Literal or Allegorical

[Snow]

You're in a tough spot, Snow. Best of luck to you.

HiJolly

That's a fitting illustration to a key point made in this thread... that unless someone agrees with another's religious point of view, there is something wrong with them ("you're in a tough spot, Snow). Now I know that you simply meant it as one more insult but it's at the crux of acrimony between religious traditions... in the absence of some evidence, all you have is dogma and when one party thinks their dogma is superior to other dogmas and then that they are therefore superior to those that believe differently, trouble ensues.... oh and nice touch with the best of luck thing. If it had not been right next to the insult, it would have seemed sincere.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Snow
error

[Justice]

...all you have is dogma...

So, just to be clear, are what's in the scriptures truth, allegory, dogma, or what? Can we even use the scriptures since, according to you, God Himself didn't write them? If we can't use the scriptures, please make a list of sources we can use.

[Snow]

So, just to be clear, are what's in the scriptures truth, allegory, dogma, or what? Can we even use the scriptures since, according to you, God Himself didn't write them? If we can't use the scriptures, please make a list of sources we can use.

Oh brother, this is laborious. Why it has to be explained is a mystery to me.

Truth, allegory and dogma are not mutually exclusive. Something can be one, two or all three at once. Scripture contains all three, but not everything in scripture is literally and factually true. That's not questionable. It's a fact.

You can certainly use scriptures. I'm not sure where you got the crazy notion that you can't. What you can't, however, is use religious writings such as the anonymous flood account as serious/substantive evidence that there was such a flood as described. Oh, it's evidence that anciently an anonymous writer wrote that there was such a flood, but it's not evidence that there actually was such a flood any more than the Hadith is evidence that God rewards terrorists with virgins in paradise.

As to your request for a list of sources you can use - seriously dude - that's doesn't even make sense.

[Justice]

You told me, when I quoted Genesis, that God did not write Genesis, implying I cannot take it as factual for that reason. I can paste it in if you'd like.

If the Bible cannot be used as evidence than we have to exclude all written texts as evidence (which I think is the point you're making). I just think that's going too far. Written language is our only way of communicating with the past. Sure, you can study rocks and dirt, but they only tell a limited story.

Writing is proof that someone was there, not proof what they wrote was true. For us to know what they wrote is true it must be revealed to man.

The Bible is part of the official canon of the Church of Jesus Christ, organized by a prophet called of God through direct revelation from Jesus Christ. Therefore, we know it to be true. There has been no such claim on the Hadith. I think we can safely assume there is a difference until we are told there's not.

[Snow]

You told me, when I quoted Genesis, that God did not write Genesis, implying I cannot take it as factual for that reason. I can paste it in if you'd like.

Are you a joke poster? Are you just trying to see how many times you can get me to respond to absurdities before I get tired and move on?

That was hardly the point I was making. The daily newspaper isn't written by God but I think that today's article on the weather was pretty factual. The point I made is that you mistakenly equate anonymous authorship in ancient biblical accounts with absolute truth, as if God Himself had wrote it...

If the Bible cannot be used as evidence than we have to exclude all written texts as evidence (which I think is the point you're making). I just think that's going too far. Written language is our only way of communicating with the past. Sure, you can study rocks and dirt, but they only tell a limited story.

Yeah - good thinking. You go ahead and do that. Let me know how that works out.

The Bible is part of the official canon of the Church of Jesus Christ, organized by a prophet called of God through direct revelation from Jesus Christ. Therefore, we know it to be true. There has been no such claim on the Hadith. I think we can safely assume there is a difference until we are told there's not.

Is that so?

Are you aware that Joseph Smith did not think that all the books of the Bible were inspired?

Are you aware that Brigham Young thought that some myths from the OT were simply "baby stories" - allegorical tales suited for children?

Are you not aware of the many factual inaccuracies in the Bible?

If you have anything new to add, feel free but if its more joking and such as posted above, move along please.

