Worship--for God alone, or man as well?

[lattelady]

Do you believe that God, alone, deserves our praise? or do you believe that there are men that are to be/can be worshipped as well? I was reading the lyrics posted to a LDS hymn entitled "Praise To The Man, " and it seems that Joseph Smith is worshipped. I've also seen a billboard that has his picture on it that says, "Praise to the man." Are other prophets praised/worshipped as well?

[applepansy]

No, we only worship God the Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ.

We admire, respect, and deeply appreciate all that Joseph Smith did to restore the Gospel of Jesus Christ, thereby making it possible for us to return to live with our Heavenly Father. Praise and worship are not the same thing. We praise Joseph Smith for all he did, but we do not worship him. Yes there are other prophets we admire, but none who have done as much for mankind here on earth.

I think there is some confusion for the meaning of the words Praise and Worship.

Worship: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also an act of expressing such reverence

Praise: : to express a favorable judgment of

[pam]

Apple said it so well. Another example would be: We praise President Gordon B. Hinckley for the tremendous work he did in having more temples built around the globe. It was extraordinary. But we don't worship him.

As apple said..We worship only God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. Don't get the words praise and worship confused. They don't mean the same thing.

Edited December 25, 2009 by pam

[Justice]

lattelady, I know you've been involved in many discussions here, and even have been a productive member of many of those discussions.

But, if you sincerely did not know the answer to this question before you asked, I wonder if you've really paid attention. I have sincerely tried, and others have as well, to explain this very principle to you. I don't ask that you agree, but that you attempt to understand our point of view. You have to try to look at things through our eyes. If you have done this, it confuses me how or why you could even ask such a question.

Did you honestly think we worshipped anyone but God the Father or Jesus Christ? If after honestly pondering, even just 5 minutes, if you think we worship Joseph Smith, then you're not learning anything here. If you sincerely did not know by now then I wonder why you bother to come back?

Your question seems more like an attempt to criticize us for something you want to be able to say we do instead of an honest question. Maybe it's just your wording, or maybe your lack of words trying to express your real intent, but I don't see any sincerity in your question.

I'm usually the last one to express this sentiment on a thread, and I try very hard to do everything I can to help people before reaching this conclusion. So, help me out and tell me why you asked the question and tell me, honestly, that you sincerely did not know the answer already.

[Palerider]

I never knew praising was worshipping....I worship Jesus Christ and my Heavenly Father....I praise the living Prophet and others before for all they have done. In my mind thats a big big difference.

Edited December 25, 2009 by Palerider

[prisonchaplain]

As FYI, I think many outside the LDS community would find a phrase like "Praise to the man" to be surprising. My first thought (without any context) would be Communism. In deed, in one end times Christian movie there is a scene in which a store owner speaks to a customer (who happens to be a Christian) and gives what has become the standard greeting: Glory to man! When the Christian appears hesitant and stammers, the store owner tries to detain him, realizing he may be one of the "haters." (Government propoganda justifies the persecution of Christians because they allegedly hate anyone outside their own).

Having been to Temple Square, and having read some of the church pamphlets, I observe that LDS do venerate prophets and early leaders. Perhaps this is similar to Catholic appreciation for their saints?

IMHO it is indeed too much to suggest that honor/veneration/deep appreciation = worship. But I can remember finding the level of praise afforded Joseph Smith to be initially puzzling. Then again, I've toured the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College, and I suppose it could that establishing such a place of honor and recognition is similar. Different...but similar.

[Palerider]

As FYI, I think many outside the LDS community would find a phrase like "Praise to the man" to be surprising. My first thought (without any context) would be Communism. In deed, in one end times Christian movie there is a scene in which a store owner speaks to a customer (who happens to be a Christian) and gives what has become the standard greeting: Glory to man! When the Christian appears hesitant and stammers, the store owner tries to detain him, realizing he may be one of the "haters." (Government propoganda justifies the persecution of Christians because they allegedly hate anyone outside their own).

