Yet Another Tithing Post


Azriel
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This statement taken from an Ensign article:

President Howard W. Hunter stated it this way: “The law is simply stated as ‘one-tenth of all their interest.’ Interest means profit, compensation, increase. It is the wage of one employed, the profit from the operation of a business, the increase of one who grows or produces, or the income to a person from any other source. The Lord said it is a standing law ‘forever’ as it has been in the past.

Seems to contradict itself.

Why is it the PROFIT of a business? A business pays rent, utilities, wages. Some businesses pay for food for their workers.

But a worker pays on their wage? This says they pay it on their pre-expense income, whereas a business pays it on post-expense profit?

Why am I different as a worker? Why am I not considered a 1 person business that hires myself out to another paying company for whatever they ask of me?

I've been looking into Tithing because I really want to start paying again.

68%-70% of my net income goes to expenses that do not include food.

Starting in the new year those will go up as I have to start paying Student Loans off again.

If I paid tithing on my gross wages I'd have about $50/wk for groceries and any other bills or expenses that come up. They inevitably do. I don't like having less than $50 in my bank account. So some weeks I have to pick other bills and expenses over food.

If I paid on my net wages I'd have about $10 more a wk. Not a whole lot.

I don't feel comfortable having so little money on hand. I already don't go to the doctor. I don't have current medical prescriptions for meds I'm supposed to be on. There's a lot I can't afford to take care of.

I have a testimony for tithing. It ALWAYS blesses me.

But tithing on my pre-expense income doesn't seem feasible to me at this point. I can throw a few dollars out here and there, but not a set 10% of net or gross.

But 10% of my actual profit. Yes. I can do that.

Gonna pray on it, but not sure it'll help

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Why is it the PROFIT of a business? A business pays rent, utilities, wages. Some businesses pay for food for their workers.

I'm not sure why this would be perceived as a contradiction. The way I see it is this:

You own a business...you bring in $10,000 for a month. After your expenses of utilities etc. etc. and any wages for an employee you have..you have $5,000 remaining. So you as a business owner have now profited $5,000. Would that not be an increase of what would be considered for tithing?

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This statement taken from an Ensign article:

President Howard W. Hunter stated it this way: “The law is simply stated as ‘one-tenth of all their interest.’ Interest means profit, compensation, increase. It is the wage of one employed, the profit from the operation of a business, the increase of one who grows or produces, or the income to a person from any other source. The Lord said it is a standing law ‘forever’ as it has been in the past.

Seems to contradict itself.

Why is it the PROFIT of a business? A business pays rent, utilities, wages. Some businesses pay for food for their workers.

But a worker pays on their wage? This says they pay it on their pre-expense income, whereas a business pays it on post-expense profit?

Why am I different as a worker? Why am I not considered a 1 person business that hires myself out to another paying company for whatever they ask of me?

Because you don't have to pay workers or business expenses.

Look, if you want to deduct the expense of gasoline and car care for traveling to and from work before you tithe, go for it. That is between you and God. The commandment is both clear and simple: Pay a tenth of your increase. President Hunter gave perfectly good and accurate guidelines for determining what constitutes your increase.

I've been looking into Tithing because I really want to start paying again.

Then go for it. Start paying again. But don't treat it as a tax and look for ways to maximize deductions and minimize assets. God has blessed you greatly, so give greatly. If you have doubt about whether to tithe some certain thing, just tithe it.

If I paid tithing on my gross wages I'd have about $50/wk for groceries and any other bills or expenses that come up. They inevitably do. I don't like having less than $50 in my bank account. So some weeks I have to pick other bills and expenses over food.

If I paid on my net wages I'd have about $10 more a wk. Not a whole lot.

I don't feel comfortable having so little money on hand.

Tithing is not designed to make you feel comfortable.

Having said that, if you are short on money, the bishop would be glad to let you visit his storehouse for some staples. This might be a good way to help you out.

I have a testimony for tithing. It ALWAYS blesses me.

But tithing on my pre-expense income doesn't seem feasible to me at this point. I can throw a few dollars out here and there, but not a set 10% of net or gross.

Then it is not tithing. Tithing means "a tenth".

But 10% of my actual profit. Yes. I can do that.

What do you mean, Your actual profit? You mean the money you have left over after paying your rent, utilities, and student loan? That's not "profit", that's "money you have left over". "Profit" is what you bring home in your paycheck.