[Justice]

Yeah, we should move on. But, one for the road, then you can have last word.

That was hardly the point I was making.

Wasn't it?

The point I made is that you mistakenly equate anonymous authorship in ancient biblical accounts with absolute truth, as if God Himself had wrote it...

There it is again.

I posted quite a few scriptures that stated when something is revealed by the Holy Spirit to a man, and that man speaks or writes it, then it can be considered as if God Himself wrote or spoke it... the mind of God, the will of God, the power of God unto salvation... on and on.

Are you aware that Joseph Smith did not think that all the books of the Bible were inspired?

Yes, as do I. I also know there are books that are inspiried that were removed from the Bible.

Are you aware that Brigham Young thought that some myths from the OT were simply "baby stories" - allegorical tales suited for children?

Yes, but the flood was not one of them.

Are you not aware of the many factual inaccuracies in the Bible?

Yes, I keep quite an extensive list of them in my scriptures in case "the Bible is perfect" comes up in discussion.

If you have anything new to add, feel free but if its more joking and such as posted above, move along please.

It's not new, but it's certainly not joking either.

However, I will choose to move along.

But, I'd be interested to see a list (as complete as you want to make it) of which stories in the Bible are factual and which are just made up stories. Your opinion would be fine, but quotes from Apostles or Prophets would be great.

[rameumptom]

Justice and Snow,

I have told you both to drop the attacks, and get back to fruitful discussion. I will not make this request again. I suggest you ignore each other, or take it to PM.

Regardless of whether Genesis is evidence of a flood, the Bible is very factual when it comes to the call for us being peacemakers, and that contention is of the devil.

Stop the contention now.

[HiJolly]

That's a fitting illustration to a key point made in this thread... that unless someone agrees with another's religious point of view, there is something wrong with them ("you're in a tough spot, Snow). Now I know that you simply meant it as one more insult but it's at the crux of acrimony between religious traditions... in the absence of some evidence, all you have is dogma and when one party thinks their dogma is superior to other dogmas and then that they are therefore superior to those that believe differently, trouble ensues.... oh and nice touch with the best of luck thing. If it had not been right next to the insult, it would have seemed sincere.

The trouble ain’t that people are ignorant; it’s that they know

so much that ain’t so.

-- Josh Billings

HiJolly

[Relentless]

Oooh! Another fun filled debate for me to partake in!!!

I have a question regarding the "flood" In the book of Moses, we read an account of the flood. Does the fact that this was revelation to Joseph Smith (See heading of Moses 1; An extract from the translation of the Bible as revealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet, June 1830—February 1831) give the "global flooding" any more credability? This is direct revelation to Joseph Smith, someone who "saw" the Savior (and Heavenly Father).

With regards to other literal or allegorical events;

Moses 7:14 "There also came up a land out of the depth of the sea, and so great was the fear of the enemies of the people of God, that they fled and stood afar off and went upon the land which came up out of the depth of the sea."

Did this really happen, or was it "a symbollic narative"?

What about Shadrach Meshach and Abed-nego? They were thrown into a furnace that was so hot, it killed the men who put them into it, yet they were unscathed. (see Daniel 3)

Was it a literal fire? Or is there an allegorical meaning here?

What of the story of Moses and the Red Sea?

Exodus 14:15-16, 21-22, 26-29

15 And the Lord said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:

16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.

21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

26 ¶ And the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch out thine ahand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.

27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the Lord overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.

28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

To me this is a literal event. The Lord performed a miracle. I do not know what the allegorical meaning of this story could be, but I am open to suggestions...

Consider Elijah's challenge to the priests of Baal (1 Kings 18:21-38)

21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the Lord; but Baal’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men.

23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:

24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the Lord: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.

26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.

27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.

29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.

30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the Lord that was broken down.

31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the Lord came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.

33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.

34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.

35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.

36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.

37 Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know athat thou art the Lord God, and that thou hast turned their bheart back again.

