heaven,' and other divine plans. If a person's actions or life has been predetermined, even in the most slight of contexts, then the presiding god would know of such 'evil' outcomes and continue to let such outcomes occur. This means either 1. god is uncaring, 2. god is not omnipotent, or 3. god uses some people as examples.

A final thought has more of a metaphysical than theological base: good and evil are simply fluid, complementary concepts. The old adage 'Yin without Yang' and 'there can be no good without evil' apply here. Specifically, the concepts of 'good' and 'evil' are fluid and based on morays, ethics, and taboos.

The Problem of Evil exists, has always existed, and will most likely always exist, unfortunately.

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Evil is evil, Snow. Either it is all understandable under the same precepts, or none of it is understandable.

For us, killing, murder and rape are all horrific. Why? Because it is based upon a limited, mortal perspective. From an eternal perspective, it may not mean anything whatsoever. It is just as my baby's fall while learning to walk seems to be just a blip on the radar of mortality, so the tragedies that twist us inside may be just a blip on the eternal scale.

And in the eternal scheme of things, they can be just as educative as any other blip. For this reason, the Lord told Joseph Smith that all the trials were good for him (D&C 121, 122). Why? Did Jesus say, "well, Joseph, the arrests and imprisonment are good for you to learn by; however, I am not quite sure about when they tarred you and your baby died; or when they raped the women in Missouri. Those things, I'll have to get back to you on."

I really don't think that in 100,000 years, Hitler's ghastly death camps will mean as much to us as they do now. Especially after Christ's atonement does all the healing. It will, however, become a big learning experience to us - for us to become like God means we need to understand the horrors of such actions, and how to overcome them.

Either it is all explained, or none of it is explained.

The problem of evil is: How can a just, benevolent god, allow so much suffering - either he can't do something about it, or he won't.

One of the proposed solutions to the problem of evil is that evil is educative - that by suffering, either natural or moral evil, we are able to overcome it and learn from it, we progress by having been subjected to it. That solution gets God off the hook. However, there is much evil that causes much suffering that is not educative: an infant that is secretly kidnapped and horrifically savaged in the woods and buried. The infant doesn't learn from it because he/she is an infant. The parents my learn to overcome their grief but they don't know all the details of the horrific abuse the infant solved so more evil is at work than is necessary for the educative process - which means the problem of evil is not really solved - how can a good and powerful God allow so much suffering?

Your attempted solution - that's it's not really that the kidnapping and rape and torturous death of an infant (for example) is all that bad in the long scheme of things - is wholly unsatisfying. Would you, a parent, allow your child to be subjected to any suffering if you could prevent it? I, as a loving parent, do whatever I can to protect and cherish my child - maybe falling out of a tree and breaking their arm would be good for them in the long run but if I see them fall, I am going to catch them. If an murder tries to take my child, I am going to prevent them.

Is the horrible suffering in natural disaster commensurate with education people derive from it?

Carrying your argument to it's logical conclusions we should just let people suffer - it's no bid deal and it's good for them. Perhaps you could explain how such horrific suffering, natural and moral, is no big deal and good for em - without an appeal to mystery?

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One thought along the educative lines (not satisfying at all from our perspective) is that we are learning what rebellion does. 6000 years of a world in which some live apart from God. 6000 years of humanity operating with the knowledge of evil. Imagine if such were allowed in the eternal kingdom. Perhaps one purpose for all of this is so that we will forever know what our existence would be apart from God? This education, horrific as it is, may be a key to the blessedness of the eternal kingdom.

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If contemporary Christianity is be believed evil existed long before humanity existed if the premise that angels rebelled and fought one another in heaven. Whilst the specific rebellion may not necessarily be perceived as evil one might postulate that if 'god is good' then 'anything against god is evil' (reinforced by the statement 'evil is the absence of god' mentioned earlier).

If the purpose for all this, physical/mortal existence, is simply to know what existence would be like without a god, as suggested earlier, then why would said god impart his existence into the physical realm? If the exercise (physical/mortal existence) was for a person (concept of an eternal conscious) to 'live without god' then there would be no holy writ, prophets, miracles, portence, burning bushes, and waffles with the virgin mary's face popping up. It would be a bit like having an experiment to see what dogs would do if there were no humans around and having the scientists pop in every now and then to give the mongrels a scratch on the ear.

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Seth, first, we do not know the whole purpose of God in this. My suggestion is that God may indeed have wanted us to know what being apart from God, even for a brief amount of time, brings. And yet, even by allowing us that reality, he gave us volition. We can taste that apartness--we can even embrace it. Yet, he also made a way back--reconciliation is possible. And perhaps love is only meaningful when it can be withdrawn, but isn't.

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I am having a problem with the way we define evil. It just does not make sense.

Take for example the epoch story of Adam and Eve. We must understand that G-d did know in advance what was going to happen. It appears that Adam and Eve, in their innocence, really did not understand. Is there no responsibility in G-d for not preparing Adam and Eve to face the temptations of Satan?

