'Rain Man' has been a missionary his whole life


Hemidakota
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I do not agree with the aspect of Fred's own parental advice his son does not require baptism. Yes Fred! Even the greatest person ever lived on this planet, Jesus the Christ, required the same saving ordinances to enter back into the FATHER's realm and he was perfect being.

I do love Lawrence for his pure love for others and how he treats learning. He will be missed.

ARTICLE LINK: MormonTimes - 'Rain Man' has been a missionary his whole life

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Actually policy is that those who aren't accountable (children [this one is doctrine not just policy] and the mentally retarded) are not baptised, at least as I understand it. So it isn't like he's pulling it out of nowhere. Of course the question is, "Was he accountable at least on the level of an 8 year old?" That is a question I'm not qualified to answer.

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Wow, that's very interesting! I had no idea.

I would think there's only a couple reasons why one wouldn't be baptised (a) they choose not to and or (b) they fear the actual process of it? I'm referring to those much like some of the autistic individuals I know. Many of them fear bathing and just getting them to wash is an ordeal in itself.

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This is new to me also. I'm not surprised the movie writers withheld this part of the story.

I'm somewhere between Dravin and Hemi on this. Establishing whether or not an adult is accountable isn't always black and white. If there's any chance he might be, I don't see a harm in baptizing him. The key may stem from whether or not he desired to be baptized. Typically when one feels accountable they will desire baptism, if not, it may never enter their mind. I think the parents feelings may be accurate on this since they know him better than anyone.

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Wow, that's very interesting! I had no idea.

I would think there's only a couple reasons why one wouldn't be baptised (a) they choose not to and or (b) they fear the actual process of it? I'm referring to those much like some of the autistic individuals I know. Many of them fear bathing and just getting them to wash is an ordeal in itself.

My wife is an Autism specialist, and I agree it would be extremely traumatic to force an autistic child to be baptized. It is also kind of unnecessary. Do we really think someone who can only reason on a 5 year old level needs to be baptized, regardless of actual age?

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This is new to me also. I'm not surprised the movie writers withheld this part of the story.

I'm somewhere between Dravin and Hemi on this. Establishing whether or not an adult is accountable isn't always black and white. If there's any chance he might be, I don't see a harm in baptizing him. The key may stem from whether or not he desired to be baptized. Typically when one feels accountable they will desire baptism, if not, it may never enter their mind. I think the parents feelings may be accurate on this since they know him better than anyone.

I tend to agree. I think the father and mother would be in the best position to judge a situation like this. Additionally it seems the father was an associate with President Monson, and as such likely sought counsel on the issue. I think it is rather unwise to questions the parent's position in this case. It is easy to criticize from afar, which is why we should not do it.

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Adults with disabilities are NOT eternal children and they should be treated according to their real age.

My wife is a very well educated Autism specialist and she would never say this. How can you claim to know what someone's "real" age is?

Thank you for posting the article Hemi! I'll use it as an example for a disability course I'm teaching.

That would be a false lesson.

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Adults with disabilities are NOT eternal children and they should be treated according to their real age.

Omaha is right. You can't treat someone who is mentally equivalent to a 4 year old like a 40 year old. It doesn't even make sense.

My mother is (was before she retired early this year) a specialized caregiver to people who are very underdeveloped mentally. She had 4 different people live in her home (at different times) and she cared for them. I spent a significant amount of time around these people in her home, as I was still living at home when she took on her first client.

I can tell you with surety, these 4 did not understand right and wrong and were "little children" in every way, but bigger. They had no need of baptism because a person must understand the covenants that are made with the ordinance, and be capable of repentance. In order to do that you have to be free to choose good and evil. One who doesn't understand the difference is not free to choose. The Lord severely chastized the people in the Book of Mormon who were baptizing little children.

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How can you claim to know what someone's "real" age is?

By their birthday....if they are 40 yrs old, they should treated as an adult. I'm not here to argue but I believe that adults with disabilities should be treated as adults with dignity and respect.

That would be a false lesson.

No the article is a great example of how society has historically viewed persons with disabilities as eternal children/holy innocents.

Edited by Celica
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I can tell you with surety, these 4 did not understand right and wrong and were "little children" in every way, but bigger. They had no need of baptism because a person must understand the covenants that are made with the ordinance, and be capable of repentance. In order to do that you have to be free to choose good and evil. One who doesn't understand the difference is not free to choose. The Lord severely chastized the people in the Book of Mormon who were baptizing little children.