38 Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

Here we have another event that I take to be literal, even though I doubt science could prove it happened.

My point is this, yes there are some allegories in the scriptures, there are also literal events. Some of these events CANNOT be explained by science, or may even be discredited by science. I am not suggesting that the earth is 7,000 years old, nor do I discount some sort of evolution as a means by which Heavenly Father created life on earth.

We do not know how long a "day" was during the creation. We do not know what transpired on earth when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. We do not know how or where dinosaurs fir into the story of the creation.

But we do know that the scriptures are written by men inspired of God. We believe the Bible to be the Word of God, so far as it is translated correctly (AoF 8). So was it authored by Heavenly Father or Jesus? Not physically, but it is their message.

I look forward to having my post thoroughly disected and being told how wrong I am :)

[Snow]

Justice and Snow,

I have told you both to drop the attacks, and get back to fruitful discussion. I will not make this request again. I suggest you ignore each other, or take it to PM.

Regardless of whether Genesis is evidence of a flood, the Bible is very factual when it comes to the call for us being peacemakers, and that contention is of the devil.

Stop the contention now.

Sorry - I thought you were referring the exchanges between HiJolly and me. The exchanges with Justice didn't seem to have too much of an edge to them but I guess they did.

Sorry Justice.

Thanks

[rameumptom]

HiJolly,

The way I look at it, it doesn't matter whether we view such events as real or symbolic. Most Jews view the stories as allegory with truth/history mixed in, with the idea that these are designed to teach us, not give us a history lesson.

In the stories, we find patterns for life and the world around us. Whether we believe they actually happened has nothing or little to do with our salvation. Was there a flood? Probably. I am just not convinced it was a global one. It could have been a large, regional flood. However, to Noah it definitely would have seemed like it was global.

Genesis teaches Adam was the first man, yet Brigham Young and others taught about Pre-Adamites. Brigham Young rejected the concept of Eve being literally formed from Adam's rib.

So, it is okay to believe in it literally, and it is okay to believe it is figurative. The key is not to be so dogmatic that we risk losing our own testimonies, or causing others to lose theirs. I've known several young people who were taught the earth was only 6000 years old, only to go off to college and come back as atheists. Why? Because they were taught such things on such a dogmatic level that it forced them to choose between religion and science.

I know people to this day who insist that there could not have been other people before Adam, nor death before the Fall, otherwise all of it falls apart. If we must believe that dinosaurs lived during the last 6000 years, and died in the Flood, then we create a huge problem with science that really doesn't need to be there. Why? Because Joseph Smith believed the earth to be 2.555 billion years old, suggesting he had an understanding of how old things really were.

We have to distinguish between core doctrine and teachings. Jesus taught in parables. All scripture is given to us through the lens of the author. Genesis comes to us through the eyes of Moses, who was not there when things actually happened. He wrote the history based upon his understanding of things. And he was not a scientist, nor was he attempting to explain things through science.

In reality, the Book of Moses and the beginning of Genesis are more like a temple endowment than history. Given that the three do not have Creation following in the same order, we can then understand that it is not necessarily an exact "history" of events. The key is, there was a Creation. There was a Fall, and there is a need for an Atonement. If the specifics are not given to us perfectly, or are given to us in symbolic form, so what?

Do miracles occur? Yes. We do not have to believe that all miracles in scripture are symbolic. But we have to remember that a few chapters in Genesis or Moses cannot justifiably give us a full historical account of the Creation or even the Garden of Eden.

[Hemidakota]

Ram, I am curious in where did President Young taught pre-Adamites.

Others, in order to understand the harder records within the scripture, it requires faith of purity, a listening ear, obedience, and have a true desire to receive an answer. If you want to know what happen before this spiritual embodiment, the Creation, location of GOD, what is outside of the Universe, what does GOD look like, Noah Deluge, and so forth, ask the Godhead for a personal revelation. There is nothing that stops you in receiving an answer but you.