Let us think about this. G-d places Adam and Eve in the garden and explains a little to them but whose fault is it that Adam and Eve did not grasp the concept? G-d must have realized that there were better and more effective ways to explain to Adam and Eve what he expected of them. Then G-d allows Satan into the garden knowing full well that Satan would lie and beguile Eve and that she was trusting and would never see it coming. And G-d does not warn Adam and Eve about Satan? It was G-d that knew what would happen and did nothing to change or prevent it – not one thing. In fact it could be argued that G-d did everything necessary to insure that Adam and Eve would fall and then takes no responsibility at all for what he made sure happened. From the information we are given in scripture – does anyone really believe Adam and Eve actually made a “knowledgeable” choice and completely desired the outcome they got?

If any parent in our society treated their innocent children like this they would be punished for child abuse and neglect. But G-d is guilty of nothing? Cannot we expect G-d to live up to the same standard of goodness we expect of ordinary parents?

If we define evil as being away from G-d then G-d is responsible for the evil of abandoning Adam and Eve to be influenced and tempted by Satan when Adam and Eve had done nothing at all to be worthy of the punishment to be “away” from G-d while Satan had his way with twisting everything.

I am wondering if anyone really has a handle of what is good verses what is evil. Am I the only one that sees a problem? I think Snow does and that is why he is playing this the way he is.

The Traveler

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There may be no Bible story that we interpret more differently than that of Adam and Eve's fall in the Garden. While I agree with the general difficulty of explaining how an all-knowing, all-powerful, everywhere-present God can allow for the evil that takes place, I find in the Genesis 3 account of the Fall no culpability on God's part. We are not told that Adam & Eve did or did not have intensive training as to the evil of disobedience and of eating from that tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What we know clearly is that they were told not to do so, and that they were punished when they did.

Traveler and most LDS I talk to believe that Adam & Eve were basically innocent, deceived by Satan, and that Heavenly Father set this up so the plan of salvation could unfold. I, and most Protestants and Catholics, on the other hand, view this as the story of humanity's mother and father willfully rebelling against God, seeking to have the power of his knowledge apart from his control (when you eat from this tree you'll have knowledge--just like God. Well if you're like God you don't need him, right?).

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I've heard a most powerful definition of evil... Evil is the absence of God.

This has interesting ramifications for those Old Testament and other stories that have God as the author of ordering wrongdoing and directly helping inflict calamities on Job (however Job is allegorical as opposed to being professed as a history of the Children of Abraham).

The definition helps, but still does not answer why God allows evil to happen to innocents.

The idea of Free Agency and its resultant hands off policy seems like the ticket.

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There may be no Bible story that we interpret more differently than that of Adam and Eve's fall in the Garden. While I agree with the general difficulty of explaining how an all-knowing, all-powerful, everywhere-present God can allow for the evil that takes place, I find in the Genesis 3 account of the Fall no culpability on God's part. We are not told that Adam & Eve did or did not have intensive training as to the evil of disobedience and of eating from that tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What we know clearly is that they were told not to do so, and that they were punished when they did.

Traveler and most LDS I talk to believe that Adam & Eve were basically innocent, deceived by Satan, and that Heavenly Father set this up so the plan of salvation could unfold. I, and most Protestants and Catholics, on the other hand, view this as the story of humanity's mother and father willfully rebelling against God, seeking to have the power of his knowledge apart from his control (when you eat from this tree you'll have knowledge--just like God. Well if you're like God you don't need him, right?).

LDS have much more of a story than what is in the Bible.

I do not see how you can say that from the Bible account Adam and Eve were not begiled when the Bible says that very thing. They were tricked according to the Bible - by an expert tricker. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate they planned and carried out a willful rebellion. They were punished for being begiled - not for any willful thing according to the Bible. Now the LDS do have scripture to indicate that there was more - much more that was engaged and that the whole thing was planned - but that is not in the Bible.

Also the concept that being like G-d means you do not need him? That is completely false and I will prove it to be so beyond what any reasonable person should understand. Are we not all humans? Does being human mean that we have no need of any other humans - ever? And were not humans created to be like G-d?

Where does this stuff come from?

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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I do not see how you can say that from the Bible account Adam and Eve were not begiled when the Bible says that very thing. They were tricked according to the Bible - by an expert tricker.

I just reread the section. God tells Adam and Eve not to eat or they'll die. The Serpent says they won't die, and they will become like God, knowing good and evil. They eat. God asks why, and Eve says the Serpent deceived her.

You would suggest that this is 100% authentic, true and acceptable--that it was reasonable and righteous for Eve to believe the Serpent over her Creator??? Then why does God respond by saying that because of what they have done they are cursed???

I cannot simply read this passage and possibly side with Adam and Eve's innocence vs. God's vengence. IMHO you do so because you are married to their innocence, and the idea that Heavenly Father planned this in advance. The passage itself is not complicated, and Adam and Eve come across as guilty, and the LORD as quite merciful--clothing them, and promising a Messiah.

There is nothing in the Bible to indicate they planned and carried out a willful rebellion.

Eat the fruit and become smart, like God. Again...if you're like God you don't need God. And God responds by cursing them.

Also the concept that being like G-d means you do not need him? That is completely false and I will prove it to be so beyond what any reasonable person should understand. Are we not all humans? Does being human mean that we have no need of any other humans - ever? And were not humans created to be like G-d?

Where does this stuff come from?

The Traveler

Oh come now. Adam and Eve had everything they needed--but it was from God. All that Satan could offer them was the knowledge to break that dependence. It's not that hard of a connection to make. Take a look-see a few chapters down the line, and you have humanity attempting to build a tower so they can overthrow God!

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