Justice Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Good post, anatess.And I have never heard of an LDS say they "worship" Joseph Smith.I never have either, but I am not willing to call lattellady a liar. She has not shown to be one. I can only suppose that the LDS who say they do are misinformed or don't realize just how flat wrong they are. If we worshipped Joseph Smith I wouldn't be a member.In fact, Joseph Smith battled this argument many times himself. He was very clear on who we worship. I always go back to the Book of Mormon writers for clarity:2 Nephi 25: 26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.Jacob 1: 7 Wherefore we labored diligently among our people, that we might persuade them to come unto Christ, and partake of the goodness of God, that they might enter into his rest, lest by any means he should swear in his wrath they should not center in, as in the provocation in the days of temptation while the children of Israel were in the wilderness.Omni 1: 26 26 And now, my beloved brethren, I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved.Moroni 10: 30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing. • • • 32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Here's the difference. Mormons would say that Joseph Smith has no bearing on the salvation of those in the dispensation of Noah, Adam, Moses, Abraham, etc. But for those who lived at the time of Moses, for example, and followed him to the promised land, he was a vital figure in their salvation. That said, only Jesus Christ is the savior of the world, all people, past and present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lattelady Posted December 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 This quote from D&C gives me, as a non-member a sense that Joseph Smith is deserving of worship, in the minds and hearts of LDS members: "Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any other man that has ever lived in it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 You look at it as worship, we look at it as praise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 (edited) I suppose one could argue the term "worship" as I've heard it used in "I worship the ground she/he walks on." But when it comes as to whether we worship Joseph Smith or praise him in the same way as Jesus Christ...no. We will be forever grateful to him for restoring the Church back on the earth. Other than Jesus Christ giving his life for us, yes no one has done more for mankind than Joseph Smith. Yet we don't pray to Joseph Smith, we don't to go Church each Sunday to worship him. We pray to God the father and we attend Church to worship Him and Jesus Christ. Edited December 27, 2009 by pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor2112 Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 This quote from D&C gives me, as a non-member a sense that Joseph Smith is deserving of worship, in the minds and hearts of LDS members:"Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world than any other man that has ever lived in it."Read the entire section. Honestly and respectfully, you have read and surely you understand....we do not worship Joseph Smith. At some point, you should say, "thanks for clearing that up for me...." rather than continuing on a course that will just lead to agitated posts from patience worn members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lattelady Posted December 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Truly, honestly and respectfully I do not understand. I could say that I do, just to avoid your frustration, but have read from the Journal of Discourses, for instance; I read that in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven, people will have to have Joseph's forgiveness for sins-- his and Brigham Young's: that the Lord gave those two prophets the authority to forgive sins. I read other parts of the Journal of Discourses that refer to Joseph and Jesus in the same light, in reference to mankind's salvation. Even the article that was posted in the gospel forum that talked about remembering Joseph at Christmastime gives the impression that he and Jesus are on the same level. Do you understand where I'm coming from at all? I just believe with all my heart that God alone us worthy of our worship, reverence and honor. As I look at the Old Testament prophets, their message was to be listened to and obeyed, but they weren't to be praised. They were simply God's mouthpiece, His vessel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Even the article that was posted in the gospel forum that talked about remembering Joseph at Christmastime gives the impression that he and Jesus are on the same level.*Gasp*Remembering a historical figure on their birthday! What villainy is next!Joseph Smith born December 23rd.Jesus Christ (celebrated on) December 25th.Yeah, that line Bytor was talking about? You just blew passed it doing 75 mph in an active school zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I read that in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven, people will have to have Joseph's forgiveness for sins-- his and Brigham Young's: that the Lord gave those two prophets the authority to forgive sins. Many of my fellow posters have pointed out that the Journal of Discourses is not Canon for the LDS Church. Can we not conceive that some self-aggrandizement (which we have all done from time to time) or hyperbole can enter into one's Journal?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lattelady Posted December 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Moksha, is the portion of the Journal of Discourses that I mentioned not to be taken literally, then? Joseph and Brigham Young aren't actually given that kind of authority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 As I look at the Old Testament prophets, their message was to be listened to and obeyed, but they weren't to be praised. Honestly have you read anything anyone has posted? I could say that Moses was one of the greatest Prophets in the Old Testament. I could praise him all day long..but that doesn't mean I worship him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 No, it's as if she's going to believe what she wants to believe. I don't understand why one would go through the motions of asking a question they already had their mind made up about... unless it was for some alterior motive. Lattlelady, when did you start reading the Journal of Discourses? I haven't even read but a small part of it and I've been a member for 36 years. What anti-Mormon site are you visiting, or who is giving you this "ammunition?" And, the million dollar question, why are you wasting your time with the JoD when all we asked for you to read was the Book of Mormon? We told you it was the keystone, and that if it's true then the Church is true, if it's not then the Church is not true. But, if you're going to read it with a closed mind, much like your state of mind when you asked us this question, it won't do any good. You have to actually want to know the truth, instead of wanting what you believe to be true that you just look for fault, or a reason why it's not true. You know, it's amazing to me how you can accept the Bible on faith with it's many mistakes and sinful people, but you will not give the Book of Mormon writers a chance for the same reasons (according to your belief). