Hebrew names in the BoM

[rameumptom]

I would respectfully disagree with him. It's highly unusual for Israelites to give foreign names to their sons and daughters. Double names yes but exclusively foreign names I doubt. And besides they seem to be very Hebrew in origin.

There were several times in the Bible and in archaeology when Egypt bore strong sway over Israel. Joseph had an Egyptian name, and both Abraham and Jacob sojourned there for years. Solomon married Pharaoh's daughter.

In archaeology, several bullae (clay imprints) of Hezekiah's seals have been found, many with scarab on them. Various Egyptian artifacts have been found at various times in Israel.

In fact, in Lehi's time, Jerusalem was leaning on Egypt to protect them from the Assyrians and Babylonians. Jeremiah was carried off to Egypt by the remaining Jews after Jerusalem's fall to Babylon. There, the Levite priests built a temple at Elephantine.

There was much connection with Egypt over the centuries, and I do not think it hard to believe that Israelites who traded with Egypt or wished to have Egypt's protection and strength wouldn't name children after Egyptians.

We have other examples of that in the Bible and Book of Mormon. The name, Ammon is Semitic, but it also is Egyptian. Amun is the head God of the Egyptians. It is highly likely that the name originally came from Egypt, and taken by the Ammonites and Hebrews when they departed Egypt's captivity (in the time of Moses).

Ammon is a very common name in the Book of Mormon: Ammon, Ammonihah, Laman, Lamoni, Helaman (or the Egyptian "Her-Amun" = In God's Presence), etc.

[thekabalist]

Some more I've checked:

Irreantum - ירה-אמתםירה - Ireh (He shall see) - Antem (their truth/truthfulness)

Sherem - שרם - Sheram (That is exalted)

Omni - אמני - Amni - Two possible meanings: "My master" or "My trustworthiness"

[thekabalist]

There were several times in the Bible and in archaeology when Egypt bore strong sway over Israel. Joseph had an Egyptian name, and both Abraham and Jacob sojourned there for years. Solomon married Pharaoh's daughter.

In archaeology, several bullae (clay imprints) of Hezekiah's seals have been found, many with scarab on them. Various Egyptian artifacts have been found at various times in Israel.

In fact, in Lehi's time, Jerusalem was leaning on Egypt to protect them from the Assyrians and Babylonians. Jeremiah was carried off to Egypt by the remaining Jews after Jerusalem's fall to Babylon. There, the Levite priests built a temple at Elephantine.

There was much connection with Egypt over the centuries, and I do not think it hard to believe that Israelites who traded with Egypt or wished to have Egypt's protection and strength wouldn't name children after Egyptians.

We have other examples of that in the Bible and Book of Mormon. The name, Ammon is Semitic, but it also is Egyptian. Amun is the head God of the Egyptians. It is highly likely that the name originally came from Egypt, and taken by the Ammonites and Hebrews when they departed Egypt's captivity (in the time of Moses).

Ammon is a very common name in the Book of Mormon: Ammon, Ammonihah, Laman, Lamoni, Helaman (or the Egyptian "Her-Amun" = In God's Presence), etc.

I notice now that I haven't explained myself very well. What I mean is that no Israelite would give only a foreign name to their sons and daughters and it would be highly unlikely they would be referred to by such. In the Bible the only times we see such things are during the exile into other countries such as with Hadassah/Esther. Every Israelite is required to have a Hebrew name. It's our spiritual identity and it has been so for ages.

Now all the names you have mentioned seem pretty Semitic to me. I ask myself if one would even have to consider any Egyptian influence at all in the names of the BoM.

As for the name "amun" I doubt it came from Egypt. The term is cognate to the Hebrew "amen" which means "truthful" and is very widely used in Judaism. It's not only a name but a root with several uses. I can see however how a semitic word "amen" would account for the name of the Egyptian god. Perhaps this was known to them as the god of truth?

b'shalom

[Vanhin]

Some more I've checked:

Irreantum - ירה-אמתםירה - Ireh (He shall see) - Antem (their truth/truthfulness)

Sherem - שרם - Sheram (That is exalted)

Omni - אמני - Amni - Two possible meanings: "My master" or "My trustworthiness"

Good stuff thekabalist. How about the word, "Rameumptom".