Gonna pray on it, but not sure it'll help

Good luck.

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Okay, you got a business - to run this business you need to pay employees, etc. What is left-over is profit. Easy enough right? A business can either spend the profit back into the business to expand, or divvy it up to stockholders, or just get a brand new carpet or whatever. It's up to the business.

Okay, say, you're the business, what is your profit? Say you put a TV on your credit card. Now you have a monthly credit card payment. Is that expense for your business, or is that what you decide to spend your profit on? It's up to you.

By the way, tithing is designed so that it has the HIGHEST priority. You pay it before you pay anything else. It truly requires a lot of faith that the rest of the stuff will work itself out.

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""Profit" is what you bring home in your paycheck."

Oh? My paycheck is net, not gross. No one has a clear answer on that one.

I don't understand why business expenses are counted against profit, when living expenses aren't.

A business can say "I HAVE to pay my electricity, rent, wages, utilities, etc." So they get to subtract that from their income? So their $10,000 for a month doesn't get tithed, their remaining $5,000 does.

A person can say "I HAVE to pay my electricity, rent, utilities, etc." So they DON'T get to subtract that from their income? Their $1,000 gets tithed, not their $500.

The bible says a tenth of our interest, the money we make. But I don't make what my paycheck says. That money is already claimed, and in one case automatically taken from my bank account.

If I didn't pay rent, or for my car, or for gas then the end result is me jobless and homeless and unable to take care of myself, let alone the family I'm planning.

So why, then, do people say that I can't pay on my profit, like a business owner gets to do, but I have to tithe on well more than my profit?

This statement: "the profit from the operation of a business" leaves me in confusion, and God is not the author of confusion.

I don't understand why it would be different for and individual than for a business. A business might have more and/or higher expenses, but their expenses nonetheless (and business owners CHOOSE to accept those expenses by creating a business)

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Should a business owner have to pay tithing on the wages he/she is having to pay for employees? That's not an increase to the business owner, that's an increase to the employee.

We are commanded to pay 10% of our increase.

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Oh? My paycheck is net, not gross. No one has a clear answer on that one.

I pay on my gross. I think it's a good way to tithe. But I'm happy to leave that decision to each individual rather than presume to instruct them.

Nevertheless, while I'm not competent to declare to people the specifics on their method of tithing, I do feel justified in saying that those who are looking to cut their "tithable income" by taking "tithing deductions" wherever they can find them are completely missing the spirit of the law and the point of what they are supposed to be doing.

I don't understand why business expenses are counted against profit, when living expenses aren't.

A business can say "I HAVE to pay my electricity, rent, wages, utilities, etc."

Businesses don't pay tithing.

A businessman who pays himself a salary of $100,000 from his business pays tithing on the $100 grand. If his business makes ten million dollars, he still pays on his salary. On the other hand, if all the business' profits go to his personal account, I'd say at that point he should be paying $1 million, not $10 thousand, in tithing.

A business's expenses are required for the business to run. No one lives off of that money; it's purely overhead. On the other hand, you quite clearly do live off of the money you pay for rent and such. So that is increase for you -- hence, you tithe it.

A person can say "I HAVE to pay my electricity, rent, utilities, etc." So they DON'T get to subtract that from their income? Their $1,000 gets tithed, not their $500.

You are totally missing the point of tithing.

Your logic is also faulty. By your logic, as long as I always live to the very limit of my income, I should never "have" to pay tithing. After all, I HAVE to pay utilities (on my mansion), car payments (on my Lamborghini), and credit card bills (on everything else I've enjoyed over the year). So, hey, since I HAVE to pay these things, that means I have zero "increase". No tithing!

I don't think so.

The bible says a tenth of our interest, the money we make. But I don't make what my paycheck says. That money is already claimed, and in one case automatically taken from my bank account.

If I didn't pay rent, or for my car, or for gas then the end result is me jobless and homeless and unable to take care of myself, let alone the family I'm planning.

So why, then, do people say that I can't pay on my profit, like a business owner gets to do, but I have to tithe on well more than my profit?

The business owner does not "get" to deduct. If a business costs $2 million each year to operate and turns a profit of $200,000, do you really believe the owner should tithe on the $2.2 million in receipts -- that is, tithe without deducting business expenses? That is absurd. It would more than wipe out his profit. This is a far different scenario from the one you're proposing, saying that "My apartment costs me X, my food costs me Y, my car costs me Z, and all of my miscellaneous expenses add up on my credit card, so I need to deduct the cost of all those things first."

