Hebrew names in the BoM


thekabalist
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Here's another one:

Gadianton - גדי-נתון - Gadi-n'ton - Given unto the goat or "a goat is given".

I hear this name represented a group of evil people right? So "given unto the goat" could be a plausible translation.

I was quickly scanning through this and I don't see that your question was answered. Forgive me if it was and I missed it.

The Gadianton robbers in the Book of Mormon were a wicked band originally led by a man named Kishkumen, united to murder, rob, and gain power. They wanted a certain man by the name of Paanchi to be the new Nephite chief judge. When the people selected his brother Pahoran to rule, Paanchi rebelled and was arrested, tried and condemned to death. His angry supporters sent Kishkumen to murder Pahoran. Afterwards, Kishkumen and those who sent him entered into a covenent never to reveal who murdered the chief judge.

So which brings me to another question, and again forgive me if this has been asked and answered already.

Two names here for interpretation. I realize I've already given you a background of these two men but would still be interested in your interpretation.

Paanchi

Pahoran

Edited by pam
major spelling issues today :)
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Yes it is a valid question. And this is why it was answered in anticipation in the first post. But when you say you are confused about it when you asked the same question at the other forum and received an explanation then I have good reason to question your motives. If you did get an answer before why come here and make it look like you didn't know anything about the process? Or if the answer before wasn't satisfactory why not mention it in this post? I may be wrong but it seems to me that there is a hidden agenda here. Still, back to the subject I have no reason to transliterate your name into Hebrew and try to apply meaning to it when your name is not of Hebrew origin. In fact I doubt that I could find any meaning at all. But in the case of the BoM there are certain transliterations which even match the context of the book. Still I acknowledge that it is speculative. I said so in the very first post and in boldface! But scholars do this all the time. I've never seen anyone question those who transliterate Jesus into Yehoshua or Yeshua or Yeshu and yet the truth is that nobody knows what the real name of Jesus was in Hebrew. Same goes for the other characters of the NT. And while it is speculative it is still appreciated by scholars so are you not using double standards because of your belief that the BoM is not of Hebrew origin?

b'shalom!

There are lots of people who question why Yeshua or Yehoshua is transliterated Jesus into Yeshua or Yehoshua, and insist on only using Yehoshua or Yeshua. If you looked around on the other board, you'd find many such discussions. The issue, though, is not that things are transliterated, but that meanings are being assigned to transliterated names. Pointing out parallels is one thing, assigning meanings seems to go beyond what would be appropriate under the circumstances.

Edited by Vanhin
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Well, yes, but whether it was asked before matters if it was already answered before. Unlike the last inhospitable place, where this was asked, this particular forum is not a debate forum. You are welcome to discuss these things, but just keep that in mind. We will take appropriate action if there is even a hint of harassment towards our distinguished guest.

See, here we believe whole heartedly that the Book of Mormon is true, and that it is an ancient Hebrew record of God's dealings in ancient America. So, we are not surprised, when proper names appear to be Hebrew or Semitic, at the very least. Thekabalist has adequately explained how he derives at his interpretations, and also admits that they are highly speculative. We are okay with that.

It's still pretty interesting, wouldn't you say?

Take Abinadi, for example. When it was first offered for him to tell us the meaning, Pam accidental misspelled the name as "Abinidai" (see post #4). There was no way for thekabalist to look up the name in the Book of Mormon and find out what happened to him, because that's not how it is spelled. Yet here is his answer.

If you know any thing about Abinadi, you will at least be impressed at the fact that his name suggests that he was persecuted. He was in fact burned to death for his prophecies.

Regards,

Vanhin

And my question specifically related to how much of the context he took into account when he assigned meaning to that name.

If you decide this is not a debatable area, that is fine, I follow the rules (I was a moderator here for 2 to 3 years, after all), and the discussion is interesting, but sometimes questions need to be asked.