Having been to Temple Square, and having read some of the church pamphlets, I observe that LDS do venerate prophets and early leaders. Perhaps this is similar to Catholic appreciation for their saints?

IMHO it is indeed too much to suggest that honor/veneration/deep appreciation = worship. But I can remember finding the level of praise afforded Joseph Smith to be initially puzzling. Then again, I've toured the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College, and I suppose it could that establishing such a place of honor and recognition is similar. Different...but similar.

I knew we had you around here for a reason.....I think we will let you stay around longer.....j/k...thanks PC

[prisonchaplain]

I wanna raise.

[Palerider]

I wanna raise.

ask and ye shall recieve...knock and it shall be open

:money:

[john doe]

I praise my children when they do well in school. That does not mean that I worship them.

[Moksha]

As FYI, I think many outside the LDS community would find a phrase like "Praise to the man" to be surprising.

It would be surprising considering, it is the Man who keeps Homey down.

However, given the excellent job they perform for the Earth, who among

us would not consider offering praise to the Men in Black.

:)

[Moksha]

On another website, the question was asked if anyone worshiped Joseph Smith. The majority said they reserved their worship for God and Jesus, while a few did admit that they worshiped Joseph Smith.

[pam]

Perhaps they didn't understand the difference between praise and worship.

[WmLee]

Years ago I too felt a little ‘put back’ when I heard all the praise and such about Joseph Smith. I wondered why people were so caught up in mentioning him in testimonies and such. When I learned more about his life and what he and the other brethren went through just to spread the gospel and to establish the church, I think I understand now. I am amazed that in a country built around freedom by men and women seeking freedom, that men, women and children would be chased out of their homes; have their property taken, their constitutional rights violated, all because of their religion. Not to minimize anything that was done by the early saints, what Joseph Smith did was amazing.

I will only worship God, but I will forever be grateful for and praise Joseph Smith, as I do Wilford Woodruff and Gordon B. Hinckley. Amazing men!

[bytor2112]

Was Moses revered or Abraham? Is Paul revered today? What about the Pope? How do congregants of many churches feel about their Pastor? Revere and perhaps praise them for there spiritual leadership?Is Smith Wigglesworth revered and praised by Pentacostals?

Many men and women are worthy of praise and accolades. I think we can all agree that only God the Father and Jesus Christ are to be worshiped in the sense that Lattelady is referencing. We do not attend the church of Joseph Smith, or the Church of a particular type of ordinance...like the Baptist Church or the church of Martin Luther or the churches that were established in protest of the Roman Catholic Church.......we attend the Church of Jesus Christ.

[bytebear]

On another website, the question was asked if anyone worshiped Joseph Smith. The majority said they reserved their worship for God and Jesus, while a few did admit that they worshiped Joseph Smith.

I would appreciate a link to that discussion, because, honestly, I can't imagine anyone saying they worship Joseph Smith.

[lattelady]

Justice,

I understand WHAT you are saying, but I don't quite understand WHY you're saying it, other than you're being defensive. The thoughts/opinions/questions I post here don't come strictly from my perusal of this website. I live in Utah. I converse regularly with members of the LDS church. The question I asked was asked because it would truly seem as though Joseph Smith is put on the same level as Jesus Christ, and I believe (because of conversations I have had) that there are members who do put Joseph Smith on the same level. I'm not making it up, I'm not making assumptions; I understand that perhaps not every member feels that way, maybe even many members wouldn't feel that way. But it would appear as though some do; and they aren't afraid to admit it. As I mentioned, the words of the hymn that was posted, "Praise To The Man", when I read them as a non-member, bring up questions in my mind; when it mentions that Joseph holds the "keys", I'm assuming those are keys to the Kingdom of heaven (but I'm not sure, since I'm not a Member); in my non-member mind, Jesus is the only one who holds those keys. Thus, part of the reason for my question. As Moksha mentioned, "The majority [of LDS members] said they reserved their worship for God and Jesus, while a few did admit that they worshiped Joseph Smith." I have heard others echo this sentiment. My question was not meant as a jab, rather, a question.