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I am once again amazed at someone who claims to not know much about the church would stop and read Journal of Discourses....you know latte...we won't agree with you and you won't agree with us....so whats the point??? we just gonna keep going back and forth.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Moksha, is the portion of the Journal of Discourses that I mentioned not to be taken literally, then? Joseph and Brigham Young aren't actually given that kind of authority? if we answer the question what difference would it make to you....your just gonna keep arguing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Truly, honestly and respectfully I do not understand. I could say that I do, just to avoid your frustration, but have read from the Journal of Discourses, for instance; I read that in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven, people will have to have Joseph's forgiveness for sins-- his and Brigham Young's: that the Lord gave those two prophets the authority to forgive sins. I read other parts of the Journal of Discourses that refer to Joseph and Jesus in the same light, in reference to mankind's salvation. Even the article that was posted in the gospel forum that talked about remembering Joseph at Christmastime gives the impression that he and Jesus are on the same level. Do you understand where I'm coming from at all? I just believe with all my heart that God alone us worthy of our worship, reverence and honor. As I look at the Old Testament prophets, their message was to be listened to and obeyed, but they weren't to be praised. They were simply God's mouthpiece, His vessel.how many journal of discourses do you own???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moksha Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Moksha, is the portion of the Journal of Discourses that I mentioned not to be taken literally, then? Joseph and Brigham Young aren't actually given that kind of authority? My giving opinion for or against a speculative assertion really doesn't amount to much. The LDS idea that we are behind a veil (looking through a glass darkly as Apostle Paul put it, or seeing the shadows on the cave wall as Socrates would say) seems a good one. Upon piercing the veil we will be accorded the opportunity to know more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lattelady Posted December 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 The Journal of Discourses is LDS writings, correct? They aren't considered "anti", are they? If they contain writings that need some clarification, or some commentary, why would you be up in arms if a nonmember wanted an explanation(from people who would know best--lds) about what exactly the writing means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Let's go back to your OP. Your question was:Are other prophets praised/worshipped as well? Several have answered no. Therefore your question is answered. Your OP asked nothing about the JOD or even remotely alluded to it.As always, you bring up other things to further your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I wonder why a person asking questions trying to attack my faith would not answer the previous questions without gtting up in arms... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 The Journal of Discourses is LDS writings, correct? They aren't considered "anti", are they? If they contain writings that need some clarification, or some commentary, why would you be up in arms if a nonmember wanted an explanation(from people who would know best--lds) about what exactly the writing means?I don't believe you have read the journal of discourses....I think as I have stated in the past,you get your questions from anti sites or literature...my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pam Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Shoot I've been a member for 53 years and I've never read a page out of the JOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Moksha, is the portion of the Journal of Discourses that I mentioned not to be taken literally, then? Joseph and Brigham Young aren't actually given that kind of authority?Did Peter, James, and John hold that kind of authority?We already discussed the scripture where Christ gave them the authortiy to bind and loose in heaven. You seemed to ignore that scripture.So, how about Paul? Did Paul have the authority to forgive sins?2 Corinthians 2: 10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;God does give authority to man to act in His name. You claim to believe the Bible, so believe it. Christ clearly gave the Apostles authority to speak and act in His name, and as Paul shows us here, even the ability to use the discernment of the Holy Ghost to forgive sins. Don't confuse that with paying for their sins... they cannot. But, through revelation, one having the Priesthood of God and the proper keys ordained on them, can act in Christ's name. If your church does not claim this authority, then it cannot be the true and living church of Christ.So, we're back to modern days... did God the Father and Jesus Christ appear to man in these last days? Well, the only way to know for sure is to read the Book of Mormon with a sincere desire to know the truth, regardless of what the consequences are, and pray about it.Why would He reveal the truth to someone so unwilling to believe it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 answer the questions asked of you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Shoot I've been a member for 53 years and I've never read a page out of the JOD. you mean you don't own any???? :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Also Justice, don't forget there is Biblical (and Book of Mormon) precedent for Christ delegating his authority to render Judgement. See Matthew 18:29, Luke 22:30, 1 Ne 12:9 and Mormon 3:18-19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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