What a curelom might be


thekabalist
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OK guys I was looking at the name curelom which I found is a mysterious animal name.

Looking at the etymology I propose the following:

קו - Cu (front)

רעלים - ra'elim (poisons)

Cura'elim could easily become "curelom" which would mean "poisonous front" or more literally "poisons in the front".

My understanding is that this probably refers to an animal that was believed to have poisonous horns.

Now consider this: if we are talking about an animal that had very sharp horns it's possible that those who were wounded by them could die of infection because the horns could go deep in the flesh. That could very well lead people to believe that their horns were poisonous.

It is equally possible to be talking about bees or any other kind of poisonous animal. While the etymological study isn't sufficient to tell us what a curelom might be it certainly shows how the word could very easily be of semitic origin.

b'shalom!

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Hmmm... This is an interesting assessment. The curelom is mentioned in Ether 9:19 as a Jaredite animal. I don't know if the word "curelom" is supposed to be a Jaredite word or a Nephite word. Judging by Moroni's assertion that the curelom was "useful unto man", I'm guessing "curelom" was the Nephite translation of the Jaredite word to describe an animal that both cultures utilized.

I don't think it would be a bee of any sort, since Ether 2:3 mentions a "honey bee" and calls it "deseret". However, I was thinking that perhaps- if your guess that curelom means "poisons in the front" is accurate- a curelom is a paper wasp, used for writing material. If this is the case, however, I don't know why "curelom" wouldn't be rendered "wasp" when Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon.

Cureloms and cumoms have always piqued my interest. Thanks for the assessment!

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Remember that the writings of Ether occurred shortly after the Tower of Babel. The words you're scrutinizing wouldn't be of Hebraic origin. The translation that Mormon gave would be, but not the proper terms/names/nouns that Ether utilizes.

I always thought these were beasts of burden; or maybe edible. Mmmmm! Cureloms! :D

. . . elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms. Ether 9:19

Cheers

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What prevents them from being semitic or even Hebrew? Jewish tradition states that Hebrew was the language of creation. :)

Remember that the writings of Ether occurred shortly after the Tower of Babel. The words you're scrutinizing wouldn't be of Hebraic origin. The translation that Mormon gave would be, but not the proper terms/names/nouns that Ether utilizes.

I always thought these were beasts of burden; or maybe edible. Mmmmm! Cureloms! :D

Cheers

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I take back my earlier post - the writings of Ether were hundreds, if not thousands of years after the tower of Babel. Even if it were Hebrew, it would have been significantly altered/morphed after so much time (from Shakespear to today).

Which Jared came forth with his brother and their families, with some others and their families, from the great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, and swore in his wrath that they should be scattered upon all the face of the earth; and according to the word of the Lord the people were scattered. Ether 1:33

Also remember that regardless of the language of creation, the languages were confounded at Babel. It's unlikely that given the confounding, the physical and temporal isolation between the Jaredites and Jews, and the language drift, that the etymology would be Hebrew.

Can you tell, I'm not giving up this point?? :gnash: No, it's mine it tell you, ALL MINE!!! BUWWHHHAAAHHHAA! :wacko:

Sorry!

Cheers ^_^

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I thought a little about this earlier. We know that the language was confounded after the Tower of Babel (I assume it was still the Adamic language being spoken), but there's no record of the Adamic language not being restored. Perhaps it or a similar language was retaught to Abraham or one of his ancestors, and over time became the Hebrew language we know today.

If that is the case, we can assume that the Jaredites spoke the Adamic language (even if it was altered a little by time). If the Adamic language does resemble the Hebrew language, then, we can assume that we'd find connections between ancient (and modern) Hebrew and the Jaredite language.

This is, of course, founded on speculation that requires more than one giant leap of faith. But, it is fun to speculate sometimes. :D

btw thekabalist, do you know the origin of which Hebrew tradition states that Hebrew was the language of creation? Well... What I mean is, do you know the oldest record that verifies this tradition, or is it wholly oral? I think it's an interesting concept.

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Remember that the writings of Ether occurred shortly after the Tower of Babel. The words you're scrutinizing wouldn't be of Hebraic origin. The translation that Mormon gave would be, but not the proper terms/names/nouns that Ether utilizes.

I always thought these were beasts of burden; or maybe edible. Mmmmm! Cureloms! :D

Cheers

I would like a Cummom jacket, they are so beautiful and some Curelomstew with cummom bits please... :P

sorry the temptation was bigger than my ability to resist....:P

Someone in an othre forum just said that ... something like, that hebrew was a dead language, no one used it, before it was woken again in 1800 century...??? Sounds weird to me. The person says he is Jewish. He also said that because of this it BoM can not have been written in hebrew... Ofcourse I corrected that BoM was written in Reformed Egypt and now he is at it again asking me to "tell him" about that. I have answered him thousands of times to that before.:huh:

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I take back my earlier post - the writings of Ether were hundreds, if not thousands of years after the tower of Babel. Even if it were Hebrew, it would have been significantly altered/morphed after so much time (from Shakespear to today).

