Hebrew names in the BoM

[Vanhin]

Don't you think giving me the benefit of the doubt was something you should have done earlier? To say now that you are giving me the benefit of the doubt basically means that you still think I am his enemy out to discredit him, but are willing to entertain the thought that maybe it isn't so. If I've misunderstood you, I apologise.

Well, yeah, but even thekabalist perceived "hostility" in your remarks. We mistakingly took them not to mean you were attacking him personally, but his credibility as someone familiar with ancient Judaism and Hebrew. Then it appeared that where ever he posted, you were there to challenge him and his "Kabbalism", or the Zohar. To us it appeared that you came here to discredit him. We had already had others follow him here from christianforums.com just to do that very thing. So, we were just trying to look out for our friend.

But yes, it's a place to start. I am personally giving you the benefit of the doubt, because I have participated in other conversations with you and because of this conversation, I am starting to think you are alright. Plus my brothers remarks above (Finrock) made me rethink and go back and read some of your posts with a different outlook.

My point is that someone with a Jewish background and upbringing, especially ones who have gone to a yeshiva, should understand that disagreement over a position held by the person is not an attack on the person himself. Never did I say that all Jews like to argue, or are thick-skinned. It just baffles me that someone with his background would immediately jump to the wrong conclusion about the intentions of someone with a similar background. Is that any clearer? And again, never did I claim that he is not Jewish, from his very writing style it is quite clear that he is Jewish.

Thanks. That's kind of what I thought you were saying. Instead of what I said, I should have simply said, "Not all Jews are alike. You of all people should know that."

Plus you have to understand that many drama's had already happened before you came here, and thekabalist was pretty much done with trying to be friends with Mormons. That is one of the reasons why we made this forum (and it's rules), and practically begged him to come back and continue his commentary.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

And if thekabalist does consider me unwelcome, let him tell me so. I will leave I won't speak to him again, but it would be nice if he tells me just why.

I wish he would come back and say something.

Personally, I think he can handle himself better than he thinks he can, because he's pretty smart about this stuff. You should have seen him on CF when he making a case for an unorthodox Jewish understanding of the Creation, and all the "experts' came out of the woodworks in opposition.

That entire thread has been deleted or I would link to it. I just did a search, but here's the stub. The Beginning of Creation (in Ancient Hebrew) - Christian Forums

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited January 22, 2010 by Vanhin

[KerryShirts]

Hey Kabalist......GET BACK HERE AND TALK TO US! I am truly enjoying your posts, even though I may have questions, and perhaps disagree with you, this all is very fun to read and very instructive. Don't quit.....

[thekabalist]

It is not even modern Hebrew! A teacher in modern Hebrew is moreh for a male, morah for a female, with the accent of both on the last syllable.

Even Yemenite Aramaic is mori (because of the dagesh) not mor.

Hi volgadon (and others who have asked this)

When I posted about "mor" being a possible Hebrew root I knew that I was going to get some criticism. First of all let me be the first to admit that this word is of Aramaic influence.

Now is it too early in time for it to be able to apply to Nephi and his band? Not at all.

The mountain of our Holy Fathers is called מוריה which is actually a compound expression that can be divided in two words: מורי יה (Mori Y-ah) which literally means "My master is Y-ah". Now the word מורה indeed comes from the Aramaic מר (mar or even mor depending on the dialect of Aramaic) which means master. Moreh later became teacher in a more interpretative use of the word just like in English you could call a teacher "master" but the word "master" originally has a different meaning.

Even if Moriah meant something else we still have prophet Isaiah making use of the word "moreh" way before Nephi and his band left the land:

"Although the Lord has given you bread of privation and water of oppression, He, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher." (Isaiah 30:20)

The word used for teacher above is the word "moreh" (actually moreicha because it's "your teacher") so this proves that the word was incorporated into Hebrew much earlier than the Galut.

It is a mistake to think that Aramaic only influenced Hebrew after the Galut (exile) because even before that there was commerce and there were migrations and contact with people who had already been using Aramaic for ages. Especially in the times of king Solomon blessed be his holy memory.