This statement: "the profit from the operation of a business" leaves me in confusion, and God is not the author of confusion.

That doesn't mean God didn't author those words. It just means God didn't author your confusion about them.

I don't understand why it would be different for and individual than for a business. A business might have more and/or higher expenses, but their expenses nonetheless (and business owners CHOOSE to accept those expenses by creating a business)

Either you have no understanding of how a business operates, or you are choosing to ignore the very real and substantial differences between business finance and personal finance. In the former case, you can educate yourself about businesses, if you like, but the takeaway is that you don't tithe your personal income the way a business calculates its profit. In the latter case, none of the conversation is worthwhile anyway, so I'll just let it go.

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Businesses don't pay tithing.

A businessman who pays himself a salary of $100,000 from his business pays tithing on the $100 grand. If his business makes ten million dollars, he still pays on his salary. On the other hand, if all the business' profits go to his personal account, I'd say at that point he should be paying $1 million, not $10 thousand, in tithing.

Good point Vort. I should have brought that out in my scenario but that is very true.

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We calculate profit annually. As a business owner (partner) I pay tithing on my salary, and on my own annual dividends ("distribution" in the case of LLC). Retained earnings belong to the business entity until distributed, so no tithing comes out of that, since it's not all mine. Of course, if I sell my units then I pay tithing on the increase I receive from the sale.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited by Vanhin
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My two cents...

I work as a substitute teacher practicing to be a full-time teacher. During my job I incur expenses like having to purchase a teaching credential and various licenses once per year. I also have to pay to take tests for my credential. I always deduct those because they are a business expense and do not count as an increase.

I think ultimately you should pray about it because I think it is different for everybody. Back when I used to be an accountant if I had to drive two hours to go to a client's office I would not tithe on the gas money because it was an expense. I think that the 10% only applies to your increase.

I think praying about it is the best way. Some wealther people can afford to give more so they can tithe on the ultimate gross of whatever they make. Some barely scrape by, even with getting groceries from the storehouse every month, and can barely afford tithing. Maybe some can even give over 10%, I think if we pray about it the Spirit will direct us in the right way for us.

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I pay tithing even if I don't have enough to get me through the month. Tithing isn't just for those who can 'afford' it. I've had months where we made $400 the whole month. Our rent was $400. We still paid out tithing and it was a beautiful thing that really grew my testimony. Wonderful things happened that brought in money and everything got paid, it was intense. If this 10 dollars a week makes such a huge difference, perhaps talking to your bishop about getting food from the church would be a good idea. Of course, that will require you to be humble and it's hard to do, it was for me.

Pay your tithing, even if it puts you close to not being able to meet your bills. Pay your tithing even if you know you don't have enough for your bills. Talk to your bishop. Prepare for blessings.

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This statement taken from an Ensign article:

President Howard W. Hunter stated it this way: “The law is simply stated as ‘one-tenth of all their interest.’ Interest means profit, compensation, increase. It is the wage of one employed, the profit from the operation of a business, the increase of one who grows or produces, or the income to a person from any other source. The Lord said it is a standing law ‘forever’ as it has been in the past.

Seems to contradict itself.

Why is it the PROFIT of a business? A business pays rent, utilities, wages. Some businesses pay for food for their workers.

But a worker pays on their wage? This says they pay it on their pre-expense income, whereas a business pays it on post-expense profit?

Why am I different as a worker? Why am I not considered a 1 person business that hires myself out to another paying company for whatever they ask of me?

I've been looking into Tithing because I really want to start paying again.

68%-70% of my net income goes to expenses that do not include food.

Starting in the new year those will go up as I have to start paying Student Loans off again.

If I paid tithing on my gross wages I'd have about $50/wk for groceries and any other bills or expenses that come up. They inevitably do. I don't like having less than $50 in my bank account. So some weeks I have to pick other bills and expenses over food.

If I paid on my net wages I'd have about $10 more a wk. Not a whole lot.

I don't feel comfortable having so little money on hand. I already don't go to the doctor. I don't have current medical prescriptions for meds I'm supposed to be on. There's a lot I can't afford to take care of.

I have a testimony for tithing. It ALWAYS blesses me.