Regards,

Vanhin

[thekabalist]

Good stuff thekabalist. How about the word, "Rameumptom".

Regards,

Vanhin

Wow Vanhin that's a tough one. It looks like a compound term to me. If I were to guess a triple-root word I'd guess this:

רמ - ram - exalted

ומפ - u'mef - and leading

תם - faultless/complete

If this is a triple-root word, it could mean something like "that which is faultless and exalted to lead". But I'm guessing a little context could be of help here. Is this a military or government title of some kind?

[Vort]

Good stuff thekabalist. How about the word, "Rameumptom".

The term "rameumptom" was used by Nephites separatists who called themselves "Zoramites", named for their leader, Zoram. The original Zoram in the Book of Mormon was the (Jewish) servant of Laban who escaped Jerusalem and joined Lehi's group. I would be unsurprised to learn that many or most of these Zoramites were of largely non-Nephite descent. They may have originated primarily from the "Mulekites", whose Hebrew language had become "corrupted" (which in context appears to mean "it wasn't Hebrew any more"). Thus, the term "rameumptom" may very likely have had a completely non-Hebrew origin.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Vort

[Vanhin]

Wow Vanhin that's a tough one. It looks like a compound term to me. If I were to guess a triple-root word I'd guess this:

רמ - ram - exalted

ומפ - u'mef - and leading

תם - faultless/complete

If this is a triple-root word, it could mean something like "that which is faultless and exalted to lead". But I'm guessing a little context could be of help here. Is this a military or government title of some kind?

That's pretty good. Here it is in context:

8 Now the Zoramites were dissenters from the Nephites; therefore they had had the word of God preached unto them.

9 But they had fallen into great errors, for they would not observe to keep the commandments of God, and his statutes, according to the law of Moses.

10 Neither would they observe the performances of the church, to continue in prayer and supplication to God daily, that they might not enter into temptation.

11 Yea, in fine, they did pervert the ways of the Lord in very many instances; therefore, for this cause, Alma and his brethren went into the land to preach the word unto them.

12 Now, when they had come into the land, behold, to their astonishment they found that the Zoramites had built synagogues, and that they did gather themselves together on one day of the week, which day they did call the day of the Lord; and they did worship after a manner which Alma and his brethren had never beheld;

13 For they had a place built up in the center of their synagogue, a place for standing, which was high above the head; and the top thereof would only admit one person.

14 Therefore, whosoever desired to worship must go forth and stand upon the top thereof, and stretch forth his hands towards heaven, and cry with a loud voice, saying:

15 Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that thou wast a spirit, and that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever.

16 Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.

17 But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever; and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God.

18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.

(Alma 31:8-18)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Dravin]

רמ - ram - exalted

ומפ - u'mef - and leading

תם - faultless/complete

If this is a triple-root word, it could mean something like "that which is faultless and exalted to lead". But I'm guessing a little context could be of help here. Is this a military or government title of some kind?

A raised stand or pulpit of some sort. Alma 31 Verse 21 contains the actual word (and Mormon's interpretation) but the preceding verses give it some additional context, mainly in its purpose.

[thekabalist]

Very interesting Vanhin and Dravin. It does shed some interesting light.

[rameumptom]

The term "rameumptom" was used by Nephites separatists who called themselves "Zoramites", named for their leader, Zoram. The original Zoram in the Book of Mormon was the (Jewish) servant of Laban who escaped Jerusalem and joined Lehi's group. I would be unsurprised to learn that many or most of these Zoramites were of largely non-Nephite descent. They may have originated primarily from the "Mulekites", whose Hebrew language had become "corrupted" (which in context appears to mean "it wasn't Hebrew any more"). Thus, the term "rameumptom" may very likely have had a completely non-Hebrew origin.

