sons of perdition


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Yesterday this missionary and I went to my friend's house, she is investigating the church, and they were teaching her about the kingdoms, degrees of glory, and my friend asked the missionary where all the bad people go so he answered to the Telestial Kingdom, and she said if there was another thing like hell, so I though "Oh she's talking about sons of perdition" and so I said it, but the elder gave me a look like saying "shhhhhhhhhh" I tried to explain myself and he gave me another look now almost saying -- shut up like I was messing up this conversation and he seemed uncomfortable and said oh nooo, that's something else. and changed the subject, my friend noticed this and she asked me later why the elder didnt wanna talk about it, I said I dont know.

Are there any doctrinal issues or something that missionaries are not supposed to talk to?

cause I talked to my friend about proxy baptisms because she had a dream of this baptismal font shaped in a pentagon like figure and stuff so I told her, but now Im afraid these are some of the "forbbiden" aspects of the missionaries talks...

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Please don't get upset with the missionaries. Remember they are still young and learning much of the gospel themselves. They have learned certain discussions to teach to the people and have set things per lesson to teach. I'm sure they want to get some of those basics taught before throwing other things out there.

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Well, did you ask the Elder afterwards about it? I would have.

There is nothing "forbidden" other than certain aspects of temple worship and in that case they are sacred and that is something different.

The only other scenerio that would merit a reaction like this out of the missionary ( not that I see any evidence of this) is that the spirit sometimes directs conversations to the needs and readiness of the individual. I think sometimes its unwise to dump the entire mormon puzzle onto someone. God teaches us line upon line and the spirit works this way with investigators. And since the spirit is the real teacher anyway, it would be important to have the self discipline to go where it leads.

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Ditto with Bmy_ and Pam! My first thought was that at times, or perhaps I should say often, when the conversation goes towards discussing the destroyer and those who have been caught in his snares, the spirit can leave the room and you loose the feeling of the spirit and the inspiration you have been following.
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Ditto with Bmy_ and Pam! My first thought was that at times, or perhaps I should say often, when the conversation goes towards discussing the destroyer and those who have been caught in his snares, the spirit can leave the room and you loose the feeling of the spirit and the inspiration you have been following.

With all respect for your view, God tells us who our enemy is. The scriptures discuss it and my own personal experience is that the spirit follows truth no matter what it is. The spirit leaves when it is offended. How can discussing truth offend? And how is talking about the son of perdition basics be seen as dark? The spirit teaches things as they really are.

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Yesterday this missionary and I went to my friend's house, she is investigating the church, and they were teaching her about the kingdoms, degrees of glory, and my friend asked the missionary where all the bad people go so he answered to the Telestial Kingdom, and she said if there was another thing like hell, so I though "Oh she's talking about sons of perdition" and so I said it, but the elder gave me a look like saying "shhhhhhhhhh" I tried to explain myself and he gave me another look now almost saying -- shut up like I was messing up this conversation and he seemed uncomfortable and said oh nooo, that's something else. and changed the subject, my friend noticed this and she asked me later why the elder didnt wanna talk about it, I said I dont know.

Are there any doctrinal issues or something that missionaries are not supposed to talk to?

cause I talked to my friend about proxy baptisms because she had a dream of this baptismal font shaped in a pentagon like figure and stuff so I told her, but now Im afraid these are some of the "forbbiden" aspects of the missionaries talks...

Reaching the level of Perdition in this life is not that simple as most people think. Most of those who are considered 'bad' as Moksha pointed out will end up in the Telestial glory.

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One common misconception some people have about apostates(people who leave the Church), is that they are Sons of Perdition. This is often perpetuated in anti-Mormon material to give people the impression that we have something in place to keep people from willfully leaving the Church - something we scare them with. Not being willing to talk about that, or clear this topic up is not helpful in my opinion. I know it is not a topic that is easily understood, or explained to non-members, because, as Hemi explained, it's not just being "bad" that gets you there.

You basically have to have received the New and Everlasting Covenant, been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise (which means to have your calling and election made sure), kill or be willing to kill innocent blood, and/or agree with those who crucified the Lord or be willing to crucify Him again if you could. That is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, because you sin against the greater knowledge. You reject the Atonement of Christ after having known it - after being "saved". (see D&C 132)

But there is considerable difficulty in explaining all this properly to those new to the faith, in a missionary setting, where they might not even have a basic understanding of the restored gospel.

I think that simply saying, those who blasphemy against the Holy Ghost which is the unpardonable sin, will go to Outer Darkness, which is not a kingdom of glory. But I wouldn't ignore the topic if it came up.

Preach My Gospel teaches the missionaries to be more dynamic, and they don't have "set discussions", like in the past. They do have a set message of the orthodox doctrines of the Church, that the convert has to be taught and understand inorder for him to qualify for baptism, so the missionaries just like to stick to that.

Regards,

Vanhin

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Missionaries do not normally talk about "sons of perdition" because it's unimportant doctrine for those investigating the gospel. The vast bulk of the human family will dwell in a kingdom of glory, even the "bad" people. Why introduce a doctrine that applies to only a small portion of people and which is almost sure to raise more questions than it answers? There is plenty of time in a person's life to delve into the mysteries of eternal damnation, if one is so inclined. Introductory gospel lessons are not the time for that.