Edited by Vanhin
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I did not ask this question on the other board, I did ask a related, but different, question on the other board. That question was just if you transliterated the words to Hebrew. You answered "Yes", and that was as far as it went. My question here is different. It is about assigning meanings to what amounts to a phonetical word.

There are lots of people who question why Yeshua or Yehoshua is transliterated Jesus into Yeshua or Yehoshua, and insist on only using Yehoshua or Yeshua. If you looked around on the other board, you'd find many such discussions. The issue, though, is not that things are transliterated, but that meanings are being assigned to transliterated names. Pointing out parallels is one thing, assigning meanings seems to go beyond what would be appropriate under the circumstances.

Jenda,

First I recommend you check the definition of "phonetical word" because you are using it incorrectly.

If you have anything constructive to add or if you would like to differ on the etymology of the names then please be welcome to participate. So far all we have is your personal opinion that transliteration is something "strange". OK you've made your point. Others disagree. And I honestly have no wish to convince you on the reason why such language analysis is important.

b'shalom!

Edited by Vanhin
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That's a tough one. What's the context?

All I can think of at the moment is גצ–לעם (gatz-l'am) or possibly גצ–להם (gatz-lahem) which could mean "that which sparkles unto the people" or "that which sparkles unto them".

b'shalom!

Alma 37:23 And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.

Joseph Smith on occasion used what he called a "seer stone", a pebble a couple of inches across. He named it "Gazelem".

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And when I thought it couldn't get any tougher Pam throws in "Kishkumen" LOL

OK here's what I have for this one:

קיש – kish - ring, signet (this is Aramaic actually), or a symbol of royalty

כאמן – k'aman - that is like a master

And here's Pahoran

פה - Peh - Mouth

חורין - Horin - Free

My guess is that "Pahoran" originally meant something like "I speak freely" or "I speak on behalf of freedom".

b'shalom!

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Jenda,

First I recommend you check the definition of "phonetical word" because you are using it incorrectly. I also think you are coming here with an agenda. My reasons have already been stated and your attempting to avoid the issue of your repeting a question posted in another forum only make it worse in my opinion.

If you have anything constructive to add or if you would like to differ on the etymology of the names then please be welcome to participate. So far all we have is your personal opinion that transliteration is something "strange". OK you've made your point. Others disagree. And I honestly have no wish to convince you on the reason why such language analysis is important.

b'shalom!

Since this forum is not for debate, I don't wish to debate, but you and Vanhin making baseless accusations against me, merely for asking how you are doing what you are doing almost makes debating a foregone conclusion (and of course, I will be the only one accused of it, even though you have leveled accusations at me). I asked one question, a different one from the one I asked on CF, and you accuse me of having an agenda. Yes, my agenda is to ask how, on what basis, you assign these meanings to these transliterated words. I guess that is a horrible agenda. I guess I'm not understanding why that is a horrid thing to want to know, and why it's so hard to answer it.

But I get that you don't wish to discuss it, even though it raises questions, hence a no-debate forum dedicated to it. Good luck with it, then. :sunny:

(P.S. - I realize that transliteration and phonetics are different (phonetics based on word sounds), but it is a similar concept. You are building a word in Hebrew from how it is written (and even maybe sounds) in English.)

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Jenda right now you are the only one debating it. Thekabalist was invited here and we like having him here. But I would also question your agenda as you haven't been on this site in how long? So I question why now?

Edited by pam
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Since this forum is not for debate, I don't wish to debate, but you and Vanhin making baseless accusations against me, merely for asking how you are doing what you are doing almost makes debating a foregone conclusion (and of course, I will be the only one accused of it, even though you have leveled accusations at me). I asked one question, a different one from the one I asked on CF, and you accuse me of having an agenda. Yes, my agenda is to ask how, on what basis, you assign these meanings to these transliterated words. I guess that is a horrible agenda. I guess I'm not understanding why that is a horrid thing to want to know, and why it's so hard to answer it.

