D&c 89:13

[lds4ever]

I was reading about the word of wisdom today and I remembered the class room discussions about eating meat sparingly. I noticed that the classes never talked much about verses 13 & 15.

I know vegans & vegetarians have a negative rep., but the lord in chapter 13 states:

And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

Since we are not in the same situation as the people in 1833, we have warm homes, and are not experiencing famine... would it not please the lord to avoid meat completely?

And #15: And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

Refering more to wild animals.

I am not vegan or vegetarian, but I thought it was interesting nobody goes much into it.

Edited December 31, 2009 by lds4ever

[Justice]

If you isolate verses 13 and 15 it seems you are right. But, if you include verse 12 I think the Lord is being as clear as He can be.

D&C 89:

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

I think what you're saying is like reasoning that if we are asked to pay 10% of our increase for tithing, wouldn't it be btter to pay 15% or more?

I know we don't want to get caught trying to do the minimum, but you also have to use all the scriptures given to arrive at the best conclusion. With the inclusion of verse 12 I believe the Lord states it exactly the way He intended.

I don't think that means the Lord is offended if someone chooses to be a vegetarian. It just means the Lord approves the use of "flesh of beasts and fouls of the air" as food for man, in moderation and with thanksgiving. So, I don't think the Lord is "more pleased" if we choose not to eat meat at all, but is more pleased when we do it with thanksgiving, and without gorging it.

[lds4ever]

I don't think I took it out of context. I agree that he states that they are for our use and thanksgiving, but he also makes it clear that they should only be used in times of need. When not a necessity, there isn't a good reason to eat it. The tithing comment isn't a good comparison to the point I was making.

He also mentions the following in D&C 49:

18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance

It just seemed pretty clear that he wanted them to be used during specific times. Those are just my thoughts.

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

Edited December 31, 2009 by lds4ever

[Justice]

Fair enough.

I guess your use of the term "vegetarian" multiple times came across as not eating meat at all, which is different than eating it sparingly with thanksgiving.

I agree, though, that I think most people eat way too much meat. One of my favorite meals is a good, fresh salad.

[lds4ever]

my bad.

[stormwitch]

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

I really like this question!!! Thank you lds4ever!

To me it seems like eating meat is ok if we eat not more than necessary, and necessary is defined as times of winter, cold or famine. (12,13)

And 14, 15 makes me think of hunting -- and this is only ok in times of famine and excess of hunger... and I would therefore say: not at all in countries like North America or Europe. (unless a biotope has to be put into a balance after having been disturbed by human behavior... as usual... ;-))

But imho there is nothing to be found in the Word of Wisdom, that would sustain any abstinence of eggs or milk products or the use of leather.

[MarginOfError]

I don't think I took it out of context. I agree that he states that they are for our use and thanksgiving, but he also makes it clear that they should only be used in times of need. When not a necessity, there isn't a good reason to eat it. The tithing comment isn't a good comparison to the point I was making.

He also mentions the following in D&C 49:

18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance

It just seemed pretty clear that he wanted them to be used during specific times. Those are just my thoughts.

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

Allow me to post something else not taken out of context.

And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance. (Doctrine and Covenants 49)

When you consider the scriptures in their entirety, the interpretation Justice provided appears to be the most accurate.

[john doe]

If God didn't want us to eat meat at all He wouldn't have made it so tasty.

[Relentless]

If God didn't want us to eat meat at all He wouldn't have made it so tasty.

I love those vegetarrian bumper stickers that say "If God didn't want us to eat humans, why are they made out of MEAT". I have always wanted to go up and bite one of the people who sport this bumper sticker, and then when they get mad, say "Hey, I'm only following God's will as you interpet it".

On a more serrious note, if we start in 10 and read through 17,

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

So we get wheat, cows get corn, oats go to horses and the birds and pigs get rye, but all useful animals get barley. I guess we have to stop having cornbread, corn on the cob, oatmeal, oatmeal cookies, reuben sandwiches, rye toast etc. So the people like my dad who have celiac sprue are REALLY screwwed, as they are allergic to wheat glutens. Hm, I wonder why rice wasn't mentioned...

[mightynancy]

I pretty much agree with the OP. The Word of Wisdom does advocate a nearly-vegetarian diet. I think too many of us abide by the "don't's" or the WoW but neglect the "do's".

[Justice]

If God didn't want us to eat meat at all He wouldn't have made it so tasty.

I was going to say if God did not want us to eat meat at all He would have said so, but your quote is more entertaining. :)

[mrmarklin]

Eating meat should also be looked at in the context of the times in which the revelation was given.

In pre refrigeration times, meat was a luxury, and cattle sheep etc were used more for their byproducts (milk, wool etc.) and not primarily eaten as they are today. Many of the foods we love today such as cheese, pastrami, ham, bacon were ways of preserving animal products in the northern climes so that there would be food through the winter when the vegetables and grains that were raised in the summer ran out. And of course animals would be slaughtered should the need arise in winter. Unless you lived in a large populated area you would not kill your cow only for meat, as there would be too much of it and it would spoil. Much of the harvest was lost in those days due to the lack of storage technology as well, so people did not have the abundance that we take for granted. Only a relative few lived substantially above subsistance level.

So eating meat sparingly was just good general advice for living and good livestock management for a largely agrarian economy.

[GaySaint]

"And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

I actually had a seminary teacher once tell me that the comma after the word "used" was included by accident, and that if read without the comma, the meaning changes completely.

I don't know if this guy was up in the night or not, but I do find it interesting that the meaning changes so completely with a simple punctuation mark. Anyone else hear this growing up?

[ozzy]

To Gaysaint: I haven't heard that before to be honest. While it does place it on par with the scriptures condemning those who forbid meats, I would still be very careful determining what is and is not supposed to be in modern scripture. The prophet alone has that right and power even when the matter is as simple as punctuation.

My view on the whole meat thing is this. When the WoW was first given, it was not a commandment, it was advice. Sometime since, it became a commandment. Personally I do not think that the whole thing became a commandment and this is why. First, you are not kept out of the temple for the dietary parts of it, only for taking in the forbidden. Second, I looked in Preach My Gospel, and the missionaries do not cover the diet part in detail. The best reference they are supposed to make is that we must eat healthily. Meat is healthy when eaten correctly as it does contain various essentials. So my thoughts are that the 'eat meat sparingly' part is more advice than a commandment. Personally I do know that if I eat too much in one go I get sick, but thats true of any food other than vegetables for me.

[anorgran]

Actually gaysaint is right. the comma was a punctual error that was added when the Doctrine and Covenants was first divided into columns in 1920. If we look at the original addition (which i have)we see what was originally said.

"And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine,"

[but at other times as well.] That verse is now in perfect accord with D&C 49:19.

If, according to D&C 89 we are to eat meat sparingly, why does the Mormon Church promote the use of meat in its various functions? | Ask Gramps

[slamjet]

BBQ!

Wait, is that BeefChe I see?

[Guest jamesmax]

Interestingly, in the JST of Genesis 9:11, "And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands."

In regards to the comma or not in D&C 89:13, the church has always changed the current version of the scriptures to be the most accurate. The comma is there now.

Even if the comma were not there in verse 13, verse 15 clarifies it and has never had commas, "And these hath God made for the use of many only in times of famine and excess of hunger"?

I think the JST of Genesis 9 above makes it clear. Either way, remember that Daniel in the bible didn't eat meat and was blessed in many ways for it (read Daniel chapter 1).

If you want to know more about whether we should eat meat sparingly, check out my website at Eat Meat Sparingly