[Traveler]

Justice,

I understand WHAT you are saying, but I don't quite understand WHY you're saying it, other than you're being defensive. The thoughts/opinions/questions I post here don't come strictly from my perusal of this website. I live in Utah. I converse regularly with members of the LDS church. The question I asked was asked because it would truly seem as though Joseph Smith is put on the same level as Jesus Christ, and I believe (because of conversations I have had) that there are members who do put Joseph Smith on the same level. I'm not making it up, I'm not making assumptions; I understand that perhaps not every member feels that way, maybe even many members wouldn't feel that way. But it would appear as though some do; and they aren't afraid to admit it. As I mentioned, the words of the hymn that was posted, "Praise To The Man", when I read them as a non-member, bring up questions in my mind; when it mentions that Joseph holds the "keys", I'm assuming those are keys to the Kingdom of heaven (but I'm not sure, since I'm not a Member); in my non-member mind, Jesus is the only one who holds those keys. Thus, part of the reason for my question. As Moksha mentioned, "The majority [of LDS members] said they reserved their worship for God and Jesus, while a few did admit that they worshiped Joseph Smith." I have heard others echo this sentiment. My question was not meant as a jab, rather, a question.

We worship Joseph Smith in the same manner you worship the Bible. You should not find our understanding of your worship of the Bible any less offensive or less of a jab than your suggestion we worship Joseph Smith. I also have seen you reference and "praise" the Bible as if it diserves the same respect as G-d himself. That it is the Bible that should define doctrine, explain salvation and speak in our time - not G-d. Therefore, I wonder why you worship the Bible - My question was not meant as a jab, rather a question? Why?

The Traveler

[Justice]

...when it mentions that Joseph holds the "keys", I'm assuming those are keys to the Kingdom of heaven (but I'm not sure, since I'm not a Member); in my non-member mind, Jesus is the only one who holds those keys.

I'm having this very discussion with a man at work. I've showed him the scriptures where Jesus gave these keys to others, yet he refuses to believe me. Oddly enough, he believes the Bible to be the perfect word of God, denying other scripture, yet he refuses to see plain scriptures like these in the Bible:

Matthew 16:

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

He also refuses to see that those keys are in reference to any kind of authority.

With modern scripture and revelation, and by having ancient prophecies fulfilled, we can readily and more easily understand the Bible and what was meant by phrases such as these. Without explanations from heavenly visitors and revelation passages like these would remain a mystery, just like they are to everyone else.

Here is Christ speaking again in our day:

D&C 65:

2 The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.

There are many scriptures in the D&C that teach about "keys of the kingdom of God (or heaven)." We have learned a great deal about what they are and who holds them, and even more amazing, their purpose.

These keys were given to man on earth once again in this time. Men on the earth hold these same keys now. This is the main reason why angels and God had to appear to man again in these last days. It is impossible to restore these keys, once they are lost from the earth, in any other way.

D&C 110:

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.

2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.

3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.

5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.

...

11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.

12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.

13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—

15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—

16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

So, here we are. Here is the answer to just one small question you have about keys. You can choose to believe the answer, or ignore it like so many others have.

[prisonchaplain]

Was Moses revered or Abraham? Is Paul revered today?

You'll not see many statues for these prophets/teachers. Very few Jews or Protestants I've run into get emotional when describing the sacrifices of these men. There is respect and admiration, but I would hesitate to even use the word veneration.

What about the Pope?

IMHO Catholic veneration of the saints and Mary, and the Pope, are very similar to LDS treatment of Joseph Smith, other early leaders, and the current President.

How do congregants of many churches feel about their Pastor?

There is some truth to this. And, it's a source of controversy. Do we have "little popes" running around. Do some pastors foster this, or is it church culture? In any case, while we have this problem, there's also a good deal of self-criticism about it.