Simplicity is the key here. It always starts with a desire to know – research and study – ponder what is given – having your own formulated answer, have the faith and hope in receiving the truth of such.

How hard is this than to speculate over what others may give?

[Traveler]

I am posting this to give my personal opinion. Although I am LDS I am going to add a disclaimer that for this post I am not speaking by priesthood authority. I would like to tell everyone that I am a very spiritual guy but to those that know me, even on this forum also know I have my moments. Most of which are flawed human moments.

It does appear to me that most of us are willing to give ourselves excuses and latitude that we are hesitant to give others. The most disappointment I have concerning this forum is efforts to “prove” someone else wrong. This I say not because I believe this to be everybody else’s flaw – but because it is my flaw.

Every once and a while as I examine myself, I wonder, is it better to be right or compassionate and loving. The truth is that it is best to be both. The sad truth is the most of the time when we are justifying ourselves it is because we think we are right and forget about compassion to prove ourselves.

A quick thought here – the other day I was cut off by an insane driver that was driving like a complete idiot. In my anger I wanted to look that fool in the eyes and show my disapproval. So I drove more aggressively than usual to pull up alongside the nefarious driver but when I was able to look the other driver in the eyes – it was my stake president. I know my stake president well enough to know better of him than what I had just judged. When he looked back at me, I smiled pleasantly and gestured a friendly wave (not what I had planned). My interpretation of others is the only thing I use to justify my lack of compassion towards them. It is my error not theirs. This does not mean that others do not do foolish and stupid things – just that my attitude towards them is my foolish and stupid doing and not theirs.

I do not know the details of creation or the flood. I do know a lot of the details that took place in the creation of my children because I was involved and a part of it. I am grateful that G-d gave me such a view into creation and I believe the view given me was honest and true. If someone has insights into the creation of Adam and Eve to indicate that G-d in his wisdom employed a completely different process and method to his current creations that we can observe in detail, then I am interested in your insight. Less on what you have resolved than why and how and I would like to be able to discuss such things – without creating animosity on the forum. I would like to ask deep and probing questions without getting into arguments. But I must admit there are some people on the forum that I do not trust to ask openly – what is going on inside their mind and others I do not care to open what is going on in my mind.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

Good example of studying the scriptures concerning using today's revelation and yesterday biblical account:

If you look at what is considered to be the Garden of Eden [center point], Independence, then to Far West then Adam-Ondi-Ahman, it is a straight line. Did not GOD state, he drove Adam and Eve out of the Garden? Why is Far West a great importunacy to both Joseph Smith and Moroni [who also stopped at the this location] and considered sacred by the Savior mentioned in the D&C? As I listening to the still small voice in my studies, where is the City of Nod or the Valley of Nod, supposedly Cain moved and dwelled as he was now considered a vagabond or wonder? Did the biblical account state, it was eastward of the Garden? Now, drawing another line, you will find something interesting points where numerous Indian mounds are located on the same line and a notable valley area. Is this valley of Nod? Perhaps! Then perhaps not! It will require further study and then approach the Lord on what I do believe is the location. Listening to the still small voice as I am drawn to a particular location is start though.

Getting back to the line, from Independence to Adam's habitation, was considered east of the garden. Today, we see it differently. It is not eastward as stated. With several revelations and canonized scriptures, we can clearly see the Earth in Adam to Noah’s day was not on the same tilt axis as we see it today.