I hope this clarifies where I'm coming from.

As for the concept volgadon mentions in literal terms it means "disagreement for the sake of heaven" which is a Jewish concept that controversies are a means to achieve a higher spiritual path. In practical terms it means: "Let's beat each other up but it'll all end up with us eating tcholent and having lechayim cause we're brothers". :) (just kidding)

b'shalom!

[volgadon]

Welcome back. Actually, what I wrote was in reply to a website Vanhin had found, where the wrong roots or such were given for teacher.

Moreh is actualy Hebrew, not Aramaic, and comes from yod-reish-heh, to teach or to instruct. Not to be confused with yod-reish-heh for casting (and shooting) or for drinking.

It really is not the same word as mar, maran or moroni.

There are some rare Aramaic influences pre-galut, but I did qualify my statement.

Tcholent is potent stuff. Chili has nothing on it. =)

[thekabalist]

Welcome back. Actually, what I wrote was in reply to a website Vanhin had found, where the wrong roots or such were given for teacher.

Moreh is actualy Hebrew, not Aramaic, and comes from yod-reish-heh, to teach or to instruct. Not to be confused with yod-reish-heh for casting (and shooting) or for drinking.

It really is not the same word as mar, maran or moroni.

There are some rare Aramaic influences pre-galut, but I did qualify my statement.

Tcholent is potent stuff. Chili has nothing on it. =)

Hello my friend

Can you mizrachim folks really handle tcholent and lechayim altogether? It's not for the weak of stomach you know.

I wouldn't dismiss the connection between "moreh" and "mar/mor" so quickly. Hebrew and Aramaic have influenced each other a great deal and let us not forget that in biblical times a teacher was a master. They could even physically punish their students. I will however grant that it is possible that Hebrew influenced Aramaic on this one and not the other way around in this case as you are right about the root meaning teaching. Especially because Aramaic doesn't have many words in connection with the root 'mar' so yes it's possible indeed. However, you say not to be confused with casting and shooting but actually they are one and the same in origin both deriving from "pointing" into a direction. Anyway the main point is that this root can be found in ancient times influencing words like "Moriah" though some say that "mor" would be myrrh but that wasn't brought to that region until much later so much as I like MDB's song which says "al shem hamor hatov" it's rather unlikely such is the reason for the name. :)

b'shalom!

[Vanhin]

Welcome back thekabalist.

Vanhin

[volgadon]

Hello my friend

Can you mizrachim folks really handle tcholent and lechayim altogether? It's not for the weak of stomach you know.

It is a feat of strength and endurance.....

I wouldn't dismiss the connection between "moreh" and "mar/mor" so quickly. Hebrew and Aramaic have influenced each other a great deal and let us not forget that in biblical times a teacher was a master. They could even physically punish their students.

Actually, we don't really know much about education in the pre-exilic period. Most of what we do know comes from after the Second Temple.

Some of it was probably similar, but I really couldn't say what.

I will however grant that it is possible that Hebrew influenced Aramaic on this one and not the other way around in this case as you are right about the root meaning teaching. Especially because Aramaic doesn't have many words in connection with the root 'mar' so yes it's possible indeed. However, you say not to be confused with casting and shooting but actually they are one and the same in origin both deriving from "pointing" into a direction.

Perhaps one and the same in origin, but even in the Bible have vastly different meanings. The Lord cast Pharaoh's host into the sea, not taught them there.

Perhaps mar much later underwent a transformation like rabbi, into a teacher and expounder of the law, but that results from a developement of the honorific, the respect due a sage.

Anyway the main point is that this root can be found in ancient times influencing words like "Moriah" though some say that "mor" would be myrrh but that wasn't brought to that region until much later so much as I like MDB's song which says "al shem hamor hatov" it's rather unlikely such is the reason for the name. :)

b'shalom!

I don't think it would be myrrh, though that was known at least in Exodus, probably earlier.

Not sure what the etymology for Moriah is. Traditionally it seems to have been understood as seeing, but I'm not sure about that.