We can't talk for them or say we know what's going on in their mind. Really its between them and God. I know that God is loving & just and that everything works out in the end. :0)

Edited by Celica
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How can you claim to know what someone's "real" age is?

By their birthday....if they are 40 yrs old, they should treated as an adult. I'm not here to argue but I believe that adults with disabilities should be treated as adults with dignity and respect.

That would be a false lesson.

It's easy to claim what someone's real mental capacity is. By the things they can do, what they can learn, the level they are at.

I have a friend who has a son who is in his 30's but mentally he has the capacity of a 3 year old. Though he's over 6' tall and is a man in every other way..he is still a child and unfortunately how he has to be treated. That's not being mean or disrespectful..but being logical and being realistic.

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Not being able to understand the concept of baptism, would seem to be a deciding factor in whether or not to baptize someone. If their reaction to the process of baptism was one of apprehension or fear, what would the benefit of the pro-forma baptism be?

The promise of such individuals being able to achieve celestial glory in spite of their handicap seems to be sufficient.

:)

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I got a question....someone told me once that after we die we are resurrected to a perfect body. Like let’s say you lost an arm during this life, you'll have it back in the next. Would the same concept work for an adult with a disability? If it did, wouldn’t they be able to make a decision about baptism in the afterlife....like if someone did proxy for them?

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I got a question....someone told me once that after we die we are resurrected to a perfect body. Like let’s say you lost an arm during this life, you'll have it back in the next. Would the same concept work for an adult with a disability? If it did, wouldn’t they be able to make a decision about baptism in the afterlife....like if someone did proxy for them?

Just as an FYI, the Church has a disabilities website...

Home

...Which has a FAQ section about baptism. It says...

Q: What are the guidelines as to whether or not a child with an intellectual disability may be baptized?

A:

This is a matter between parents, the child, and local priesthood leaders. If the child has a basic understanding of gospel principles and wishes to be baptized, then baptism may be possible.

Home - Disability Resources - Frequently Asked Questions - Doctrines and policies

Hemi's criticism is both unfounded, it is doctrinally incorrect. The parents' choice was the right one.

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1. You have to understand what is baptism all about to be baptized and you have to have an understanding of the concept of right and wrong. This is something a child develops before he/she gets 8 years old. If this understanding is not there, a person cannot be baptized, because that would be the same thing as baptizing little babies.

2. Any person who dies at an age over 8 will receive the temple ordinances, no matter if this person has been mentally handicapped (see NFS Users Guide: Ordinances can be provided without regard to worthiness, mental ability, or cause of death).

So even if a person is not baptized during his/her lifetime, all ordinances will be provided vor him/her!!!

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His mental state was exceptional even for someone had autism and knowledge exceeds anyone here on this forum. But he cannot and will not enter into the lowest of order of the Celestial Kingdom without the saving ordinance called BAPTISM. Simply put, he knew what it means to be baptized and whether or not his father chose otherwise, still prevents him from enter into highest kingdom. It matters not whether he does associate with the President Monson or not, it is Lord Kingdom and ordinances are eternal.

Now, the policy for any mental handicap illness where there is reasonable capacity of choosing, who is also responsible and accountable can be baptized. Only in the cases where there is no capacity of repenting (See D&C 137:10, Moroni 8:8-12) are excepted and their works will be done by proxy.

See Church Handbook of Instruction 2006, 2008, and 2010 version for details.

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I got a question....someone told me once that after we die we are resurrected to a perfect body. Like let’s say you lost an arm during this life, you'll have it back in the next. Would the same concept work for an adult with a disability? If it did, wouldn’t they be able to make a decision about baptism in the afterlife....like if someone did proxy for them?

There are different levels of glorified bodies children of the FATHER will received after judgment. Even in the Celestial Kingdom there are still variants of what we receive. Example, [see D&C 76] if one compare a those who inherit the highest order of the Celestial Kingdom (those are called Church of the First-born) will exceed those of the lesser Terrestrial, and Telestial and the Telestial and Terrestrial cannot reside in the same presence of those are Celestial due to the glorified body received.

Those who enter into Paradise will receive back the former knowledge of his/her past and the mental disability will be no more. A good case and point, for those who are cerapalsy will have the same capacity to walk, function, and think as we do. Even to watch and chose their own proxy baptism in the temple.

Now what is strange, children less than the age of eight, will still retain the body of a child but will have adult intelligence capacity. Even more stranger, the clothing we die with goes with us…. :confused:

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His mental state was exceptional even for someone had autism

That's not true. First Mr. Peek did not have autism. I thought you might want to know that before passing judgment on him.

and knowledge exceeds anyone here on this forum.