Are we certain that Zoram was a Jewish servant? He could easily have been a servant from another land or people. This would make Nephi freeing him seem all the more appealing. And the term Rameumptom is not necessarily Hebrew, as Mormon has to interpret its meaning for his readers - obviously it wasn't in the tongue he was accustomed to. BTW, Mormon states that it means "holy stand."

[Maya]

This is highly interesting! Thank you so much! I hope you (thekabbalist) dont mind as I translate the name translations in to Finnish and put them on the finnish LDS board. :)

[Zechariah]

I actually think thekabalist has a very good answer on this one. I will let him answer, because the post at CF where he explained this is gone.

He might be in a completely different timezone though. :)

Regards,

Vanhin

I just wandered over to CF for a look see and discovered that though that post/thread had been removed, it's now back again. Can't help wonder why, and also wonder how many more that they removed, they've put back. Curious thing.

Edit: Well now I only find 4 of his threads in the debate forum, so I'm confused again.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Zechariah

[Maya]

I just wandered over to CF for a look see and discovered that though that post/thread had been removed, it's now back again. Can't help wonder why, and also wonder how many more that they removed, they've put back. Curious thing.

I been there before when mormonism had its own place... where do they write now?

[Zechariah]

I been there before when mormonism had its own place... where do they write now?

They have the LDS sections under the unorthodox category, which is under the theology category.

[thekabalist]

This is highly interesting! Thank you so much! I hope you (thekabbalist) dont mind as I translate the name translations in to Finnish and put them on the finnish LDS board. :)

Not at all. Please be my guest.

[Maya]

Heh did not read that before .... thank you!

So now I get this interesting topic on topp again!

There seems to be some diffeerences in Hebrew and some words we have got... like Nauvo I think that was to be a beautifull city? In Finland there is a place called Nauvoo...:)

[Jenda]

thekabbalist, I am confused by how you derive meanings from words when you admittedly use transliteration from the English word contained in the Book of Mormon to get to a Jewish-sounding word. If the word/name was a direct translation of a Jewish word, I can understand just translating it back, but how do you assign a meaning to a phonetical Jewish word?

[Vanhin]

thekabbalist, I am confused by how you derive meanings from words when you admittedly use transliteration from the English word contained in the Book of Mormon to get to a Jewish-sounding word. If the word/name was a direct translation of a Jewish word, I can understand just translating it back, but how do you assign a meaning to a phonetical Jewish word?

Hey Jenda. :)

Regards,

Vanhin

[thekabalist]

thekabbalist, I am confused by how you derive meanings from words when you admittedly use transliteration from the English word contained in the Book of Mormon to get to a Jewish-sounding word. If the word/name was a direct translation of a Jewish word, I can understand just translating it back, but how do you assign a meaning to a phonetical Jewish word?

Jenda,

Weren't you the same person who asked me this in the other forum?

I don't see a reason to be confused when at the very first post I disclaimed that this can at many times be highly speculative. Anyway, I am assuming that the origin of the word is Hebrew and that the word has been transliterated into English. Then I am transliterating it back to Hebrew to see what the possible roots could be in Hebrew.

The idea is to show the possible meaning of such names and to prove that they could easily have come from Hebrew root-words. Does this mean that all the names mean precisely what I suppose? Of course not.

b' shalom!

[Maya]

The Book of Mormon is or has often been critizised for its "bad english", well IF it had been made to good English I think it had los ta lot of its clair Hebreaisms. It had to be a person who was not so very learned to be able to translate it to the form it probably was ment to be so one could see the Hebreaisms in it. A well learned person had tried to write perfect English!

[rameumptom]

Transliteration is actually common technique to find clues/ties between languages, etc.

The Book of Mormon has bad English grammar, but it transliterates well into Hebrew. For example, "it must needs be" is terrible English, but works fine in Hebrew. Such transliteration helps us to understand language origins and original meanings, etc.

[Jenda]

Jenda,

Weren't you the same person who asked me this in the other forum?