Hebrew for example has changed very little. Especially written Hebrew. ;)

Also remember that regardless of the language of creation, the languages were confounded at Babel. It's unlikely that given the confounding, the physical and temporal isolation between the Jaredites and Jews, and the language drift, that the etymology would be Hebrew.

And yet we have some Hebraisms that are pretty interesting. And remember that the Nephites were able to read the Jaredite records were they not? And these were Hebrew speaking people.

We can also consider as a possibility that the Nephite scribes were using Hebrew terms themselves just like it happens in the English Bible and BoM. The term "Christ" for example was most certainly not used among Hebrew speakers. :)

Can you tell, I'm not giving up this point?? :gnash: No, it's mine it tell you, ALL MINE!!! BUWWHHHAAAHHHAA! :wacko:

Sorry!

Cheers ^_^

LOL

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just not gonna stop speculating. There are a lot of semiticisms in the BoM and I think they reveal some interesting things. What are the odds that a "deseret" could in Hebrew be a "speedy flying insect" be just a coincidence?

b'shalom!

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(I assume it was still the Adamic language being spoken)

Your assumption has foundation:

President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972) taught that the Jaredites likely spoke in the language of Adam: “It is stated in the Book of Ether that Jared and his brother made the request of the Lord that their language be not changed at the time of the confusion of tongues at the Tower of Babel. Their request was granted, and they carried with them the speech of their fathers, the Adamic language, which was powerful even in its written form, so that the things Mahonri wrote ‘were mighty even . . . unto the overpowering of man to read them.’ That was the kind of language Adam had and this was the language with which Enoch was able to accomplish his mighty work” (The Way to Perfection [1970], 69).

Cheers

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You know, as a scientist, I find it interesting that there isn't (as far as I'm aware) any archeological records of horses or elephants in the New World (I'm picking the ones we can identify).

Not that this shakes my testimony; I'll just be excited when science catches up (in a very small, insignificant way) to religious history.

Thanks for the great thread, thekabilist!

Cheers

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LOL

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just not gonna stop speculating.

I'm glad we can have a fun discussion. It certainly clarifies my reasoning.

And remember that the Nephites were able to read the Jaredite records were they not? And these were Hebrew speaking people.

We can also consider as a possibility that the Nephite scribes were using Hebrew terms themselves just like it happens in the English Bible and BoM. The term "Christ" for example was most certainly not used among Hebrew speakers. :)

I'm unsure if the Nephites were Hebrew speaking - they were not Jews (they were from the tribe of Joseph, Manassah). I'm not sure their language was Hebrew, as Nephi opens the Book of Mormon with the statement:

2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians 1Ne. 1:2

And finally, the plates of the Jaredites were translated in much the same way as Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon - thru the gift and power of God.

The term Christ did make it into the Book of Mormon before He was born (see 2 Ne. 10:3). :D

However, I will concede that these terms could still be Hebrew in origin - although I've got to run, so I'll finish my thought later. Sorry!!

Cheers

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I'm glad we can have a fun discussion. It certainly clarifies my reasoning.

I'm unsure if the Nephites were Hebrew speaking - they were not Jews (they were from the tribe of Joseph, Manassah). I'm not sure their language was Hebrew, as Nephi opens the Book of Mormon with the statement:

And finally, the plates of the Jaredites were translated in much the same way as Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon - thru the gift and power of God.

The term Christ did make it into the Book of Mormon before He was born (see 2 Ne. 10:3). :D

However, I will concede that these terms could still be Hebrew in origin - although I've got to run, so I'll finish my thought later. Sorry!!

Cheers

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I am quite certain that the Nephites were Hebrew speaking. The Brass Plates were in Hebrew. Only the keepers of the records knew the system of writing they called "reformed Egyptian" which is what Nephi was referring to (he started the trend). It appears that they were much more familiar with Hebrew, however, even in Moroni's day. Consider the following passages:

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

34 But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof. (Mormon 9:32-34)

Besides, not just those of the house of Judah (including the greater part of Benjamin) would know Hebrew, the house of Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh included), and all of Israel would be familiar with Hebrew. Just saying. :)

The Book of Mormon is a Hebrew record, that was originally written in characters called "reformed Egyptian", and was translated into English by the gift and power of God, by Joseph Smith Jr.

Regards,

Vanhin

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And yet we have some Hebraisms that are pretty interesting. And remember that the Nephites were able to read the Jaredite records were they not? And these were Hebrew speaking people.

Yes but...

8 And they were lost in the wilderness for the space of many days, yet they were diligent, and found not the land of Zarahemla but returned to this land, having traveled in a land among many waters, having discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people who were as numerous as the hosts of Israel.

9 And for a testimony that the things that they had said are true they have brought twenty-four plates which are filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold.

10 And behold, also, they have brought breastplates, which are large, and they are of brass and of copper, and are perfectly sound.