But tithing on my pre-expense income doesn't seem feasible to me at this point. I can throw a few dollars out here and there, but not a set 10% of net or gross.

But 10% of my actual profit. Yes. I can do that.

Gonna pray on it, but not sure it'll help

The Lord and the First Presidency has not change the true meaning what is a tithe. It means an increase! It means anything that is income, crop, food, materials, to monies. Pay ten-percent annually. If you receive 550 dollars as your paycheck, add up all those paychecks annually and pay the ten-percent. If you receive back any refund taxes, pay ten-percent. Keep it simple. You will be blessed.

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""Profit" is what you bring home in your paycheck."

Oh? My paycheck is net, not gross. No one has a clear answer on that one.

I don't understand why business expenses are counted against profit, when living expenses aren't.

A business can say "I HAVE to pay my electricity, rent, wages, utilities, etc." So they get to subtract that from their income? So their $10,000 for a month doesn't get tithed, their remaining $5,000 does.

A person can say "I HAVE to pay my electricity, rent, utilities, etc." So they DON'T get to subtract that from their income? Their $1,000 gets tithed, not their $500.

The bible says a tenth of our interest, the money we make. But I don't make what my paycheck says. That money is already claimed, and in one case automatically taken from my bank account.

If I didn't pay rent, or for my car, or for gas then the end result is me jobless and homeless and unable to take care of myself, let alone the family I'm planning.

So why, then, do people say that I can't pay on my profit, like a business owner gets to do, but I have to tithe on well more than my profit?

This statement: "the profit from the operation of a business" leaves me in confusion, and God is not the author of confusion.

I don't understand why it would be different for and individual than for a business. A business might have more and/or higher expenses, but their expenses nonetheless (and business owners CHOOSE to accept those expenses by creating a business)

The "tone" I gathered from this post tells me you have grievances. I could be wrong - written words can be easily mis-interpretted upon reading. If I read it right, I don't think that even if you ended up paying 20% tithe you would be ready to receive its blessings. Writing out that tithing check is as much an exercise of the spirit (the joy of giving) than of mathematics. Writing it out with much grumbling is not going to work.

Remember what Jesus said of the rich man who dropped gifts in the treasury as opposed to the poor widow who dropped but 2 coins? Who did Jesus say was more blessed?

Read Luke 21:1-4

1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.

3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

Listen, whether you pay tithes or not, the Church is going to move forward. It is promised that nothing can stop God's plan from unravelling in due course. Therefore, your tithes is completely a personal thing for you to gain a testimony of building the Kingdom. God will do without it if you don't feel inclined to give willingly without grumbling.

We can't tell you how much to tithe. You go on your knees and pray about it. You will know you did it right because your conscience will be clear when the Bishop asks you on temple recommend interview, "Are you a full tithe payer?", and you then answer, "Yes, I am". The Bishop will not ask for your W2's and run an audit. It is completely your own personal thing.

Be at peace.

Edited by anatess
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Hey, Vort, your answer would have been great and clarifying if it wasn't also so bent on subtly and sometimes not so subtly sniping me.

It would be nice to be able to go to and LDS board, ask LDS question about things that I clearly do NOT know about and get the answers to them. Period. I don't need this veiled negativity in my answers.

I thought I was very clear about me being confused, not understanding, and generally flaunting my lack of knowledge.

I do get the feeling that if I had said "Hey, I'm paying a full tithe on my gross income, but I have these concerns..." that my replies might have been given to me in a different manner.

Yes, anatess, I do feel I have some grievances. I can tithe on my gross income, or net income, whichever. Then when I don't have money for groceries I CAN get some groceries from the Church. However, I usually have to go hungry for awhile while I'm waiting for someone in RS to get the OK to buy some for me. But then, it turns out that the groceries aren't really for ME, they're for the entire household. So what would last me a month or more turns into one or two meals for me for a week.

The blessings there aren't exactly running over, for me. I'd have more food for me if I took that tithe and spent it on groceries.

It gets to be pretty frustrating. When I tithe I get employment, or better employment. Other people around me have been financially blessed, as well. If I weren't working and tithed on my last paycheck I KNOW I'd find a decent job before my money ran out. Yet for some reason I can't get that knowledge to transfer over now to: I KNOW if I paid my tithing I'd still have food to eat afterward. I don't know why that my testimony on tithing NOW isn't sufficient for me to believe I won't go hungry.

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