[KerryShirts]

Welcome back Kabalist. I have lots to post, but lots to do first, so I am kinda in the background for the moment.

[Blackmarch]

Yes it does. He was put to death by fire.

and being imprisoned before that.

[JosephVelder]

Is thekabalist still around? i was truly enjoying this thread and have been reading it word for word now for 20 pages...how does it end?!?!? how does it end!?!?!

[Javajot]

thekabalist...

if you are still here I have a name to request:

Mahonri Moriancumer

[Walrus78]

Fun posts...enlightening...faith promoting...thanks so much for your work!

[Walrus78]

Interesting, I was not aware of that -- another parallel with our religions.

Thank you so much for coming here and sharing all of this infomation!!

My given name is Isaac, which in Hebrew means, "the one who laughs" or "laughter"...I always was a cheerful kid, easily entreated, easy to smile...I always tripped out how closely my name matched my character. My father named me Isaac at the sight of my big brown eyes (Eye-sac)...I won't condemn his manner of interpretation..i love my name!

[Walrus78]

It is a feat of strength and endurance.....

Actually, we don't really know much about education in the pre-exilic period. Most of what we do know comes from after the Second Temple.

Some of it was probably similar, but I really couldn't say what.

Perhaps one and the same in origin, but even in the Bible have vastly different meanings. The Lord cast Pharaoh's host into the sea, not taught them there.

Perhaps mar much later underwent a transformation like rabbi, into a teacher and expounder of the law, but that results from a developement of the honorific, the respect due a sage.

I don't think it would be myrrh, though that was known at least in Exodus, probably earlier.

Not sure what the etymology for Moriah is. Traditionally it seems to have been understood as seeing, but I'm not sure about that.

Here's my assessment..we have two beautiful resources of ancient and modern Judaism and they're quibling over subjective material...I just don't see the point other than it stopped both of you from commenting. What happened to the increase of knowledge through discussion? Your deadlock mentality...on both ends..ceased discussion and learning.

[pam]

I just don't see the point other than it stopped both of you from commenting.

Before you post such comments you should know the REAL reason why the discussion stopped. Edited June 1, 2010 by pam

[Walrus78]

I apologize..I am only commenting on what I read..I ought not be held accountable for deleted posts or information unavailable to me. Though I ought not be so pessimistic. That I can work on :)

[volgadon]

What happened to the increase of knowledge through discussion?

Listen to Pam. OTOH, I keep getting attacked for having a different opinion.

[volgadon]

I apologize..I am only commenting on what I read..I ought not be held accountable for deleted posts or information unavailable to me. Though I ought not be so pessimistic. That I can work on :)

You also ought to give others the benefit of the doubt.

[pam]

Just an FYI..One member of the discussion is in extremely poor health and unable to post. That's why the discussion stopped.

[volgadon]

Would you mind making a separate post with a sticky? That was the 2nd person in as many weeks blaming me for it.

[Walrus78]

Just an FYI..One member of the discussion is in extremely poor health and unable to post. That's why the discussion stopped.

How very unfortunate..he shall be in my prayers

[Walrus78]

Would you mind making a separate post with a sticky? That was the 2nd person in as many weeks blaming me for it.

idk...the discussion had its relevance...I'm coming from someone who has engaged in wonderful conversations on, for the sake of comparison, a necklace, that stagnates after focus concentrates on two different facets of a gem, when the topic is of a greater scope..the necklace. Important to appraise down to the facet...but burdensome to one who is a layman.

Important to recognize alternative values, or definitions and it IS appreciated. Just, I've been mired in conversations revolving around a subtopic (which we actually both agree on) that we choose to express differently.

[Therauh]

I really enjoyed reading this...Thanks all who took their time to offer their input.Things take on such a different light when the meaning behind a word is explained.I hope this will continue some time.

[Reform_Mormon]

Nephi - Could it come from נפיל "Nephil"? It means giant or very tall in Hebrew.

I thought נפיל would be hiphil of נפל ("to fall"), hence would be "the fallen one", "he that is fallen" (hence נפילים in Gen. 6)