From President Wilford Woodruff -

“With all the claims of our American people, none, so far as I know, had up to that time imagined for our country the honor of being the home of our first parents, but since then it has become a favorite theory with many. A few years after Joseph had proclaimed that the great Mississippi Valley was the first home of man, the learned antiquarian, Samuel L. Mitchell of New York, with other gentlemen eminent for their knowledge of natural history, advanced the theory that America was the land where Adam dwelt. He supported his theory by tracing the progress of colonies westward from America over the Pacific Ocean to new settlements in Europe and Africa. (Juvenile Instructor, vol. 9: 278). Other scientists have reasoned elaborately from the relics found in different parts of North and South America, and have proven that the Western Continent was inhabited before the flood. Now, if Adam dwelt in America, Noah also dwelt here and must have built his ark on this continent. Without entering into a detailed argument to prove this, I will simply read the following from an able and lengthy article entitled "Old America," written by G. M. O., and published in the ninth volume of the Juvenile Instructor:

"Modern science has given us very accurately drawn charts of the course of the wind through the atmosphere surrounding us. We have no reason to believe these wind currents have changed since the creation. Now the prevailing current of wind over the central part of North America is from the west, and possibly this was the course followed by the tornado during the deluge. Now if the ark had been built in Armenia, where the mountain Ararat is situated, and it is found that the wind and currents have general eastern direction, the ark would, during the one hundred and fifty days or five months of the deluge (that is from the commencement until the waters gained their greatest depth), have gone in an eastern course, say at the rate of about forty miles a day, some six thousand miles, or beyond China; or if it floated faster, it would have left the ark somewhere in the Pacific Ocean. This would be an unreasonable theory to adopt, being entirely inconsistent. But the ark being built in America, somewhere, we may imagine in the latitude of Missouri, when taken up by the eastern-borne current, and wafted by the hurricane following the same course, it is not out of the way to suppose it to have progressed as far as Ararat, some six or seven thousand miles from America, even had it traveled at a more rapid rate than forty or fifty miles a day. Over sixteen hundred years had passed from the creation until the ark was finished. In this time mankind had increased and multiplied and spread out far beyond the country around Eden (the Mississippi Valley), as signs of an antediluvian population indicate, and we may suppose the ark was built some distance east of the Garden, between the States of New York and Missouri. Couple this supposition with the circumstances connected with the flood, the current flowing from America, with the fact of the ark's resting in an easterly direction from this country, and we can form no other reasonable conclusion than that here the miraculous vessel was constructed and freighted with its treasure of animal life, and the progenitors designated and set apart to renew the human race. That the ancient Americans knew of the deluge is beyond dispute, as we have several versions of the story of the flood that have been handed down as tradition by different nations, and in one instance we have a picture-written description of it, an old Toltec record, fortunately preserved from the wholesale destruction that followed the conquest.

Suffice it to say that it is no longer considered an absurd theory that America was the cradle of man, and the home of Adam, Noah and the other antediluvian patriarchs, but it has taken many years of patient study and thorough investigation of scientific problems for men of learning to come to the same conclusion that Joseph Smith did by revelation between fifty and sixty years ago.”

If the Ark was driven eastward from eastside of the Garden, do we not think, the first land fall would be Europe before Northern Syria or Southern Turkey area first? I would think so…it would be hard to miss it. I believe it was Nibley described some non-cannon writings concerning Noah’s journey cold winter air and prior flooding earth trembling [earthquakes]. Interesting points Hugh pointed out was more than this though.

Such tidbits of truth are collected in a series of dots in gathering knowledge of what was…do see such a small effort in asking the Spirit for guidance can begin a journey of further knowledge of the past and in the end? In His own time, the Holy Ghost will make a confirmation when the place last dot together.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Another Tidbit of Spirit while I was attending a funeral, when I was reading Ether, Moroni stated he assumed that the writings from Adam to Moses time were not important to translate and condense since they had the same record from Brass of Laban. Hmm…

Ok! I thought...but if he would look closer, Brother of Jared had the record of Adam to Noah's day. It was stated he took the records with him when they left the Tower of Babel. What was contained in that writing that could have been different from our own biblical account of Genesis? Remember, Abraham was a young lad and Moses was not born yet. So, it was not the same record. As I believe it would reveal greater details than what is mulled over in the first few chapters of Genesis. Now, I don’t blame Moroni since he was alone and the scarcity of plates on hand was another issue.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Justice]

Sorry - I thought you were referring the exchanges between HiJolly and me. The exchanges with Justice didn't seem to have too much of an edge to them but I guess they did.