Not true either. His powers of recall exceeded most people, but this did not translate to easy application of this information. Knowledge also requires application of information.

But he cannot and will not enter into the lowest of order of the Celestial Kingdom without the saving ordinance called BAPTISM.

You are free to believe this, but the Church disagrees with you.

Simply put, he knew what it means to be baptized and whether or not his father chose otherwise

This is not true either. Additionally you are hardly in a position to judge what he did or did not understand. His father, on the other hand, and President Monson, who was a friend of his father, was in a much greater position to judge this.

Your position of Ark steadier is neither moral, ethical, nor doctrinal.

still prevents him from enter into highest kingdom. It matters not whether he does associate with the President Monson or not, it is Lord Kingdom and ordinances are eternal.

And we can all give thanks that you are neither judge nor advocate.

Now, the policy for any mental handicap illness where there is reasonable capacity of choosing, who is also responsible and accountable can be baptized. Only in the cases where there is no capacity of repenting (See D&C 137:10, Moroni 8:8-12) are excepted and their works will be done by proxy.

And your ability to judge that capacity is nonexistent.

See Church Handbook of Instruction 2006, 2008, and 2010 version for details.

And to think the friend of Mr. Peeks father, President Monson, must have been unaware of the CHI. I am sure the President would appreciate your thoughts on this matter!!!

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Oh my! I won't bother to continue here. But before I close here, I don't believe or recall anything that President Monson publically or stated in any media stated this is ok. But thankyou for the correction and he did have intellectual disability. As I also see, you either have not read the CHI or may not understand the church position on the matter of baptism concerning those of mental disability.

Last, as to use the statement of the CHURCH concerning the how ones enter into the Celestial Kingdom, I would refer you back to the your own Bishop or Stake President for further instruction on this matter.

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Now what is strange, children less than the age of eight, will still retain the body of a child but will have adult intelligence capacity. Even more stranger, the clothing we die with goes with us…. :confused:

As far as I remember: Parents will have the opportunity to see their children who died as such raise up to be adults... they will not remain in bodies of children throughout eternity.

Who says that the clothing will go with us? Where is this to be found in the scriptures? Never heard of that so far!

:confused::confused::confused:

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I was only referring to the state of returning back in growing up so they can inherit what is their for eternalty. Maybe I was too clear on this... I do believe even Emma Smith has the opporunity to raise her birth children who died before the age of accountability.

Something you need to pray or see for yourself...just an observation here.

Maybe that is why we have the RELIEF SOCIETY across the veil. :lol:

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I was only referring to the state of returning back in growing up so they can inherit what is their for eternalty. Maybe I was too clear on this... I do believe even Emma Smith has the opporunity to raise her birth children who died before the age of accountability.

Something you need to pray or see for yourself...just an observation here.

Maybe that is why we have the RELIEF SOCIETY across the veil. :lol:

If this was meant as a reply to my post - sorry, being a stupid little German I do not get the meaning...

And just an addition: If our clothing goes with us, what happen to people who don't wear any clothing when being buried? Will they remain in that state for eternity?

And what about relief society? anything you want to say concerning my gender?:eek:

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Oh my! I won't bother to continue here. But before I close here, I don't believe or recall anything that President Monson publically or stated in any media stated this is ok.

How can you dictate to others what doctrine is because of your visions but fail to understand that if President Monson and Mr. Peeks father were friends the likely at some point discussed Mr. Peek's baptismal status?

Also as I quoted above, the decision to baptize a mentally handicapped individual is with the parents. I am sure had you been the parent, Mr. Peek would have been baptized, regardless of the trauma he might have experienced. We can all be happy this was not the case, however.

But thankyou for the correction and he did have intellectual disability. As I also see, you either have not read the CHI or may not understand the church position on the matter of baptism concerning those of mental disability.

I actually quoted it. The Church has a website specifically for those associated with mentally disabled in the Church, and my wife is an Autism specialist. I have far more association this this subject than most.

For those not feeling the need to dictate to others what salvic ordinances they denied their mentally handicapped child, the Church is actually very attentive to special needs children. If you have one, or need information for someone in your ward, special programs are available including manuals.

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The Church has stated that those unaccountable do not need to be baptised - no matter what their actual age is. We had a man in the ward I was baptised into that functioned at about a 5 year olds level, the Church stated since he is not accountable and never would be there was no need for access.

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