Tony Blair: Global Warming science doesn't need to be very accurate


Maxel
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From The Guardian:

Despite the leak of damaging emails from the University of East Anglia Blair said the need for action was as evident as ever. "It is said that the science around climate change is not as certain as its proponents allege. It doesn't need to be.

"What is beyond debate, is that there is a huge amount of scientific support for the view that the climate is changing and as a result of human activity. Therefore, given the seriousness of the consequences, we should act."

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So, at a conference that is supposed to lay the foundation to end the warming of the entire planet-- a plan that requires scientific consensus and support to make sure they take the correct measures, with the correct degree of severity-- the science isn't really that important?

I get what he's saying about the scientific support being "huge" that the climate is changing. However, it's the support for anthropogenic climate change that's important- and if that science isn't as "certain as its proponents allege", is there really a need to take drastic measures and rework the global economic and political infrastructure?

This call to action based on admittedly spurious data- 'act now; screw the reason!'- seems a remarkably fascist sentiment to me. It isn't helped by the shameless propoganda accompanying this conference.

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I know that I am suppose to look only at what good they are trying to accomplish, but I don't see how adding taxes too wealthy nations is going to fix a problem, that does or doesn't exist.

If you tried to sell me an investment with this much skewed data, you would be going to jail. But, because it is being forced upon us, by "benevolent social-scientist", we are suppose to applaud there efforts.

And never mind that the results of there efforts, can never be measured. If, or I should say when, global climate change still happens, as it always has, there will be no accountability for all the money spent.

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boyando, I think the point is to create as much hysteria among the masses as possible; to create the moral equivalent of war using social issues. If those in power can achieve this, the will of the people will be much easier to bend. War- and its 'moral equivalents'- have long been excuses to circumvent traditional political structure.

I think you bring up a good point, too, about the inability to effectively trace the effect global warming countermeasures would have. I'd wager that any long-term effect would require at least 10 years to measure- and the fate of the entire world could change in 10 years.

Since Obama came into office, we've had one crisis after another. The financial crisis has always loomed in the background, but specifically we've had the TARP and Stimulis Bill crises, the H1N1 crisis, the Healthcare crisis, the global warming crisis... Notice that the 'bad guys' in these crises are always either 'the system' (such as capitalism) or those preceding Obama in power (Bush). I guess the exception is the N1H1 crisis, which was apparantely never bad enough to warrant the hysteria it received.

Notice how Obama is still using the bank bailouts to try to manipulate the private sector- bailouts that not all the banks wanted or needed, but were forced to accept anyway. Now the banks are "in the taxpayers' debt" and now "owe" it to us to [enter whatever Obama wants here].

This has been your friendly neighborhood crazy conservative conspiracy nut...

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I don't think we should wait until a major catastrophe to change how we do things, as we are here to actually take care of our planet, and not destroy it. I'm certainly no tree-hugger or PETA nut, but the oil and other natural resources are capable of running out, and once they're gone, they're gone. I belong to the other PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals.

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I don't think we should wait until a major catastrophe to change how we do things, as we are here to actually take care of our planet, and not destroy it. I'm certainly no tree-hugger or PETA nut, but the oil and other natural resources are capable of running out, and once they're gone, they're gone.

I have no problem with people, companies, and societies behaving more eco-friendly. In fact, I applaud it.

My problem is with guber-national trends to trump science (real science, where debate is encouraged, not oppressed) and reason in favor of feel-good environmentalism. We face the very real potential of the governments of the world cutting in on the economic growth of the entire planet. My major concern is that this is an action to get the foot in the door for even more severe legislation- I also fear that an "end justifies the means" mentality (such as the one exhibited by Blair in his comment) is merely an excuse to "do whatever I want to NOW".

I belong to the other PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals.

I ate some beef today... Where can I sign up? :lol: Edited by Maxel
I ate beef. I don't hate it!
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I already have two threads dealing with Global Warming, so I didn't want to start another.