11 And again, they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust; and there is no one in the land that is able to interpret the language or the engravings that are on the plates. Therefore I said unto thee: Canst thou translate?

12 And I say unto thee again: Knowest thou of any one that can translate? For I am desirous that these records should be translated into our language; for, perhaps, they will give us a knowledge of a remnant of the people who have been destroyed, from whence these records came; or, perhaps, they will give us a knowledge of this very people who have been destroyed; and I am desirous to know the cause of their destruction.

Nephites were asking for somebody to translate, which would indicate, in my mind at least, that it was not written in their tongue (Hebrew, at least as they spoke and read it), else translation would be unneeded. Ammon (who the question is addressed to) goes on to say there is somebody who can translate them via a gift from God.

I'm inclinded to think that as the Book of Ether is an abridgment that Moroni probably give it significant Hebrew character , possibly on purpose. Unless I'm mistaken things such as chiasmus aren't to make the text pretty, but to help facilitate learning and remembering, so it's possible that because of his his understanding of Hebrew literary devices and scripture he quite intetionally Hewbrewed it up. Additionally he may not have been working with the raw but with something already translated into Hebrew, so a Hebrew abridgment of a Hebrew translation of something written in X.

P.S. Makes me wonder what various texts through a Hebrew 'filter' would be like... *wonders off pondering*

Edited by Dravin
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Remember that the writings of Ether occurred shortly after the Tower of Babel. The words you're scrutinizing wouldn't be of Hebraic origin. The translation that Mormon gave would be, but not the proper terms/names/nouns that Ether utilizes.

I always thought these were beasts of burden; or maybe edible. Mmmmm! Cureloms! :D

Cheers

Same family of the Elphants.

And yes, there are findings of woolly mammoth type elephants found in the America. One was found in building site in Florida. Some are dredge out of the tar pit in the Los Angeles area. All of which can be found using Googles.

Edited by Hemidakota
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I'm inclinded to think that as the Book of Ether is an abridgment that Moroni probably give it significant Hebrew character , possibly on purpose. Unless I'm mistaken things such as chiasmus aren't to make the text pretty, but to help facilitate learning and remembering, so it's possible that because of his his understanding of Hebrew literary devices and scripture he quite intetionally Hewbrewed it up. Additionally he may not have been working with the raw but with something already translated into Hebrew, so a Hebrew abridgment of a Hebrew translation of something written in X.

P.S. Makes me wonder what various texts through a Hebrew 'filter' would be like... *wonders off pondering*

It is a very good theory. An alternative thought could be that it was written in a different alphabet. Historically we know that Hebrew has been written with different alphabets oftentimes which reflected the exiles.

b'shalom!

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An alternative thought could be that it was written in a different alphabet. Historically we know that Hebrew has been written with different alphabets oftentimes which reflected the exiles.

b'shalom!

Much like how one (well at least I) wouldn't expect to be able to turn over the golden plates (written in reformed egyptian) to somebody fluent in hebrew and expect them to be able to read it even though the underlying structure and conventions are hebrew? Kinda like writing in binary, my syntax would be english in character but undeciferable to one who doesn't know how to read binary.

Must confess I didn't think about that, good point.

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And yes, there are findings of woolly mammoth type elephants found in the America. One was found in building site in Florida. Some are dredge out of the tar pit in the Los Angeles area. All of which can be found using Googles.

Probably one would need some really thick googles to see through all that tar.

;)

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Much like how one (well at least I) wouldn't expect to be able to turn over the golden plates (written in reformed egyptian) to somebody fluent in hebrew and expect them to be able to read it even though the underlying structure and conventions are hebrew? Kinda like writing in binary, my syntax would be english in character but undeciferable to one who doesn't know how to read binary.

Must confess I didn't think about that, good point.

Dravin

It wouldn't be the first time. Hebrew has been written with different characters many times. Like with syro-phoenician alphabet. Still it preserves the same words and word meanings but it is uninteligible for those who don't know the alphabet. Aramaic is like that too. Not only do you have several Aramaic alphabets but also you can write Aramaic with the Hebrew alphabet.

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OK guys I was looking at the name curelom which I found is a mysterious animal name.

Looking at the etymology I propose the following:

קו - Cu (front)

רעלים - ra'elim (poisons)

Cura'elim could easily become "curelom" which would mean "poisonous front" or more literally "poisons in the front".

My understanding is that this probably refers to an animal that was believed to have poisonous horns.

Now consider this: if we are talking about an animal that had very sharp horns it's possible that those who were wounded by them could die of infection because the horns could go deep in the flesh. That could very well lead people to believe that their horns were poisonous.

It is equally possible to be talking about bees or any other kind of poisonous animal. While the etymological study isn't sufficient to tell us what a curelom might be it certainly shows how the word could very easily be of semitic origin.

b'shalom!

The problem with this interpolation, People of Jared never spoke or wrote in Hebrew. They still maintained what was left of the true divine language of Adam and Eve through Noah and his sons. I have some previous writings from the past I need to research of the meaning of this type of animal.

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