Hebrew names in the BoM


thekabalist
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Don't you mean a machloket leshem shamayim? And thekabalist is not arguing for the purpose of bringing truth. I think there is a way of bringing all perspectives here...but so far I haven't seen it as being very respectful. Thekabalist has stated from the beginning that it is his perspective and his understanding of his research. Not that is absolute truth. I've seen nothing but some being extremely critical of his perspectives and that's just not cool. Sorry..just the way I see it.

No, I do mean machaloket. That is how the vowels are placed in that word as it appears in Avot.

I'm confused. On the one hand Maya is saying that he is speculating, on the other there is yours, that presenting a different POV is not respectful.

Would someone then care to explain HOW to do so?

I've been critical of some of his input, it does not mean that I am trying to disresepct or insult him in any way.

That one can disagree with a position or a conclusion and not extend that into personal hatred of someone else seems perfectly natural to me, especially growing up in a Jewish environment, which is what I've been trying to explain.

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Volgadon let me ask you this. I'm sure you've been asked before but just to get it clear in my mind. Are you currently living in Israel and have you always lived there? Just so I understand a little more about your background and where you are coming from.

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Volgadon let me ask you this. I'm sure you've been asked before but just to get it clear in my mind. Are you currently living in Israel and have you always lived there? Just so I understand a little more about your background and where you are coming from.

I had already posted a little about that on this very thread, IIRC.

As of a few months ago, I've been in the States, to go to school and such.

If we don't count the two years on a mission, then yes, I've lived there my whole life. I was born there. I was born in Safed, grew up in Hatzor, moved to a small village near Tiberias. I grew up in a very traditional Jewish surrounding, I even attended religious classes after school. So my whole educational experience has been Jewish and Israeli. My environment has been Jewish.

In my childhood I was as familiar with the names of Akiva, Hillel and Honi as I was with Lehi, Nephi and Alma, if not more. I grew up reading aggadot chazal.

I've served in the army, I've been involved with Jewish youth groups in England, I've had rabbis for neighbours, as well as Yemenite moris. One of my favourite highschool teachers was a kabbalist from Safed.

Judaism is my culture and my heritage.

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Yes, Vanhin, thank you for that post trying to paint me as a racist, a bigot, an anti-Semite. A most useful post.

Alright, Volgadon, that was a little too much on my part. Forgive me.

I'm just saying give him a break. That's all. Besides, 1 Nephi 16 maybe the last of his commentary, since we haven't heard from him in a while. Hopefully he comes back when he can and continues.

In the meantime, I for one am grateful that he took the time to do all this, and I have found his commentary both interesting and useful.

On the Book of Mormon names, I bet he would have even more insight now than in the beginning, because he has had a little more exposure to the time and setting of the BoM and the narrative.

Regards,

Vanhin

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Alright, Volgadon, that was a little too much on my part. Forgive me.

Freely granted. So you know where I'm coming from, I find aspersions on my character of that nature to be utterly and deeply offensive. It is a line I don't tolerate being crossed. My ancestors have been persecuted for centuries, as any Jews living in Europe had been. The majority of my father's family, those that remained in Europe were murdered in the Holocaust. For someone even to insinuate what you had insinuated makes my blood boil.

What I'm trying to say is that I do find thekabalist's work interesting and useful, but some of the details seem a little off. It is about learning together isn't it? If I am saying something that is incorrect or mistaken, I would like to know instead of holding on to it. I'm sorry that I assumed that others would think likewise.

And I do hope he posts more.

I'm not his enemy, in no way shape or form am I his enemy.

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I'm not trying to drag this little spat any further than it needs to be, but since I don't know of any other place to post this, I'm going to make my comments here and then keep quite about this.

I'm not understanding the level of disparage being directed at volgadon. Now, I can understand the fact that this forum has a very specific purpose and strict rules as to what types of comments and questions can be raised. However, apart from that, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with volgadon's questions and comments. In fact some venue to allow points brought up by thekabalist to be peer reviewed can only be a good thing. Let me make it clear that I understand that thekabalist is not making truth claims. He is simply providing his perspective which he admits is speculative. However, why could we not allow others to explore these perspectives to see if perhaps they do have some scholarly value. Maybe not in this forum, but create another forum where thekabalist speculations and commentary can be further explored. Not for the sake of calling in to question the intergrity of thekabalist, but imagine if some of the claims that thekabalist has made can be confirmed by scholarly analysis?

Anyways, I think volgadon is being treated unfairly and is being disparaged simply because he might disagree and that to me is the greater offense.

Kind Regards,

Finrock

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Freely granted. So you know where I'm coming from, I find aspersions on my character of that nature to be utterly and deeply offensive. It is a line I don't tolerate being crossed. My ancestors have been persecuted for centuries, as any Jews living in Europe had been. The majority of my father's family, those that remained in Europe were murdered in the Holocaust. For someone even to insinuate what you had insinuated makes my blood boil.

I figured you would get what I was saying. It was a harsh way to point out that not all Jews were alike. Like I said, it was a little over the top.