Britain's Daily Express lead with this article today. This list is from a dossier released by the European Foundation

100 Reasons why Climate Change is Natural: Some excerpts

1) There is “no real scientific proof” that the current warming is caused by the rise of greenhouse gases from man’s activity...

8) The IPCC theory is driven by just 60 scientists and favourable reviewers not the 4,000 usually cited...

18) Despite activist concerns over CO2 levels, CO2 is a minor greenhouse gas, unlike water vapour which is tied to climate concerns, and which we can’t even pretend to control

19) A petition by scientists trying to tell the world that the political and media portrayal of global warming is false was put forward in the Heidelberg Appeal in 1992. Today, more than 4,000 signatories, including 72 Nobel Prize winners, from 106 countries have signed it...

23) It is myth that receding glaciers are proof of global warming as glaciers have been receding and growing cyclically for many centuries ...

31) Despite activist concerns over CO2 levels, rising CO2 levels of some so-called “greenhouse gases” may be contributing to higher oxygen levels and global cooling, not warming...

35) It is a myth that computer models verify that CO2 increases will cause significant global warming because computer models can be made to “verify” anything...

37) One statement deleted from a UN report in 1996 stated that “none of the studies cited above has shown clear evidence that we can attribute the observed climate changes to increases in greenhouse gases”

38) The world “warmed” by 0.07 +/- 0.07 degrees C from 1999 to 2008, not the 0.20 degrees C expected by the IPCC...

40) Rising CO2 levels in the atmosphere can be shown not only to have a negligible effect on the Earth’s many ecosystems, but in some cases to be a positive help to many organisms

41) Researchers who compare and contrast climate change impact on civilizations found warm periods are beneficial to mankind and cold periods harmful...

47) In May of 2004, the Russian Academy of Sciences published a report concluding that the Kyoto Protocol has no scientific grounding at all.

48) The “Climate-gate” scandal pointed to a expensive public campaign of disinformation and the denigration of scientists who opposed the belief that CO2 emissions were causing climate change

... Enjoy, fellow anthropogenic-climate-change-scoffers.

UPDATE: In the name of fairness, I thought I'd include a link to New Scientist's article "debunking" the first 50 points of the list. I'm not sure what to think of this other article, though- in the comments section there seems to be a war about the efficacy of the article itself, and all sources (that I followed) supporting this article's claim are from New Scientist itself or Wikipedia.

Edited by Maxel
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Hey the issue is trendy, clouded by emotion, hyped up by politicians who want to be seen to be tackling this serious concern. Yes we do have a problem, yes the world is getting warmer. But the bigger problem is a capitalist system that sees the rich grow richer and the poor well who really cares eh? Rich bankers with huge bonus payments, while others starve. And the we all fight and argue over health care policy while others can get treatment because they cant afford it. Mean while the polar beers got nothing to float on no more

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Yes we do have a problem, yes the world is getting warmer. But the bigger problem is a capitalist system that sees the rich grow richer and the poor well who really cares eh?

The American capitalist system allows for the poor man to apply his talents and lift himself out of poverty. Many of the CEO's of the world's largest companies today started out poor.

There are those who abuse the system, yes. But that means abuses of the system are the problem- not the system itself.

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well the Guardian is a broadsheet so has more credibility than the Daily Express which is a tabloid and a bit of a right wing rag. There was a good interview/debate on BBC Radio 2 but must have been more than a week ago as its no longer in the archives.

The emails seem to concern a very small element of climate change science - Mike's Nature trick was just a way to present and interpret evidence which in itself was not seen as accurate, in effect the emails are discussing a scientific method of interpretation that was unproven. It does not cover the more observable tree rig, ice holes etc

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Well maxel what if you are not particularly well talented? There seems to be a very high proportion of people in the United States living below the poverty line as there are in my country and we both run the same system. It would seem if you are wealthy you can get away with a lot more than if you are poor. The wealthy have choice, the poor have a hole to try and dig themselves out of. If you know how to work the system then fine and well. I believe the a good way to measure society is how you treat those who are disadvantaged, the old, the widows, the children born into poverty. The United States has a very bad track record of how they treat their own people in need. I wonder if Mr Madoff was one of those poor people who dragged himself out of the pit of poverty to become that wonderful parasite who plundered his own. Remember enron, and the wonderful banking system that almost plunged the world into a depression. Captains of industry who make billions while robbing their fellow Americans and anyone else they can. And we think how great these people are? You are right Maxel it is the abuse of the system that is the problem. But what if the system is becoming totally corrupt, what do we do?