I don't see a reason to be confused when at the very first post I disclaimed that this can at many times be highly speculative. Anyway, I am assuming that the origin of the word is Hebrew and that the word has been transliterated into English. Then I am transliterating it back to Hebrew to see what the possible roots could be in Hebrew.

The idea is to show the possible meaning of such names and to prove that they could easily have come from Hebrew root-words. Does this mean that all the names mean precisely what I suppose? Of course not.

b' shalom!

Whether or not I, or anyone else, asked you this question before, it is still a valid question. If you transliterated my screen name into Hebrew and tried to assign a meaning to it, it would certainly not convey a valid meaning. As you said, it is all conjecture. How much of the conjecture is based on the textual story you are taking the name from?

[thekabalist]

Whether or not I, or anyone else, asked you this question before, it is still a valid question. If you transliterated my screen name into Hebrew and tried to assign a meaning to it, it would certainly not convey a valid meaning. As you said, it is all conjecture. How much of the conjecture is based on the textual story you are taking the name from?

Yes it is a valid question. And this is why it was answered in anticipation in the first post. But when you say you are confused about it when you asked the same question at the other forum and received an explanation then I have good reason to question your motives. If you did get an answer before why come here and make it look like you didn't know anything about the process? Or if the answer before wasn't satisfactory why not mention it in this post? I may be wrong but it seems to me that there is a hidden agenda here.

Still, back to the subject I have no reason to transliterate your name into Hebrew and try to apply meaning to it when your name is not of Hebrew origin. In fact I doubt that I could find any meaning at all. But in the case of the BoM there are certain transliterations which even match the context of the book. Still I acknowledge that it is speculative. I said so in the very first post and in boldface! But scholars do this all the time. I've never seen anyone question those who transliterate Jesus into Yehoshua or Yeshua or Yeshu and yet the truth is that nobody knows what the real name of Jesus was in Hebrew. Same goes for the other characters of the NT. And while it is speculative it is still appreciated by scholars so are you not using double standards because of your belief that the BoM is not of Hebrew origin?

b'shalom!

[pam]

Still I acknowledge that it is speculative. I said so in the very first post and in boldface

Thank you thekbalist. That is the point I was going to bring up. You did bring this up and I think many of us understand this. Yet knowing this it is still highly interesting to see how many of the names and phrases appear to be pretty close to our reading and understanding of the Book of Mormon. In fact I have found many of your perspectives have opened my eyes and given me a greater understanding of my reading. Now the awesome part; it makes sense.

Edited December 11, 2009 by pam

[Vanhin]

Whether or not I, or anyone else, asked you this question before, it is still a valid question.

Well, yes, but whether it was asked before matters if it was already answered before. Unlike the last inhospitable place, where this was asked, this particular forum is not a debate forum. You are welcome to discuss these things, but just keep that in mind. We will take appropriate action if there is even a hint of harassment towards our distinguished guest.

See, here we believe whole heartedly that the Book of Mormon is true, and that it is an ancient Hebrew record of God's dealings in ancient America. So, we are not surprised, when proper names appear to be Hebrew or Semitic, at the very least. Thekabalist has adequately explained how he derives at his interpretations, and also admits that they are highly speculative. We are okay with that.

It's still pretty interesting, wouldn't you say?

Take Abinadi, for example. When it was first offered for him to tell us the meaning, Pam accidental misspelled the name as "Abinidai" (see post #4). There was no way for thekabalist to look up the name in the Book of Mormon and find out what happened to him, because that's not how it is spelled. Yet here is his answer.

Abinidai - אבינידה - Abi/Avi-Nidah - quite literally, my father has been banished/secluded.

(Note that in Hebrew the letter ב can sound like a "b" or like a "v".)

Someone named like that is bound to suffer persecution. Does history confirm this?

If you know any thing about Abinadi, you will at least be impressed at the fact that his name suggests that he was persecuted. He was in fact burned to death for his prophecies.

Regards,

Vanhin