What I'm trying to say is that I do find thekabalist's work interesting and useful, but some of the details seem a little off. It is about learning together isn't it? If I am saying something that is incorrect or mistaken, I would like to know instead of holding on to it. I'm sorry that I assumed that others would think likewise.

And I do hope he posts more.

I'm not his enemy, in no way shape or form am I his enemy.

Alright. Well, it initially came off that way to him, and he brought it to our attention, and to some of us who watch over this forum it did seem that you were trying to discredit Kabbalah, or point out that he wasn't even Jewish. Even in some of your communications with me privately I got that impression from you. I'm glad you are not his enemy after all.

Now that it's all cleared up, let's just go forward from here. I really don't think he minds questions and corrections. I think he is a little gun-shy because of the response his interest in the Book of Mormon has solicited from others from the start.

Regards,

Vanhin

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Thekabalist dont feel any better, when he is acused of not being honest.

Who accused him of being dishonest?

I did not accuse him of dishonesty, I did not accuse him of not being Jewish (I never ever thought that) and I certainly did not attempt to discredit him. I think some of his Hebrew is off, but that could happen to anyone. I make mistakes, everyone I know makes mistakes. So what if I don't think that the Zohar is really representative of the manner of prophecying among the Jews in 600 BC, I'm not trying to discredit thekabalist or claim that he isn't Jewish.

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I figured you would get what I was saying. It was a harsh way to point out that not all Jews were alike. Like I said, it was a little over the top.

It was harsh, disgusting, deeply hurtful and completely uncalled for. It was wrong, pure and simple. And not only that, you failed to understand my point. You attacked me for something I did not say. You were more than a little over the top.

Alright. Well, it initially came off that way to him, and he brought it to our attention, and to some of us who watch over this forum it did seem that you were trying to discredit Kabbalah, or point out that he wasn't even Jewish. Even in some of your communications with me privately I got that impression from you. I'm glad you are not his enemy after all.

Now that it's all cleared up, let's just go forward from here. I really don't think he minds questions and corrections. I think he is a little gun-shy because of the response his interest in the Book of Mormon has solicited from others from the start.

Regards,

Vanhin

So basically, people overreacted, assumed the very worst, judged and condemned me according to that.

I'll just restate that I have NEVER sought to discredit him or say that he isn't Jewish, and any other dark and nefarious deed I may be suspected of. All I did was to state that I thought some of his Hebrew conclusions were mistaken. In no way, shape or form is that a personal attack.

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It was harsh, disgusting, deeply hurtful and completely uncalled for. It was wrong, pure and simple. And not only that, you failed to understand my point. You attacked me for something I did not say. You were more than a little over the top.

It was a little over the top. I wasn't calling you a racist, a bigot, or an anti-Semite. I was just trying to make my point (distastefully I admit), which was that not all Jews are the way you think they are because you grew up around them. They have different personalities. Some like to argue, others don't. Some like to be challenged, and they like a challenge, others don't. Some have tough skin, and don't take things personally, and others are sensitive. They are people like you and me - so you can't box them in like that.

Maybe I didn't understand what you meant about Maya's #5. Are you saying that those who grow up in a Jewish environment typically can handle criticism, and that's why #5 baffled you? Help me understand what you are saying.

So basically, people overreacted, assumed the very worst, judged and condemned me according to that.

I'll just restate that I have NEVER sought to discredit him or say that he isn't Jewish, and any other dark and nefarious deed I may be suspected of. All I did was to state that I thought some of his Hebrew conclusions were mistaken. In no way, shape or form is that a personal attack.

Don't get carried away... Apparently, we just misunderstood your remarks as attacks, and now if you say you are not an enemy to thekabalist, we are willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Regards,

Vanhin

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Don't you think giving me the benefit of the doubt was something you should have done earlier? To say now that you are giving me the benefit of the doubt basically means that you still think I am his enemy out to discredit him, but are willing to entertain the thought that maybe it isn't so. If I've misunderstood you, I apologise.

It was a little over the top. I wasn't calling you a racist, a bigot, or an anti-Semite. I was just trying to make my point (distastefully I admit),

Yet that is exactly how it came across to me.

which was that not all Jews are the way you think they are because you grew up around them. They have different personalities. Some like to argue, others don't. Some like to be challenged, and they like a challenge, others don't. Some have tough skin, and don't take things personally, and others are sensitive. They are people like you and me - so you can't box them in like that.

Maybe I didn't understand what you meant about Maya's #5. Are you saying that those who grow up in a Jewish environment typically can handle criticism, and that's why #5 baffled you? Help me understand what you are saying.

My point is that someone with a Jewish background and upbringing, especially ones who have gone to a yeshiva, should understand that disagreement over a position held by the person is not an attack on the person himself. Never did I say that all Jews like to argue, or are thick-skinned. It just baffles me that someone with his background would immediately jump to the wrong conclusion about the intentions of someone with a similar background. Is that any clearer? And again, never did I claim that he is not Jewish, from his very writing style it is quite clear that he is Jewish.

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