Sorry Justice.

Thanks

No, I'm with you Snow. I re-read this thread and I don't see a word where I called you a name or was angry, upset, or even hinted that I wasn't genuinely interested in hearing what you think.

I need Ram to show me the exact post and words I used that he found offensive.

If I offended you, Snow, or called you a name, I sincerely apologize.

[Hemidakota]

I for one welcome your postings.

[Relentless]

Oooh! Another fun filled debate for me to partake in!!!

I have a question regarding the "flood" In the book of Moses, we read an account of the flood. Does the fact that this was revelation to Joseph Smith (See heading of Moses 1; An extract from the translation of the Bible as revealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet, June 1830—February 1831) give the "global flooding" any more credability? This is direct revelation to Joseph Smith, someone who "saw" the Savior (and Heavenly Father).

With regards to other literal or allegorical events;

Moses 7:14 "There also came up a land out of the depth of the sea, and so great was the fear of the enemies of the people of God, that they fled and stood afar off and went upon the land which came up out of the depth of the sea."

Did this really happen, or was it "a symbollic narative"?

What about Shadrach Meshach and Abed-nego? They were thrown into a furnace that was so hot, it killed the men who put them into it, yet they were unscathed. (see Daniel 3)

Was it a literal fire? Or is there an allegorical meaning here?

What of the story of Moses and the Red Sea?

Exodus 14:15-16, 21-22, 26-29

15 And the Lord said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:

16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.

21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

26 ¶ And the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch out thine ahand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.

27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the Lord overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.

28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

To me this is a literal event. The Lord performed a miracle. I do not know what the allegorical meaning of this story could be, but I am open to suggestions...

Consider Elijah's challenge to the priests of Baal (1 Kings 18:21-38)

21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the Lord; but Baal’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men.

23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:

24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the Lord: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.

26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.

27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.

29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.

30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the Lord that was broken down.

31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the Lord came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.

33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.

34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.

35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.

36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.

37 Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know athat thou art the Lord God, and that thou hast turned their bheart back again.

38 Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

Here we have another event that I take to be literal, even though I doubt science could prove it happened.

My point is this, yes there are some allegories in the scriptures, there are also literal events. Some of these events CANNOT be explained by science, or may even be discredited by science. I am not suggesting that the earth is 7,000 years old, nor do I discount some sort of evolution as a means by which Heavenly Father created life on earth.

We do not know how long a "day" was during the creation. We do not know what transpired on earth when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. We do not know how or where dinosaurs fir into the story of the creation.

But we do know that the scriptures are written by men inspired of God. We believe the Bible to be the Word of God, so far as it is translated correctly (AoF 8). So was it authored by Heavenly Father or Jesus? Not physically, but it is their message.

I look forward to having my post thoroughly disected and being told how wrong I am :)

Hmm, i go away for a few days, and when I get back, I am still waiting. I guess I shouldn't be suprised, it must be hard to debate when you are the ONLY ONE smart enough to understand why everyone else is wrong...

[Snow]

O

We do not know how long a "day" was during the creation.

Yeah - I love that school of thought. When the text says "day," it doesn't mean "day." It means something other than "day."

Using that line of thought, anything becomes possible. If we assume that words have no specific meaning, think how easy it would be to prove that, er, say, David Letterman is in reality King David of the OT.

[rameumptom]

Hmm, i go away for a few days, and when I get back, I am still waiting. I guess I shouldn't be suprised, it must be hard to debate when you are the ONLY ONE smart enough to understand why everyone else is wrong...

Maybe we just already have the answer, and are waiting for you to catch up to us.....

The issue is, how does one prove/disprove whether these events are historical or allegorical? I figured that your comments were rhetorical, as anyone foolish enough to try and answer it would only be able to provide an opinion.