But I get that you don't wish to discuss it, even though it raises questions, hence a no-debate forum dedicated to it. Good luck with it, then. :sunny:

(P.S. - I realize that transliteration and phonetics are different (phonetics based on word sounds), but it is a similar concept. You are building a word in Hebrew from how it is written (and even maybe sounds) in English.)

I think it is horrible that you booted thekabalist from the other forum and then come over here to harass him. Please go back to the pit that is the other forum and stay there.

:mad:

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Yes it is a valid question. And this is why it was answered in anticipation in the first post. But when you say you are confused about it when you asked the same question at the other forum and received an explanation then I have good reason to question your motives. If you did get an answer before why come here and make it look like you didn't know anything about the process? Or if the answer before wasn't satisfactory why not mention it in this post? I may be wrong but it seems to me that there is a hidden agenda here.

Still, back to the subject I have no reason to transliterate your name into Hebrew and try to apply meaning to it when your name is not of Hebrew origin. In fact I doubt that I could find any meaning at all. But in the case of the BoM there are certain transliterations which even match the context of the book. Still I acknowledge that it is speculative. I said so in the very first post and in boldface! But scholars do this all the time. I've never seen anyone question those who transliterate Jesus into Yehoshua or Yeshua or Yeshu and yet the truth is that nobody knows what the real name of Jesus was in Hebrew. Same goes for the other characters of the NT. And while it is speculative it is still appreciated by scholars so are you not using double standards because of your belief that the BoM is not of Hebrew origin?

b'shalom!

Jenda is A New Dawn in the other forum. She is a moderator and the one that I suspect was instrumental in having you booted from the site. I believe that what you were posting there was determined to be detrimental to their mission of pulling down the LDS faith through bias moderation that supports attacks against our beliefs and penalties against LDS or friends of LDS who point out the falsehoods which are used in their arguments.

I definately see a motive for coming over here. And I though you should know who you were dealing with and why.

Keep up the good work here, I love your posts.

:)

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I think it is horrible that you booted thekabalist from the other forum and then come over here to harass him. Please go back to the pit that is the other forum and stay there.

:mad:

I booted nobody from the other forum. LOL. I don't have that power. Sorry to burst that bubble.

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Jenda is A New Dawn in the other forum. She is a moderator and the one that I suspect was instrumental in having you booted from the site. I believe that what you were posting there was determined to be detrimental to their mission of pulling down the LDS faith through bias moderation that supports attacks against our beliefs and penalties against LDS or friends of LDS who point out the falsehoods which are used in their arguments.

I definately see a motive for coming over here. And I though you should know who you were dealing with and why.

Keep up the good work here, I love your posts.

:)

And you keep believing that. It's wrong, but you can continue to believe it.

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Jenda right now you are the only one debating it. Thekabalist was invited here and we like having him here. But I would also question your agenda as you haven't been on this site in how long? So I question why now?

I can discuss the issue with you in a PM, where those who are upset because I have asked a question won't butt in with issues that are not related.

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Whether or not I, or anyone else, asked you this question before, it is still a valid question. If you transliterated my screen name into Hebrew and tried to assign a meaning to it, it would certainly not convey a valid meaning. As you said, it is all conjecture. How much of the conjecture is based on the textual story you are taking the name from?

As I noted, transliteration IS used by scholars to find ties between peoples and languages.

Your name isn't in question as of being Hebrew. The Book of Mormon makes the claim of being written by Hebrews in an Egyptian/Hebrew form of language, making it the perfect book to attempt to transliterate back into Hebrew.

Given that over 40 names in the Book of Mormon ARE Semitic names, most unknown in Joseph Smith's day, we can learn much from the transliteration.

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Posted (edited) · Hidden
Hidden

I booted nobody from the other forum. LOL. I don't have that power. Sorry to burst that bubble.

Then feel free to focus on the rest of my message: I think it is horrible that you have followed him here. Please go back to the other forum. We are enjoying the discussions we are having here with him. I don't appreciate that being disrupted and especially you following him here to do so.

:mad:

Edited by RanMan
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