Revere and perhaps praise them for there spiritual leadership? Is Smith Wigglesworth revered and praised by Pentacostals?

No, we're talking a whole different level here. In my history classes, the professor had no problem popping our bubbles by informing us that Charles Parham (formulator of the doctrine that tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit) later rejected the Azusa Street pentecostal revival as "Nig**r religion," thus exposing a latent racism shocking to our 21st century ears.

So, yes, we study them, respect their sacrifices, mostly agree with their teachings...but no, we don't hold them up--not even to Paul, Moses or Abraham's level.

Many men and women are worthy of praise and accolades. I think we can all agree that only God the Father and Jesus Christ are to be worshiped in the sense that Lattelady is referencing. We do not attend the church of Joseph Smith, or the Church of a particular type of ordinance...like the Baptist Church or the church of Martin Luther or the churches that were established in protest of the Roman Catholic Church.......we attend the Church of Jesus Christ.

IMHO, the discomfort of Protestants in particular, to the level of honor your church affords Joseph Smith, is a matter of spiritual culture. And, quite frankly, if we believed Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, we'd likely have far fewer reservations. Ultimately, whether a church gives its leaders too much power or recognition is mostly an in-house matter.

[prisonchaplain]

We worship Joseph Smith in the same manner you worship the Bible. You should not find our understanding of your worship of the Bible any less offensive or less of a jab than your suggestion we worship Joseph Smith. I also have seen you reference and "praise" the Bible as if it diserves the same respect as G-d himself. That it is the Bible that should define doctrine, explain salvation and speak in our time - not G-d. Therefore, I wonder why you worship the Bible - My question was not meant as a jab, rather a question? Why?

The Traveler

This may be worthy of a whole new string. With all seriousness, Traveler, other than a slightly cheeky tone, this may be the most profound post I've read in my 4+ years here!

Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians do indeed revere our Bibles. "The Bible Says It. I Believe it. That settles it!" So says the bumpersticker, and so, basically, it is. Jesus is the Word of God. But, we believe the Bible is the word of God. Our belief that the Bible contains all that we need for salvation, for life instruction, for understanding our world is 10 on a scale of 1-10. I've met several who proclaim that the only book they ever read is the Bible.

Why do we believe it's true? Well sure, there's some historical and literary information that bolsters our faith. But for many, it was an experience at an altar, at which we confessed our sins to God, accepted Jesus into our hearts, and were quickly instructed that the Bible is our manual for our new life. We were told that it was the Bible's words that convicted us, with the Holy Spirit, of course.

Liberal Christians, perhaps some Catholic apologists, and yes, some LDS ones as well, accuse us of Bibolatry. I suppose we're guilty, if you're guilty. Because, Traveler is right. We do venerate the Bible on the same level Catholics venerate Church tradition and authority, and LDS do their prophets.

So, what's the real issue? Did God's messengers meet Joseph Smith? Did Peter get the keys from Jesus, and pass them on to succeeding apostles in what became the Roman Catholic church? Or, was the Bible perfectly compiled and canonized by the anointing of the Holy Spirit, with translations that wrought no hinderance at all to the teachings God wished for us?

[Justice]

Bibolatry.

I LOVE this! I've never heard this word before, but it's a perfect description.

So, what's the real issue? Did God's messengers meet Joseph Smith? Did Peter get the keys from Jesus, and pass them on to succeeding apostles in what became the Roman Catholic church? Or, was the Bible perfectly compiled and canonized by the anointing of the Holy Spirit, with translations that wrought no hinderance at all to the teachings God wished for us?

Well, the Bible never claims to be the sole authority for God's word. Since it was the sole source for nearly 2 centuries, the idea crept in. It's not hard to see why it has.

I so love 2 Nephi 29 in response to this argument. The Lord Himself uses infallable logic and eternal truth to refute the notion of Bibolarty.