As for global warming, one or two volcanic eruptions in Indonesia and we'll be back to cooler weather.

The American capitalist system allows for the poor man to apply his talents and lift himself out of poverty. Many of the CEO's of the world's largest companies today started out poor.

There are those who abuse the system, yes. But that means abuses of the system are the problem- not the system itself.

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Well maxel what if you are not particularly well talented? There seems to be a very high proportion of people in the United States living below the poverty line as there are in my country and we both run the same system. It would seem if you are wealthy you can get away with a lot more than if you are poor. The wealthy have choice, the poor have a hole to try and dig themselves out of. If you know how to work the system then fine and well. I believe the a good way to measure society is how you treat those who are disadvantaged, the old, the widows, the children born into poverty. The United States has a very bad track record of how they treat their own people in need. I wonder if Mr Madoff was one of those poor people who dragged himself out of the pit of poverty to become that wonderful parasite who plundered his own. Remember enron, and the wonderful banking system that almost plunged the world into a depression. Captains of industry who make billions while robbing their fellow Americans and anyone else they can. And we think how great these people are? You are right Maxel it is the abuse of the system that is the problem. But what if the system is becoming totally corrupt, what do we do?

I beg your pardon, sir!

If you want to know how GOOD America treats their downtrodden - go to the Philippines. See the difference.

You wanna see how REAL poor people live? You have not seen poor until you've dug your heads out of the sands of your own fortune and actually SEE poor!

Grrr... this makes me mad. And I'm not even American. Geez.

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Well out of all the so called developed nations The good old US of A is near the bottom of the heap when it comes to relative poverty stats, Sure there are a lot of 3rd world countries where people is starving to death. But in terms of one of the most richest nations on earth there seems to be a great deal of disparity. I have a great deal of respect for the American people however, I lived there for 2 years, I also meet those who were struggling on the bottom of the heap. Hopefully Obama will get things moving in the right direction, he has his work cut out for him however

Makes you mad or not, that's just the way things are.

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Well out of all the so called developed nations The good old US of A is near the bottom of the heap when it comes to relative poverty stats, Sure there are a lot of 3rd world countries where people is starving to death. But in terms of one of the most richest nations on earth there seems to be a great deal of disparity. I have a great deal of respect for the American people however, I lived there for 2 years, I also meet those who were struggling on the bottom of the heap. Hopefully Obama will get things moving in the right direction, he has his work cut out for him however

Makes you mad or not, that's just the way things are.

And it makes me mad because you are so wrong and you won't even see it!

Here. Let me tell you about my previous boss (I work in Florida). He was a sports star when he graduated from high school. Married his high school sweetheart, got 3 kids by age 21. He didn't have a chance to go to college since he has the 3 kids to feed. Got hit by a drunk driver and became QUADriplegic. That's QUAD. Fortunately, he is an American. The great medical system was able to provide him with a quarter-circle movement on his right shoulder which made all the difference in the world to him. The government sent him to school to learn Computer Programming. The government gave him his own van. Anywhere in the US you need to go to - you can access by wheelchair. That includes climbing down the Grand Canyon. The guy graduates from a BS degree with honors, works as a big shot at Blue Cross, makes tons of money. He even drives his own van. QUADriplegic - look up the term.

My other boss? He is blind. He's not just my boss - he is the CIO. You invite him to a meeting, you gotta send an invitation to his dog as well.

You want me to go on?

Edited by anatess
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From The Guardian:

Despite the leak of damaging emails from the University of East Anglia Blair said the need for action was as evident as ever. "It is said that the science around climate change is not as certain as its proponents allege. It doesn't need to be.