It is the missionaries' job to teach the investigators. It is your job to support the missionaries' efforts. If the missionaries did not want to discuss the doctrine of eternal damnation among the sons of perdition, it was your duty to support them in that, not to force the issue. Next time, you would be better served in allowing the missionaries to teach as they see fit.

Now, if the missionaries simply did not know the answer to a question, that might be a different thing. In that case, it's probably appropriate to suggest the answer. But if, as you say, the missionary was trying to steer the conversation another direction, then he's the driver and you should let him drive.

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I think Vort's advice is sage, but in it is another misconception; this time that members have. It would be an awful waste of missionary force, and priesthood authority, if our responsibility to teach was confined to just two years when you are a missionary. The most important thing we can do in this life is to teach the Gospel, whether you are a missionary or not. They are not the only teachers, even of non-members.

However, the teaching and baptizing of converts happens under the direction of the full-time mission president and his missionaries. This means, no matter what, they must qualify the convert for baptism, before they can be baptized. However, don't be fooled into thinking that you cannot teach. When the Spirit moves within you, open your mouth.

We teach all the time, in word and in deed, to our non-member friends, until they are "converts", and up to that point, you are one of their primary teachers. Consider what Elder Bednar said about the missionary responsibilities of priesthood holders, for instance:

All of us who have received the holy priesthood bear the sacred obligation to bless the nations and families of the earth by proclaiming the gospel and inviting all to receive by proper authority the ordinances of salvation. Many of us have served as full-time missionaries, some of us presently are serving as full-time missionaries, and all of us now are serving and will continue to serve as lifelong missionaries. We are missionaries every day in our families, in our schools, in our places of employment, and in our communities. Regardless of our age, experience, or station in life, we are all missionaries.

Proclaiming the gospel is not an activity in which we periodically and temporarily engage. And our labors as missionaries certainly are not confined to the short period of time devoted to full-time missionary service in our youth or in our mature years. Rather, the obligation to proclaim the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is inherent in the oath and covenant of the priesthood into which we enter. Missionary work essentially is a priesthood responsibility, and all of us who hold the priesthood are the Lord’s authorized servants on the earth and are missionaries at all times and in all places—and we always will be. Our very identity as holders of the priesthood and the seed of Abraham is in large measure defined by the responsibility to proclaim the gospel. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - Becoming a Missionary)

So, if the missionaries have authority to teach, ask yourself this question - who sets them apart? Who's responsibility is missionary work? This should be a revelation to you if you ever thought otherwise. Teach, preach, expound, and exhort, to everyone, inviting everyone to come unto Christ!

Regards,

Vanhin

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I think its just such an ambiguous topic. The Church's doctrine concerning it is not very clear, and we have various leaders offering different opinions concerning it, that it gets very confusing. Best not to confuse investigators too much, if we don't have to.

For example, Brigham taught that the spirits in Perdition dissolved back into raw 'intelligence'. Stuff like that.

Also, as Hemi said, you seriously have to WORK at becoming a SoP in this life. It's not so hard for pre-mortals, all they have to do is to keep choosing not to come to mortality (Malkuth) and *bingo* -- they are SoP. But in the world of Asiya it is very different.

(Asiya and Malkuth for the benefit of those discussing things with thekabalist)

HiJolly

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Missionaries do not normally talk about "sons of perdition" because it's unimportant doctrine for those investigating the gospel. The vast bulk of the human family will dwell in a kingdom of glory, even the "bad" people. Why introduce a doctrine that applies to only a small portion of people and which is almost sure to raise more questions than it answers? There is plenty of time in a person's life to delve into the mysteries of eternal damnation, if one is so inclined. Introductory gospel lessons are not the time for that.

It is the missionaries' job to teach the investigators. It is your job to support the missionaries' efforts. If the missionaries did not want to discuss the doctrine of eternal damnation among the sons of perdition, it was your duty to support them in that, not to force the issue. Next time, you would be better served in allowing the missionaries to teach as they see fit.

Now, if the missionaries simply did not know the answer to a question, that might be a different thing. In that case, it's probably appropriate to suggest the answer. But if, as you say, the missionary was trying to steer the conversation another direction, then he's the driver and you should let him drive.

well, honestly I think I was doing my job, I gave them the reference to my friend, in other case I would just go and try to teach her my way.

It's only that it puzzled me that the missionary seem soooooo uncomfortable, and my friend asked in different way the question, clearly she meant that if there was another place where really evil people go, since the degrees of glory, even the telestial has the privilege to have the holy ghost. I know that in order to become son of perdition one person must fight against God knowing is true and stuff like this.

then I thought that the elder didn't get my friend, so I willingly to SUPPORT him added my comment but when I saw his reaction I didnt try anymore to discuss this thing, but after he left my friend asked me "hey.. why didnt he wanna tell me about that thing u said?

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Most temple baptismal fonts I've seen are round or octagonal.

yeah, yeah , my point wasn't to be exact about the dream or the font, that's why I said pentagon LIKE .. hexagon, octagon, etc. look alike, but due the fact that my friend told me about the dream, where she described a scenario so similar to the temple made me think if that was what i was supposed to talk to her about, and I had the impression that I had to, since a long time ago, when a member of her family died, it's a long story

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