2 Nephi 29 (highlights):

3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

...

6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

...

Compelling evidence, and questions that I'd like someone who believes in Bibolatry to attempt to refute.

[Moksha]

I would appreciate a link to that discussion, because, honestly, I can't imagine anyone saying they worship Joseph Smith.

Bytebear, this was on the MAD forum. Can't supply any details further than that. If you typed in the search parameters <Joseph Smith, worship> you might narrow the list of potential searches down to a few thousand. Even then I understand they jettison files older than three years.

Those who admitted to this worship perhaps had a skewed view of what worship entails, but they still insisted that they worshiped the Prophets. That however is their prerogative, since who among us has not gone overboard on something or other. Even for some who insist they praise only, I wonder if the line of demarcation gets blurry sometimes.

:)

[Guest]

IMHO Catholic veneration of the saints and Mary, and the Pope, are very similar to LDS treatment of Joseph Smith, other early leaders, and the current President.

As a previous Catholic who still holds a lot of love and respect for Catholics, I can tell you this is not true. Catholics pray to Mary and all their Saints to intercede on their behalf. LDS do not, at any time, ever do that. You can find Catholic prayer books asking Saint <enter name of Saint here> to help them. LDS only pray to God. Not even to Jesus Christ. Only to God - in the name of Christ. You will never hear an LDS pray, "Dear Joseph Smith...".

Catholics hold statues of these personages sacred. They even believe in the miraculous events that are invoked by these statues. There's the Virgin of Fatima, the Lady of Lourdes, etc. etc. where Catholics flock to get "healing powers" and holy water, sacred oils, etc. from - and even to witness other miracles like blood coming out of the eyes and hands of the Blessed Virgin statue. I have never heard of any LDS treat anything about Joseph Smith or any of the prophets this way. Yes, they walk through the Carthage jail and get overcome by the spirit when they do so. It is more like experiencing awe on your first glance of the Mona Lisa in Paris than the miraculous healing of the Lourdes.

And I have never heard of an LDS say they "worship" Joseph Smith. As a matter of fact, missionaries go out of their way to explain that they do not worship Joseph Smith to investigators on the 1st discussion.

[Just_A_Guy]

You'll not see many statues for these prophets/teachers. Very few Jews or Protestants I've run into get emotional when describing the sacrifices of these men.

This is true; but Mormonism has the added bonuses of 1) abundant extra-scriptural sources documenting the lives of early LDS leaders generally, and Joseph Smith in particular; 2) those sources happen to be the native language of the plurality of practicing Mormons; and 3) Mormonism was founded recently; and people with personal memories of Joseph Smith continued to lead Mormonism well into the twentieth century.

Perhaps when Mormonism has aged another century or two, we won't dwell on the life of Joseph Smith (or our past persecutions) quite so much as we do now. By contrast, perhaps the Church around Constantine's day dwelt a lot more on the sacrifices of Peter, Paul, and the other Martyrs than Protestantism does today.

But for many, it was an experience at an altar, at which we confessed our sins to God, accepted Jesus into our hearts, and were quickly instructed that the Bible is our manual for our new life. We were told that it was the Bible's words that convicted us, with the Holy Spirit, of course.

Similarly, for the last thirty years the Mormon missionary effort has revolved around what sets us apart from Christian sects--our view of Joseph Smith as a latter-day prophet of God. There's nothing wrong with this, but one of the side-effects is that we often take "investigators" who perhaps aren't particularly spiritual and lack a history of frequent prayer, and we ask them to create/renew a relationship with God while simultaneously seeking a witness of Joseph Smith. As the relationship with God awakens, there's always going to be a special (and perhaps inordinate) fondness for whatever the catalyst to that relationship happened to be--whether it be Joseph Smith, the Bible itself, or a perceived healing at a Catholic holy site.

It's like a newborn baby bonding with the midwife who delivered it and even, to some degree, confusing the midwife for the mother.