"What is beyond debate, is that there is a huge amount of scientific support for the view that the climate is changing and as a result of human activity. Therefore, given the seriousness of the consequences, we should act."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, at a conference that is supposed to lay the foundation to end the warming of the entire planet-- a plan that requires scientific consensus and support to make sure they take the correct measures, with the correct degree of severity-- the science isn't really that important?

I get what he's saying about the scientific support being "huge" that the climate is changing. However, it's the support for anthropogenic climate change that's important- and if that science isn't as "certain as its proponents allege", is there really a need to take drastic measures and rework the global economic and political infrastructure?

This call to action based on admittedly spurious data- 'act now; screw the reason!'- seems a remarkably fascist sentiment to me. It isn't helped by the shameless propoganda accompanying this conference.

Kind of grayish area of science being stated here. Man cannot stop something that is required for the earth. :lol:

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Yip good things do happen in the US of A. For sports stars who are well ensured. What if he was living on the poorer side of town would he be treated in the same way. What if he had no insurance. Would everybody be rallying around to help him out? Yeah right. What about universal health care for the poor and the needy. My suggestion to you before you burst in to raptures about the virtues of the American health care system would be to rent out the DVD Sicko and get the other side of the story. Admittedly this is a bit dramatic and some of it maybe a bit hyped up but it gets its point across nicely. Don't feel that I am picking on the Americans and saying in isolation that they have a bit on the corrupt side, I think the world in general has bit of cleaning up to do. But don't grandstand about the mighty USA who can wage war in any part of the world it chooses but seems to neglect is poor and needy. Remember hurricane Katrina and how long it took Mr Bush to act to bring aid to his own country man. I rest my case

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Yip good things do happen in the US of A. For sports stars who are well ensured. What if he was living on the poorer side of town would he be treated in the same way. What if he had no insurance. Would everybody be rallying around to help him out? Yeah right. What about universal health care for the poor and the needy. My suggestion to you before you burst in to raptures about the virtues of the American health care system would be to rent out the DVD Sicko and get the other side of the story. Admittedly this is a bit dramatic and some of it maybe a bit hyped up but it gets its point across nicely. Don't feel that I am picking on the Americans and saying in isolation that they have a bit on the corrupt side, I think the world in general has bit of cleaning up to do. But don't grandstand about the mighty USA who can wage war in any part of the world it chooses but seems to neglect is poor and needy. Remember hurricane Katrina and how long it took Mr Bush to act to bring aid to his own country man. I rest my case

and you are from what perfect country????
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Yeah...true. I do believe the global thugs of 50, this includes some of our politicians who run our country were hand picked while selling their souls over lucre. We simply do not have the control to stop it but have the control to educate many as we can to save those precious souls who are ready and called by GOD.

How would you control the populist without having an uprising or civil war within? Cause a monetary collapse and blamed others when you are the source of the cause. Allow this situation get to a point of calling a marshal law and using the military to quell the riots, looting, and lawlessness. This will create a panic around the globe and leaving the poorer nations fall and leaving a door of opportunity to take control immediately by enticing them to join a new global financial model. In order to restore order, many of our rights will deteriorate and those states who opposed this will begin to look at this as an opportunity to jump ship. I can see Utah as the first one to do so.

IMF as a model beast with many bestial heads [richer nations controlling the destiny of the world] joined together to create a new type cashless and cardless monetary system where in order to buy or sell, it will require any person who wish to do so in receiving a special device that will be a commerce model of tomorrow. All of this is now practical and we are falling into a catch-22 when it does appear, do I accept this to maintain my job, support my family, to buy gasoline, a place to live, and to purchase food and clothing? It will be a choice for those in the church to choose it or not.

My two cents of what will occur….

Edited by Hemidakota
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Yip good things do happen in the US of A. For sports stars who are well ensured. What if he was living on the poorer side of town would he be treated in the same way. What if he had no insurance. Would everybody be rallying around to help him out? Yeah right. What about universal health care for the poor and the needy. My suggestion to you before you burst in to raptures about the virtues of the American health care system would be to rent out the DVD Sicko and get the other side of the story. Admittedly this is a bit dramatic and some of it maybe a bit hyped up but it gets its point across nicely. Don't feel that I am picking on the Americans and saying in isolation that they have a bit on the corrupt side, I think the world in general has bit of cleaning up to do. But don't grandstand about the mighty USA who can wage war in any part of the world it chooses but seems to neglect is poor and needy. Remember hurricane Katrina and how long it took Mr Bush to act to bring aid to his own country man. I rest my case

Sports stars??? A high-school footballer who ended up marrying the cheerleader and living a hand-to-mouth existence after having 3 kids before age 21? High-school quarterbacks are not sports STARS. You're showing prejudiced view here, buddy.

This is exactly what I'm saying. You see America and you immediately think Kobe Bryant - or Tiger Woods. Hello...

Neglect the poor and needy??? Here's newsflash for you we have this thing called WELFARE for the "poor", Disability Act for the "disabled", SS and Medicare for the elderly... public schools, Pell grants for college students, emergency rooms, heck, even Mexicans can have babies for free in California!

And here's another newsflash for you. Just because America do not have universal healthcare doesn't mean they don't take care of their poor! That's just ignorant Euro-trash talk!

AMERICANS help the poor and needy. They don't rely on the MR. BUSH or Mr. OBAMA for that matter to take care of their own! We have private people for that! LDS church, Red Cross, United Way, what have you... And, they have STATE government people for that too. FEDERAL people's job is to protect the entire country from foreign invasion... wage war, if necessary. STATE people take care of Katrina victims! And if you don't know the difference, MR. BUSH and MR. OBAMA are FEDERAL people. Heck, we get pummelled by giant Hurricanes bigger than Katrina in Florida all the time! You see anybody talking about it in England??? No - because it's no big news - because the STATE of FLORIDA is great at it! People get help and nobody blames the government for anything! But even with the duffus's that run Louisiana, let's see if you can have a Katrina anywhere else in the world and get as much help as what those Louisiana people got - WITHOUT AMERICA. I DARE YOU!

You know what I call people like you? CRABS. That's right - people who can't take care of themselves without their government handing them their daily sustenance. They see people rise to the top on their own merit and immediately climb on their backs to bring them back down into the bucket. Because, they just can't stand it that somebody can be better than themselves!

Turn off your CNN and your FOX... it's making you ignorant.

Edited by anatess
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deals_dog, I'd suggest not watching anything by Michael Moore (like Sicko). At all. He rants about the evils of capitalism and America while growing fat (figuratively...) on the proceeds of his endeavors.

He is the quintessential self-hating capitalist- and he spreads lies and disinformation faster than anyone else I know.

I know elsewhere you've posted that when you were in America, you saw people on the streets with guns "all the time". I don't know where you served, but that kind of lifestyle is found almost exclusively in the ghettos. America, as a whole, is much better than that.

You wouldn't figure that out, though, by watching Micahel Moore's tripe.

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Well palerider, I look forward to being de-horse manured, as long as you are an ethnic minority living on a minimum wage with out medical insurance with a family to support. living in a poorer neighborhood. Then you will have my full attention then you would be speaking with qualification. In New Zealand where I live we also have relative poverty and it is a problem. I didn't realize how much of a problem it was till I had to research it. Here I was middle class white New Zealander and not realizing how bad things were in my own neck of the woods, so I am not picking on American. What I am saying is for a country of great wealth power there seems to be a lot of people getting left behind. That seems to be the pattern of all capitalist countries. The communist obviously don't have the answers either. New Zealand who has a socialist model are struggling also. I would say that gospel of Jesus Christ has the cure but we are a very small voice in a very large crowd. So please don't be offended, I believe it is not only till we see ourselves as we really are that we can make things better. And if you are offended that's your choice.

As for the original discussion of global warming, well we have helped make our planet warmer no doubt. Can it be fixed, yeah but conditions won't change over night. Can world leaders from rich and poor nations come to any agreement? Yes as long as money is not the solution.

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